Russian Sub

[Bliss]

I can't help thinking there for, that there's got to be a balance between the two. The solution to this sort of catastrophe, in my humble opinion, would be to have a sort of international rescue agency designed around just this sort of event.

At least then, everybody would see it as their job, and nobody would think it was interference, and of course it would be funded by the world.

Carl.

Carl, the organization that you are describing does exist, in part, as the United Nations. However, when all the members Nations unite for any certain cause, some grumblings can be heard about America(!) always putting our nose where it doesn't belong. That leaves the Red Cross and private agencies, like various missionary groups and ex-Navy Seal vigilantes, to try to fill in the gaps. Not exactly reassuring to those caught in crises.

~~~~~
Also, even if there aren't nuclear weapons on that sub, there are nuclear reactors aboard, and if they are comprimised... Chernobyl revisited. For that reason alone, we should have been more involved right from the start. I think the whole world can do without radioactive sperm whales

 

[Skitten]

You know everyone feels bad about the sub to a point, but some of you are taking it way too seriously. By lashing out on others opinions just because you don't agree doesn't mean that the other person is wrong in their beliefs. And it doesn't give them a right to talk like they are better.

We all feel for the families and the loved ones of theese sailors, but Russia waited too long to ask for help anyway.
If they were more concerned about theese men than about their security maybe this could have been prevented or a rescue way before now could have been done.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion and none of us has the right to think they don't have feelings. They just have beliefs that may differ from others.

 

[Carl East]

I can't help thinking there for, that there's got to be a balance between the two. The solution to this sort of catastrophe, in my humble opinion, would be to have a sort of international rescue agency designed around just this sort of event.

At least then, everybody would see it as their job, and nobody would think it was interference, and of course it would be funded by the world.

Carl.

Carl, the organization that you are describing does exist, in part, as the United Nations. However, when all the members Nations unite for any certain cause, some grumblings can be heard about America(!)

Actually Payne, I was thinking more of an entire world organizastion, with each country contributing in whatever way seemed best. Besides, the united nations haven't got the sort of equipment needed for this type of disaster.

Carl.

 

[Weird Harold]

Ok, so even if the Russians had accepted our help, it still would've taken longer than it took England to get a sub over there to help out.

Not true. The USN Deep Sea Resue Unit can deploy to any point on Earth in 48 hours with no notice. They are equipped and trained to be "Air Mobile" unlike other countries DSRUs that require sealift at some point.

According to the Secretary of Defense, the unit is on alert, and can be on site in 24 hours if requested. (As of Friday noon's press conference.

It saddens me that the need to be "self sufficient" and national pride delayed that rapid deployment capability until it's too late for the crew. I'm also sympathetic to the men of the USN DSRU who must be feeling very badly about the politics that kept them from doing what they were trained and equipped to do.

 

[Morgoth]

Brand new news:

I was watching the news the other day. They said that that the midsection of the sub had developed a hole and was flooded. That means almost everybody on board was killed but it also means that there was so much oxygen left that the other crew members might still be alive. So there's good news and bad. Also, everybody is entitled to their opinion, so please don't talk like that to someone because of their opinion. Just a few words from the new Guru on the block.

 

[Guest]

Wizard - I'm not registered 'cos, well, I'm not registered. Just passing through, and I saw a topic that interested me, so I decided to do a guest post. I figured that it's not really worth registering given most of the time I just lurk. And this is the handle I normally use, on ICQ, and other BBSs.

Apologies for putting my opinion so... bluntly. I think a bottle and a half of wine had taken their toll. I do still stand by the opinion however. And as for the UN, AFAIK when it was formed, there was actually supposed to be a UN standing army with rescue capabilities etc. But who wants to pay for it? And no one wants to "lend out" their troops without total control over where they may go and die, perhaps not even serving a direct national interest. That's why we have the current cobbled-together system where UN operations really live or die by whether different countries are willing to put the troops in, often after the length of debate in that country over their willingness to contribute has rendered the idea of sending in troops obsolete, or far more ineffective anyway. That, and countries disagreements overshadow efforts such as the rescue effor for this sub. The level of mistrust between the US and Russia is probably one of the reasons why US assets were not deployed, and instead British and Norwegian equipment was used.
You all know my opinion on this sort of thing, and it's pretty much diametrically opposed to Wizard's opinion. There it is, I hope others agree with me.

As for the sub, the latest is that deep sea divers are down there examining escape hatches (they seem to have been damaged, meaning the British mini-sub may be useless anyway) and attempting to determine the pressure inside the Kursk. This is a pretty key question as to whether the submariners are alive - the Russians have said that they believe the remaining sections had been compromised and possibly flooded too. Very little hope for survivors, I'm afraid. :-(

MM
---
"We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and every patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union when again touched as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."
-Abraham Lincoln, The First Inaugural

I'd like to think that can be applied universally to us as a race, rather than simply to Americans. That's how I read it, anyway.

 

[Handy-Andy]

Norwegian divers have inspected the escape hatch and have found it not to be badly damged and might be possable to open.

Spokesman John Espen Lien speaking after the divers had inspected the hatch contridicted russian divers who said it who have to be ripped off.

quote "it should be possable to open it using a uk or russian rescue capsule.

Not havin ago at you wizard but would the USA have intervened in kuwait if there was no oil to protect ,just a thought.

 

[Savage Kitten]

you know.. i've been checking back and forth here.. haven't read all the posts... so i don't know if this has been pointed out yet but.... the USA was not informed right away.. from what I understand the russians didn't want our help... nor the help of some other countries.. .seems to me that they do have something to hide on that sub and even if everyone aboard was determined to be alive i still don't think they would want americans down there 'knowing their business'

maybe.. maybe not... either way.. its still a really sad situation and i'm sorry it had to happen at all

 

[Wizard]

Ok one last time I will jump in and bother everyone by bringing this to the top again then I'm done......I think...

Maniacal Maestro......I welcome the disscusion and input......belive it or not I don't mind you saying what you think this was just MY opinion....I like to talk with folks that reg. alot of times "Members" that don't have the balls to post under there nick pull that shit by post under another.....For that comment I am sorry however I still feel the same and Knew I would get shit for it but thats just me , and how I feel about it.......I tought it was a good topic and did what I did.......


Handy Andy......everthing is cool .......In answer to your question I hope they wouldn't have but I bet they would have........What I been told is we don't get much from them anyhow.......I'm not trying to start a fight here but "We" the US stickes it's nose in alot of places it don't belong.....Plan and simple.....again my opinion....

 

[Handy-Andy]

Everytning's cool wizard no problem it was just a thought not at you personnally *passing ya a big fat blifter*.
Lets just hope if theres a chance somebody's still alive they can be saved.

 

[Xander]

Update!!

To you who haven't heard it yet.
They just announced on the news, that a rescue team have managed to open the escape hatch in the sub. But they found nothing there but water. And no sign of life what so ever.

Personally I think they're all dead now. Not mane can survive at the bottom of the sea, with no heat, no food and no drinkable water.

Sad but true.

 

[Slut_boy]

That is so sad Xander.

I hope that no-one is offended by this post (it's not meant to be), but the way that Xander said that "all they found ....." reminded me of a similar experience - when they opened John Lennon's coffin - and "all they found was a dead beatle".

Oops, didn't mean to be in bad form. I do certainly consider the sub crisis a terrible loss, the tragedy is that it was perhaps a loss that could have been avoided (as so many on this thread have already pointed out).

 

[Xander]

It is a terrible loss, S_B. But regardless of what anybody could have done. I sadly believe that it wouldn't have mattered.
The poor guys have either drowned, killed in the explotion at impact, or been so exposed to radiation that it wouldn't hvae mattered one way or the other.

Still sad but true.

 

[funny_guy]

They now say that no one is alive, that they've given up all hope. Maybe they can still get something from this episode, though. Maybe they can learn from what happened, to prevent it from happening again.

 

[Flagg]

Far too much to catch up on so I admit that I haven't read all four pages of this thread. My thoughts though are:

* Soldiers realise that being a soldier is pretty fucking dangerous when they join up. Endangering your life is all part of the job. (Taking life is part of it too on a side note). I don't wish death upon anyone but the fact that these guys are dead doesn't warrant that much sympathy. They are soldiers for god sake. If they didn't want to risk their lives they should have become insurance clerks not nuclear submarine operators. Its the families that deserve sympathy.

* The good part of this whole saga is that there is one less submarine in the seas. The bad part is the environmetal damage the two explosions have undoubtedly caused.

That's my two rubles worth.

 

[Expertise]

Flagg not all "soldiers" are volunteers. There would be at least a portion who were conscripts on this boat.

Secondly. If you think the Russian are going to leave 30 or 40 warheads and their missiles on the sea floor in a mere 300 ft of water, you are sadly mistaken.

 

[FlamingoBlue]

It is sorta like driving by a car wreck....

Everybody likes watching a tragedy unfold. That's just the way we are.

blue

 

[Guest]

No sub's ever been raised from that depth. Infact, I don't think any sub has ever been raised at all. That, of course, doesn't mean that it's not possible (there's a bid being formulated by some millionaire balooninst person, I fail to remember his name) just that it's liable to be rather difficult and expensive. And the Russian's aren't known for their affluence right now. This isn't the first nuclear sub they've lost, and the last one was never raised (although it was at a deeper depth). I suspect it'll sit on the ocean floor for some time now, if it ever gets raised at all.

As for the conscript issue, yes, Russia does use a lot of them, but the numbers on the Kursk will have been minimal given that it was one of the flagship subs of the Russian navy. The tried to put their best aboard. There'll probably be some, but not too many. Doesn't change it from being a tragedy. I don't think any soldier signs up either wanting to die or wanting to kill - they simply want to serve their country, and valuing their lives any less because they've made that choice is offensive IMO. They knew they might die, or have to kill, but I'm sure they all hoped it would never come to that.

Just my opinion.

MM (now won't that start causing confusion....)

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Soldiers realise that being a soldier is pretty fucking dangerous... the fact that these guys are dead doesn't warrant that much sympathy.

Idiotic, Flagg. So glad you're back.

 

[Bonnie Wee Lassie]

Well it is offical now. It is no longer a rescue mission it is a salvage mission now. They are now going to try and recover the bodies of the men so they may have a proper funeral.

 

[Expertise]

Maestro they (specificly the US) have lifted large sections of subs from far greater depths (actually they lifted an entire Russian sub but ti broke up as it neared the surface.

They will not try to lift Kursk, i'm sure. However they will, and they should, lift the warheads off, if not the missiles.

This (offloading the missiles, rockets in Russian parlance) would be a relatively simple underwater salvage operation, by comparison, were they American missiles. However, depending on the type of rocket carried on this boat it could prove extremely hazardous. Some models of Russian SLBM's are liquid fueled and one of the binary components of this fuel has a rather nasty reaction to seawater. It forms a highly corosive and explosive substance that tends to make the missile/rockets entire fuel supply explode in a rather spectacular manner. Even more spectacular if there was a chain reaction with the other missiles.

As far as the number of conscripts, I am sure it would be a small percentage and that they would be in non-essential tasks. But conscript or volunteer, officer or enlisted they were still human beings and deserved every attempt that was made.

 

[Laurel]

What Expertise said is true - not all soldiers are volunteers, and that's what makes it even more sad. I was really wanted them to find at least one person alive. I just hope they died quickly. The idea od being trapped in a tin can beneath all that water makes my stomach flip.

As far as raising the sub, from MSNBC:

Russian officials said a video camera would be lowered to inspect the inside of the Kursk, and that the emphasis of the operation would turn to raising the Kursk and recovering its two nuclear reactors. Russia insists the reactors were safely shut down as the sub sunk, and Norway has found no sign of radiation leaks.

Russia also plans to make an international appeal for funds to raise the Kursk because of the enormous expense. “Not a single country on its own can handle such an operation,” Deputy Prime Minister Ilya Klebanov was quoted as saying by the ITAR-Tass news agency.

for whole story, go here: http://www.msnbc.com/news/445813.asp?cp1=1

 

[Wizard]

Maniacal Masestro, Your aren't by chance talking about Virgin....from virgin records...world know ballonist...recently tried the around the world deal and is also very wealthy...???????? Only one I could think off....

 

[Jenne64]

Wizard,
I think the name your searching for is "Richard Branson" infact I know thats the name your searching for I useed to work for him.
regards,
Jenne

 

[Wizard]

Thats it Jenne, Just couldn't think of the name just knew who he was...Thanks....Now maniacal is that who you meant?