Risk and BDSM

[Keroin]

The ongoing discussion in the Gunplay thread got me thinking about this. Again. This is hardly the first time a poster has talked/bragged about risky BDSM activity and has been met with a less-than-enthusiastic response.

I am not risk averse. The regulars here all know that I was a professional stunt performer for ten years and I have spent the past decade self-employed and nomadic. I am obviously hardwired for risk. I also believe that the human race would not have come as far as it has if a good segment of the population was also wired this way.

But.

My risks are weighed and calculated. I could rationalize the very real danger I faced on the job because it was something for which I'd trained, every possible safety precaution was taken, and if something went wrong I knew that I--or in the event of my death, my partner/family--would be cared for.

I would not take extreme risks in BDSM. Part of that is because I've gotten my thrills elsewhere and that need has largely been sated, but it's also because when I look at the "what could go wrong" column it's a list of consequences I would never want to face. The gunplay thread is an excellent example of this. It's all fine to say, "Well, if I die, I die, my choice." But what if you don't die? What if you end up on life support for the rest of your life? What if your partner goes to prison for his/her participation? Those are the questions I would ask myself and I would know, with no hesitation, that the risk is not worth the thrill.

So how do you draw your lines when it comes to risk? And, if you take extreme risks in BDSM, why?

 

[MeekMe]

I draw my line quickly. I am anxious and often worried about my health. Mister thinks I'm funny because I pay attention to my body and what it tells me. When I told him I believed dairy was causing me to break out, he didn't understand because he never correlates what he eats to how his body is reacting (he never seems to be in bad health, though ;; )

I'm so hyper aware of myself that anything too extreme would cause me to worry and think something was wrong. I can't take huge risks, my anxiety wouldn't allow it.

Of course, this is coming from someone who even when drunk, is still too conscious to sing karaoke.

Also, the thrill isn't enough to make me switch off the voice in my head that says "how do you explain this to a doctor? Or family?" That's if I survived. And if I didn't, how does Mister explain it? >_< Not something I'm willing to do.

 

[KoPilot]

I do more extreme stuff in a religious context than I do BDSM. Blood, mind-altering substances, behavior modification, punishment.

Not gonna go into it more than that. Suffice to say, I'm of a pagan-type bent.

 

[Netzach]

Prodomming. The SM wasn't the most challenging out there, but the cray cray of screening/hustling/holding it all together, the balls of getting into a room with naked strange men and actually making them think I was in control of the sitch somehow?

I loved every minute! But I also think I blew out my adrenals and made myself the sickie I am now

So that is my risk-and-bdsm thing. I know I can go there, I just don't feel compelled to do something like suspend someone off my i-beam or whatever to say I did anymore.

 

[marieR19]

It's all fine to say, "Well, if I die, I die, my choice." But what if you don't die? What if you end up on life support for the rest of your life? What if your partner goes to prison for his/her participation?

This right here is why, no matter how curious I might be, I would never allow myself to get into the riskiest stuff. Gunplay, masks (okay, I'm claustrophobic too), knifeplay....

I've been suicidal more times then I can count in my life, so I'm no stranger to the "if I die, I die" mentality. But when it comes to my PARTNER, someone I love, possibly going to jail because an oops happened and I died, so I wasn't able to tell cops/judge/etc that it was consensual and planned? Heck no. I'm not going to put someone *else's* future at risk like that.

 

[desertslave]

In my younger days I went through a period of craving and seeking extremely risky play. In retrospect I think I was seeking out assisted suicide without wanting to take responsibility for the reality of it. (I was in a very bad place at the time.)

These days there is still an element of risk that truly gets me going and that I sometimes crave more than is sensible or practical. It's usually because I'm on some sort of edge again. When I take a breath, I usually manage to figure out why I'm feeling so frantic and try to work it out another way.

I'm in a rough patch now. I'm nursing my mom every few weeks (she has terminal cancer), traveling cross-country to do it, I'm just 2 months post-op and my shoulder NEEDS physical therapy to get right (and I'm too tired to do it when I'm at Mom's), missing Master when I'm away, and a few of my other physical issues are rearing their ugly heads. I'm not so sure I want to talk myself out of the wilder stuff right now. <sigh>

Good thing I'm not the final "no" in my life.

 

[bhndblueyes88]

I draw my lines based on a few key factors.

1) My profession demands manual dexterity and a degree of physical ability.
2) I must maintain a professional appearance, both at work and--to a lesser extent--in public.
3) I have a mortgage-worth of student loans that would fall on my partner and/or family in the event of my death or disability. There are no BDSM-activities I would enjoy enough to be worth this risk.

In general, this means I limit activities that could cause prolonged discomfort, visibly apparent injury (rope burns, hand prints, etc...) in difficult-to-hide locations, or any sort of activity that would outwardly interfere with a professional image. I live near my client base and my industry is enough of a "small world", that I seriously need to think about the potential consequences for public activity, even if it's "subtle".

Luckily, we're not that kinky We mostly just need enough privacy/space that people don't hear me during a good spanking

 

[MeekMe]

I draw my lines based on a few key factors.

1) My profession demands manual dexterity and a degree of physical ability.
2) I must maintain a professional appearance, both at work and--to a lesser extent--in public.
3) I have a mortgage-worth of student loans that would fall on my partner and/or family in the event of my death or disability. There are no BDSM-activities I would enjoy enough to be worth this risk.

In general, this means I limit activities that could cause prolonged discomfort, visibly apparent injury (rope burns, hand prints, etc...) in difficult-to-hide locations, or any sort of activity that would outwardly interfere with a professional image. I live near my client base and my industry is enough of a "small world", that I seriously need to think about the potential consequences for public activity, even if it's "subtle".

Luckily, we're not that kinky We mostly just need enough privacy/space that people don't hear me during a good spanking

I agree with you on limiting activities that would leave marks that are hard to hide. I have to look professional at work, and I prefer to not let anyone even think I might be into what I'm into.

 

[KinkyPan]

So how do you draw your lines when it comes to risk? And, if you take extreme risks in BDSM, why?

I have few rules, personally, about what I will and will not do re: BDSM.

The first is, I won't try to do something I don't know how to. Any fancy knots I haven't been trained in, etc., are right out. I have to be pretty fucking confident that I know my shit before I take responsibility for someone else's well-being.

Secondly, I take a LOT of safety precautions, as many as I can think of. There are always sharp scissors nearby if I'm tying someone up, I always use a safeword, and I am obsessive about barriers. Finger cots/gloves, dental dams, and condoms are nonnegotiable. My strapon is ALWAYS condom-covered, as are any dicks that get touched. I consider STI risk a serious safety concern in any sex play, and BDSM isn't an exception.

Third, I talk to my partners, a LOT, before we engage in play. If there's a medical problem, I know it. If there's trauma related to what we're doing, hopefully I know it. I know the extent of their limits, and they have confirmed several times over a long period that they remember the safeword. Talking thoroughly to your partners seems obvious to me, but I've talked to people who have done BDSM play on an hour's acquaintance without discussing any of this shit.

Last, anything that seems to risk serious injury - knife play, etc. - is out. If one slip is all it would take to send someone to hospital or worse... I can't do it. I think the IDEA of knifeplay is pretty fucking hot, in some circumstances, but the risk just seems too great. I'm a sadistic person, but nothing is a worse turnoff than actually injuring a partner.

 

[Pachet]

I'm not interested in suicide. If I was, risky play wouldn't hold any allure for me, because if I wanted to die, why do I care if I actually might?

As for the consequences to one's play partner if something goes wrong, it's something I and I'm sure most other edgeplayers (breath play, electro, ect), have thought of. Which is why I only play with someone I reasonably believe will keep me safe. Could an accident still happen, yes. But if I can make the decision to take that kind of risk, then the same can be said of my partner.
Some of these posts make it sound like the pyl is begging the PYL to do gunplay. There are PYLs who are into it on their own, who've thought about the risks, including jail if something goes wrong (just like it could with other extreme edgeplay), and decided the risks are worth it.

I'm not sure how gunplay bumps up the risk over other edgeplay. Just like plenty of ppl do breathplay everday, people do gunplay. Occasionally in both, something bad happens. With breath play, maybe the sub is choked out and never comes to. Not as dramatic as a bang and lots of blood, but the outcome is the same - a dead person and a person who may be charged with murder.

We all minimize the risk in our own activities, it's human nature. But everytime someone says "god, I could never take that kind of risk, using a loaded gun", and then posts in another thread about choking their sub unconcious, I just kind of shake my head.

From The Secretary: (I'm sure it's not original, but I don't know where it comes from)

You are the child of god's holy gift of life. You come from me. But you are not me. Your soul and your body are your own, and yours to do with as you wish.

I'm an atheist so I'm not really with the god business, but I've always loved that quote.

 

[Lemmy963]

Ok, I'll admit that anymore I'm more of a light player than I have been in the past so maybe I've lost a bit of that edge I once had. But some of the things I'm seeing more and more of anymore (such as gun/knifeplay) just too me seems be massively stupid ideas.

Maybe those were just things that were always so risky they never seem doable in my opinion. But to me even when I was a bit more into the rougher side, B&D and S&M seemed more fun for the ritual of it, the well whole stageplay idea I guess. For me it was never about either beating the crap out of someone or getting beaten myself (I happen to be a Switch).

Sure I've had bruises, ropeburns and whatnot but guns, knives or just breathplay never seemed fun. A little risk is fine but if it would cost me, or someone else, their life or just a limb. Then nope, not my thing at all.

 

[Keroin]

I'm so hyper aware of myself that anything too extreme would cause me to worry and think something was wrong. I can't take huge risks, my anxiety wouldn't allow it.

I think it's good that you listen to your body. While I'm a big fan of stepping outside of comfort zones this BDSM stuff is supposed to be enjoyable, not stressful.

Also, the thrill isn't enough to make me switch off the voice in my head that says "how do you explain this to a doctor? Or family?" That's if I survived. And if I didn't, how does Mister explain it? >_< Not something I'm willing to do.

Yes, that's a big factor for me. Huge. Hubs and I have done lots of crazy things together, during which either of us could have been killed or very seriously injured, but in none of those cases would the fallout have caused us problems with our friends, families, or the law.

I do more extreme stuff in a religious context than I do BDSM. Blood, mind-altering substances, behavior modification, punishment.

Not gonna go into it more than that. Suffice to say, I'm of a pagan-type bent.

Gotcha. And I won't ask, even though I'm intrigued.

Prodomming. The SM wasn't the most challenging out there, but the cray cray of screening/hustling/holding it all together, the balls of getting into a room with naked strange men and actually making them think I was in control of the sitch somehow?

I loved every minute! But I also think I blew out my adrenals and made myself the sickie I am now

So that is my risk-and-bdsm thing. I know I can go there, I just don't feel compelled to do something like suspend someone off my i-beam or whatever to say I did anymore.

Whenever I think of the PYL, this is the part that awes me. I'm perfectly willing to accept the consequences of my own actions but being responsible for someone else's safety in a BDSM context while trying to maintain an outward appearance of having everything under control and being totally chill? I honestly don't think I could pull it off. I can see how that could stress a person out and negatively impact their health.

But when it comes to my PARTNER, someone I love, possibly going to jail because an oops happened and I died, so I wasn't able to tell cops/judge/etc that it was consensual and planned? Heck no. I'm not going to put someone *else's* future at risk like that.

Word.

I'm in a rough patch now. I'm nursing my mom every few weeks (she has terminal cancer), traveling cross-country to do it, I'm just 2 months post-op and my shoulder NEEDS physical therapy to get right (and I'm too tired to do it when I'm at Mom's), missing Master when I'm away, and a few of my other physical issues are rearing their ugly heads. I'm not so sure I want to talk myself out of the wilder stuff right now. <sigh>

Good thing I'm not the final "no" in my life.

So sorry to hear about your current situation. But glad to know you have someone watching out for you.

My younger self was invincible, as most young people are. I'm thankful that there were times when those with saner heads stepped in to keep me from making the really big mistakes. (I still managed to make a lot of little and mid-sized ones, though )

I draw my lines based on a few key factors.

1) My profession demands manual dexterity and a degree of physical ability.
2) I must maintain a professional appearance, both at work and--to a lesser extent--in public.
3) I have a mortgage-worth of student loans that would fall on my partner and/or family in the event of my death or disability. There are no BDSM-activities I would enjoy enough to be worth this risk.

Good list.

Luckily, we're not that kinky We mostly just need enough privacy/space that people don't hear me during a good spanking

LOL. Ditto.

I have few rules, personally, about what I will and will not do re: BDSM.

The first is, I won't try to do something I don't know how to. Any fancy knots I haven't been trained in, etc., are right out. I have to be pretty fucking confident that I know my shit before I take responsibility for someone else's well-being.

Secondly, I take a LOT of safety precautions, as many as I can think of. There are always sharp scissors nearby if I'm tying someone up, I always use a safeword, and I am obsessive about barriers. Finger cots/gloves, dental dams, and condoms are nonnegotiable. My strapon is ALWAYS condom-covered, as are any dicks that get touched. I consider STI risk a serious safety concern in any sex play, and BDSM isn't an exception.

Third, I talk to my partners, a LOT, before we engage in play. If there's a medical problem, I know it. If there's trauma related to what we're doing, hopefully I know it. I know the extent of their limits, and they have confirmed several times over a long period that they remember the safeword. Talking thoroughly to your partners seems obvious to me, but I've talked to people who have done BDSM play on an hour's acquaintance without discussing any of this shit.

Last, anything that seems to risk serious injury - knife play, etc. - is out. If one slip is all it would take to send someone to hospital or worse... I can't do it. I think the IDEA of knifeplay is pretty fucking hot, in some circumstances, but the risk just seems too great. I'm a sadistic person, but nothing is a worse turnoff than actually injuring a partner.

I think you've touched on something important here. The riskier the activity (BDSM or otherwise) the more you need to do your work ahead of time. If I was inclined to play in extreme ways, I would only do so with a partner who was as conscientious as you describe yourself.

As for the consequences to one's play partner if something goes wrong, it's something I and I'm sure most other edgeplayers (breath play, electro, ect), have thought of. Which is why I only play with someone I reasonably believe will keep me safe. Could an accident still happen, yes. But if I can make the decision to take that kind of risk, then the same can be said of my partner.

Here's my problem with this statement--not just as it applies to you but in general...

I think it's nearly impossible to have truly informed consent for some activities. It is much easier to say, "I'll look after you if you end up paralyzed, or on life support, or what-have-you, because of this." than it is to actually carry out that promise. I have a good friend who is a quadriplegic, I see what his life entails. Yes, your partner might stand by you and look after you, but is that a life you want for them and do you really understand what that kind of life would be like?

Second, when we talk about the worst case scenarios – prison, serious injury, and death—these events do not affect simply the participants of edge play. Family, friends, children—everyone close to the “victim” and “perpetrator” will bear the weight. Are their lives and feelings factored into the decision? Should we ask them to endure the stigma/anger/embarrassment along with the grief? I realize that when people really feel driven to do something, they will find ways to overlook or minimize these sorts of consequences. I think that’s a normal human reaction but not necessarily a good one.

So for anyone who enjoys high risk BDSM, how much of your decision to engage in these activities involves consideration for those beyond you and your partner?

Some of these posts make it sound like the pyl is begging the PYL to do gunplay.

Which posts?

I'm not sure how gunplay bumps up the risk over other edgeplay. Just like plenty of ppl do breathplay everday, people do gunplay. Occasionally in both, something bad happens. With breath play, maybe the sub is choked out and never comes to. Not as dramatic as a bang and lots of blood, but the outcome is the same - a dead person and a person who may be charged with murder.

We all minimize the risk in our own activities, it's human nature. But everytime someone says "god, I could never take that kind of risk, using a loaded gun", and then posts in another thread about choking their sub unconcious, I just kind of shake my head.

I notice you keep focusing on this. For the record, I wouldn’t engage in choking/hanging play and I’m not talking exclusively about gunplay, your thread simply triggered (pun!) these thoughts. There’s a wide spectrum of risk out there. I don’t know exactly where loaded gun play falls in relation to choking/hanging, but I do know they are on the side of a line I would not cross.

Ok, I'll admit that anymore I'm more of a light player than I have been in the past so maybe I've lost a bit of that edge I once had.

I think there's an element of novelty to every thrilling activity. Many of the risky things that pressed my buttons back in the day don't anymore and part of that is simply "been there, done that".

 

[Pachet]

Here's my problem with this statement--not just as it applies to you but in general...

I think it's nearly impossible to have truly informed consent for some activities. It is much easier to say, "I'll look after you if you end up paralyzed, or on life support, or what-have-you, because of this." than it is to actually carry out that promise. I have a good friend who is a quadriplegic, I see what his life entails. Yes, your partner might stand by you and look after you, but is that a life you want for them and do you really understand what that kind of life would be like?

I had a friend who was paralyzed from the waist down. He passed away from something unrelated to his disability. I mentioned him in the "are there any subs who can chat" thread. I believe I know what his life entailed. He has cried in my arms over the loss of his sexuality - or at least what it once was. Most of the PYLs I play with who engage in gunplay have seen up close and personal what bullets can do. I believe our consent is informed.

Second, when we talk about the worst case scenarios – prison, serious injury, and death—these events do not affect simply the participants of edge play. Family, friends, children—everyone close to the “victim” and “perpetrator” will bear the weight. Are their lives and feelings factored into the decision? Should we ask them to endure the stigma/anger/embarrassment along with the grief? I realize that when people really feel driven to do something, they will find ways to overlook or minimize these sorts of consequences. I think that’s a normal human reaction but not necessarily a good one.

I have no children. I might have a couple years left to try, and if I had one, I'd cease my gunplay activities, or anything that could reasonably result in death. As for family and friends, yes, their feelings are factored in. Please keep in mind that not everyone has the Beaver Cleaver family, and not everyone has the kind of ties to their blood relations that you see in the movies or on tv. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, btw.

Which posts?

The ones I'm thinking of are the ones that say "I could never take that risk with my partner". To me that kind of reads like the partner is unable to decide that for him/herself.

I notice you keep focusing on this. For the record, I wouldn’t engage in choking/hanging play and I’m not talking exclusively about gunplay, your thread simply triggered (pun!) these thoughts. There’s a wide spectrum of risk out there. I don’t know exactly where loaded gun play falls in relation to choking/hanging, but I do know they are on the side of a line I would not cross.

I'm focusing on it because to me, gunplay, knifeplay, breathplay and electro all fall under the heading of "potentially deadly". Each one can end in death. I don't think the odds matter - we all know better than to "play the odds", right? Each time you toss dice, the odds reset. Someone in another thread mentioned having one's head in the sand - how is it not having one's head in the sand to insist that holding a loaded gun on someone is more dangerous than choking them unconcious? I repeat it because i want it to sink in for people, although I don't really think it will. Guns have an aura about them, and perhaps will always be looked at differently.

 

[Keroin]

I had a friend who was paralyzed from the waist down. He passed away from something unrelated to his disability. I mentioned him in the "are there any subs who can chat" thread. I believe I know what his life entailed. He has cried in my arms over the loss of his sexuality - or at least what it once was. Most of the PYLs I play with who engage in gunplay have seen up close and personal what bullets can do. I believe our consent is informed.

And prison? Do you feel you have an in-depth understanding of what years behind bars would be like?

I'm sure you will tell me you do. I also think that watching/seeing and actually experiencing are often light years apart. But that's fine. If you feel as if you know all this then obviously you are a more enlightened person than myself.

I have no children. I might have a couple years left to try, and if I had one, I'd cease my gunplay activities, or anything that could reasonably result in death. As for family and friends, yes, their feelings are factored in. Please keep in mind that not everyone has the Beaver Cleaver family, and not everyone has the kind of ties to their blood relations that you see in the movies or on tv. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, btw.

If you have no one else in your life close enough to care about in this regard then fair enough.

The ones I'm thinking of are the ones that say "I could never take that risk with my partner". To me that kind of reads like the partner is unable to decide that for him/herself.

It must be a two way street. Even if I say I'm willing to take a huge risk, if my partner is not comfortable with it then they're not comfortable with it. And vice versa. Even if my partner was willing to risk the worst consequences of edge play, I would not be willing to let him do that. I would not be comfortable letting him do that. I could never enjoy myself knowing what might happen to him (and our friends, family, etc.).

These kind of activities should not be undertaken unless both parties are 100% comfortable with all aspects.

I'm focusing on it because to me, gunplay, knifeplay, breathplay and electro all fall under the heading of "potentially deadly". Each one can end in death. I don't think the odds matter - we all know better than to "play the odds", right? Each time you toss dice, the odds reset. Someone in another thread mentioned having one's head in the sand - how is it not having one's head in the sand to insist that holding a loaded gun on someone is more dangerous than choking them unconcious? I repeat it because i want it to sink in for people, although I don't really think it will. Guns have an aura about them, and perhaps will always be looked at differently.

When I worked in film, we often used real weapons on set. There were all kinds of or protocols around handling weapons. But the strictest were reserved for guns. Even if they were not loaded. We worked with knives, and swords, and clubs, and all kinds of weapons that could maim or kill a person but guns were treated with a much higher level of safety and respect than anything else. This was not because we were all a bunch of paranoid sissies, it's because it was determined that these were the weapons that were capable of doing the most harm, most easily. It's not some weird "aura" its a working knowledge of a weapon that can kill with merely the accidental squeeze of a finger.

If you know all the dangers and risks and choose to play with loaded guns that way anyway that's your prerogative. But don't try to write guns off as simply metal objects that are not inherently dangerous or deflect genuine concern by pointing to other very risky activities.

 

[ecstaticsub]

There are some things I've learned about BDSM and risks and myself. The risk was not in the activity itself. We could have the necessary precautionary preparations in place for that.

The biggest risks were with situations I could not protect myself from on both an emotional and physical level.

For me simply deciding to be owned was/is the riskiest,edgiest thing I would ever do.

The benefit/risk ratio hasn't been fully determined yet

 

[Netzach]

how is it not having one's head in the sand to insist that holding a loaded gun on someone is more dangerous than choking them unconcious? I repeat it because i want it to sink in for people, although I don't really think it will. Guns have an aura about them, and perhaps will always be looked at differently.

Because it's NOT. Because there would be more people playing William Bourroughs and fewer people doing Judo if they were even in the same stratosphere of risk. However, you're right, it's too easy to understate the choking out risk, probably. Both are things I file under "too much downside potential."

 

[KoPilot]

Gotcha. And I won't ask, even though I'm intrigued.

It all sounds a lot weirder than it is when I spell it out in plain English without going into the religio-cultural context and all that fun stuff.

I guess what I meant to say is that... I draw the line a lot quicker when it comes to someone else than with me doing it to myself. I've done piercing on myself before and yet have a hard time going to the doctor to get a shot, yannow?

The rest is woo and this isn't a very good place to talk about that stuff~

 

[LucyH]

The biggest risk I take sexually has nothing to do with BDSM - it's trusting surgical sterilization to prevent pregnancy and trusting my partner not to bring home any nasty STIs.

The biggest BDSM risk is that the handcuffs are real and very high quality, but there are extra keys and dozens of locksmiths in the phone book.

 

[DVS]

I don't take unnecessary risks. While it might seem like I do, because my erotic interests include electricity, I make sure everything works and is up to specs. Because it seems that Murphy's Law follows me around every day and literally anything that can go wrong will, I take extra interest in this.

But, it's nothing new for me. I've always been pretty anal about it (no pun intended). I like to enjoy my fun, whatever kind of fun it is. Because of this, I check things out before hand. I'm a musician. I've got a small studio in my house. When other musicians come over to play, I make sure my system is working and all cords have been tested, etc. When someone comes with cash to pay for recording, he doesn't want something to go wrong and waste the afternoon away, while I search my system for a bad connection.

It's no different than someone who gets his car checked out before a family vacation. You don't want to be stranded in a strange part of the country. Why do you get your furnace checked in the beginning of winter? Why do you change the batteries in your smoke detectors when switching your clocks on daylight savings?

It's just basic common sense, when you think about it. Risk doesn't have to be risky.

 

[MeekMe]

Some have mentioned experience. That is the whole reason we will never dive into more serious play. Mister isn't experienced and I don't know what my limits are. I trust him to do what he knows. He trusts me to say when I can't go anymore.

If the risk is higher it means you should know a lot more about what you're doing. We don't have that at the moment.

 

[Pachet]

And prison? Do you feel you have an in-depth understanding of what years behind bars would be like?

I'm sure you will tell me you do. I also think that watching/seeing and actually experiencing are often light years apart. But that's fine. If you feel as if you know all this then obviously you are a more enlightened person than myself.

And I'm sure if I do tell you I do you'll find a way to dismiss it... so why bother?

If you have no one else in your life close enough to care about in this regard then fair enough.

I have family and friends who care about me. It's complicated. Life isn't always black and white.

It must be a two way street. Even if I say I'm willing to take a huge risk, if my partner is not comfortable with it then they're not comfortable with it. And vice versa. Even if my partner was willing to risk the worst consequences of edge play, I would not be willing to let him do that. I would not be comfortable letting him do that. I could never enjoy myself knowing what might happen to him (and our friends, family, etc.).

Of course it's a two way street. I would never do it with anyone who wasn't comfortable - more than that, they have to be into it and have been BEFORE they met me. I'm really, really picky about who I do this with.

In the end, I think there's a gulf of understanding here that just can't be bridged - and I'm not blaming it on those who don't understand me, nor am I blaming it on myself for not being able to suddenly say "Oh my god - I see that you guys are right, holy crap!". I'm just saying - you either get it, or you don't.

These kind of activities should not be undertaken unless both parties are 100% comfortable with all aspects.

I agree.

When I worked in film, we often used real weapons on set. There were all kinds of or protocols around handling weapons. But the strictest were reserved for guns. Even if they were not loaded. We worked with knives, and swords, and clubs, and all kinds of weapons that could maim or kill a person but guns were treated with a much higher level of safety and respect than anything else. This was not because we were all a bunch of paranoid sissies, it's because it was determined that these were the weapons that were capable of doing the most harm, most easily. It's not some weird "aura" its a working knowledge of a weapon that can kill with merely the accidental squeeze of a finger.

And no matter if you've choked your sub unconscious for years, one day, she just might not wake up. Outcome's the same. You're not going to know until the usual few minutes pass and she doesn't open her eyes. Then it's most likely going to be too late. As I said, not as dramatic as a bang and a splat, but the outcome is the same.

If you know all the dangers and risks and choose to play with loaded guns that way anyway that's your prerogative. But don't try to write guns off as simply metal objects that are not inherently dangerous or deflect genuine concern by pointing to other very risky activities.

I'm hardly "writing them off". Don't put words into my mouth - it's a shitty way to debate. Quote where I said a gun is not inherently dangerous. I pointed out that other edgeplay can lead to death... but it's quite obvious that no one here wants to hear that. What was that line about heads in the sand, again?

I am not deflecting concern, I am engaging in conversation. I appreciate genuine, respectfully voiced concern. Condescension couched in "worry for my safety" is another thing altogether.

 

[Netzach]

If you think that breathplay isn't a flaming potato of controversy in the kink world wherever you take it, you might want to investigate "The Jay Wiseman article" and the ongoing shitstorming over this.

MOST people who asphyxiate do so alone. That's the biggest likely danger in SM, solo UN supervised bondage. And a lot of people do a lot of work trying to mitigate the dangers as much as possible, realizing that people are going to be people no matter what. If you have to choke yourself out, (and officially, it's a terrible TERRIBLE idea) use something that will snap open the second you let go, like rubber tubing. (Crossed, never wound around)

There isn't an equivalent mitigator if people are going to insist on their thing and their thing is ammo.

Also, someone saying "this is a terrible idea" isn't saying "there must be a law against." When your perversion is fairly edge to the point of indefensible (and some of my psych/ego play has been) then you just live with that, that they're right, but you're you.

 

[bhndblueyes88]

I think the huge aversion to the risks of gunplay (in particular) is that the path TO the "same end point" is so much more abrupt and irrevocable. Once you pull a trigger...well that bullet is gone. And it only takes a fraction of a second. To continue your comparison with breathplay, there's this long gradient of effect. YES, once someone has reached "X threshold", you can't just take it back and undo the damage you've done...but you sure as hell can resuscitate them, put them on oxygen, and get them through it fairly readily.

I'd like to see even the BEST neurosurgeon unscramble a brain stem.

Accidents happen. everyone knows this. But an accident with a gun...well...even a dog can kill a man!

 

[Keroin]

The biggest risks were with situations I could not protect myself from on both an emotional and physical level.

As I mentioned earlier, I think it is difficult, sometimes impossible, to know how we will react to the consequences of the risks we take. Big or small. To me, the fantasy of being owned is all kinds of delicious and wet-making. The reality? I couldn't do it. Especially since I've seen, through you and others on this board, what the day-to-day of being owned looks like.

Not all risks are physical.

I guess what I meant to say is that... I draw the line a lot quicker when it comes to someone else than with me doing it to myself. I've done piercing on myself before and yet have a hard time going to the doctor to get a shot, yannow?

Gotcha.

The rest is woo and this isn't a very good place to talk about that stuff~

LOL. Probably not.

The biggest BDSM risk is that the handcuffs are real and very high quality, but there are extra keys and dozens of locksmiths in the phone book.

Ha! I was reading something recently about the number of times police were called to come help people get out of handcuffs in a "romantic" situation due to misplaced keys. It was quite a high number. (I think a locksmith is a better idea).

It's just basic common sense, when you think about it. Risk doesn't have to be risky.

Well, I think the more accurate statement is that risk can be minimized. Only because, as you said...Murphy's Law.

If the risk is higher it means you should know a lot more about what you're doing.

Agreed.

Of course it's a two way street. I would never do it with anyone who wasn't comfortable - more than that, they have to be into it and have been BEFORE they met me. I'm really, really picky about who I do this with.

And that's exactly what these other people are stating when they express their unwillingness to put their partner in a situation with potentially dire consequences. They are not comfortable with letting their partners take that risk.

In the end, I think there's a gulf of understanding here that just can't be bridged - and I'm not blaming it on those who don't understand me, nor am I blaming it on myself for not being able to suddenly say "Oh my god - I see that you guys are right, holy crap!". I'm just saying - you either get it, or you don't.

I don't think the gulf is as wide as you imagine. And I think the "not getting it" may fall equally on both sides.

And no matter if you've choked your sub unconscious for years, one day, she just might not wake up. Outcome's the same. You're not going to know until the usual few minutes pass and she doesn't open her eyes. Then it's most likely going to be too late. As I said, not as dramatic as a bang and a splat, but the outcome is the same.

It's not the outcome, it's the "getting to the outcome". This is the point you won't see.

I'm hardly "writing them off". Don't put words into my mouth - it's a shitty way to debate. Quote where I said a gun is not inherently dangerous. I pointed out that other edgeplay can lead to death... but it's quite obvious that no one here wants to hear that. What was that line about heads in the sand, again?

Many things can lead to death, this doesn't make them all equally risky. I agree edge play is, by definition, edgy. It is all too much of a risk for me. I think choking someone to unconsciousness is every bit as stupid as playing with a loaded gun. I also understand that there are people who will do this because for them the risk is worth it.

How are you "writing them off" when it comes to guns? Whenever someone comments on the danger and extreme risk, you point to another dangerous activity. You call them "metal objects" instead of weapons. You say that the odds don't matter. You assert that people's concerns are not based on real, factual danger but on the "aura" of guns.

I understand where this is coming from. You feel unfairly persecuted for your chosen form of edgeplay. If it makes you feel any better, I've seen lots of other folks on this board verbally spanked for non-gun BDSM activities that cross into the "foolishly risky" zone.

I am not deflecting concern, I am engaging in conversation. I appreciate genuine, respectfully voiced concern. Condescension couched in "worry for my safety" is another thing altogether.

I'm not worried for your safety. You're a grown woman and you've made your choice. My worry is of the general variety. It includes worry for anyone who may read your words and decide to try the activity themselves.

Here's my bottom line.

If you tell me you know that what you are doing is extremely risky to the point of foolish, that you don't encourage others to try it, that you understand that the consequences for you and others may be devastating, but that you are going to do it anyway because you have determined the reward for you is worth the risk...I accept that.

I may think you're crazy/naive but I accept it.

If you tell me that I am overreacting, that I don't understand, that gunplay with a loaded and unsafed weapon is no less risky than any other form of edgeplay, that the consequences should things go wrong will not negatively affect others (perhaps beyond your comprehension)? No. I don't buy that and never will.

Or as Netz puts it...

Also, someone saying "this is a terrible idea" isn't saying "there must be a law against." When your perversion is fairly edge to the point of indefensible (and some of my psych/ego play has been) then you just live with that, that they're right, but you're you.

Yep.

I think of this the way I think of BASE jumping. Lots of people love it. Lots of people do it. Lots of people land safely. Lots of people find the reward worth the risk. Fine.

That doesn't change the fact that it's risky to the point of stupid.

The only addition is that with edge play you risk exposing others in your life to ridicule and shame, (on top of grief), should you fuck up in the worst way.

I think the huge aversion to the risks of gunplay (in particular) is that the path TO the "same end point" is so much more abrupt and irrevocable. Once you pull a trigger...well that bullet is gone. And it only takes a fraction of a second. To continue your comparison with breathplay, there's this long gradient of effect. YES, once someone has reached "X threshold", you can't just take it back and undo the damage you've done...but you sure as hell can resuscitate them, put them on oxygen, and get them through it fairly readily.

Yes. This is where the odds do matter.

I keep going back to stunts but that's the world of risk I know. All stunts are risky and the inside joke is that it's always the little ones that get you, which is often true. But our stunt adjustment (danger pay) was based on, among other factors, the level of risk. A fight scene is (usually) not as risky as a car hit. And as risky as a car hit is (quite risky), it is not nearly as risky as a very high fall. A car hit will usually result in some injury--sometimes fatal--but landing on an airbag from a certain height is live/die, no middle ground at all.

There is a scale to risk. Physical and psychological.

 

[Pachet]

I don't think the gulf is as wide as you imagine.

Really? It seems to be pretty wide considering that quite a few members of this board who usually treat every poster with a basic respect, became hostile, condescending and rude when I spoke about my personal kink. I've seen (no hyperbole) kinder responses on this forum to people who spoke about fantasizing about fucking children. So forgive me if the gulf feels a bit wide to me.

And I think the "not getting it" may fall equally on both sides.

I agree - I never said it didn't.

It's not the outcome, it's the "getting to the outcome". This is the point you won't see.

And if someone ends up dead through play, it doesn't really matter how, and that's the part you won't see. I know you will say "but a not breathing person could be revived". But someone shot in the arm could be brought to the hospital and most likely live. Or a not breathing person might never start breathing again, and someone shot in the chest might bleed out before getting to the ER.

How are you "writing them off" when it comes to guns? Whenever someone comments on the danger and extreme risk, you point to another dangerous activity. You call them "metal objects" instead of weapons. You say that the odds don't matter. You assert that people's concerns are not based on real, factual danger but on the "aura" of guns.

That's because I've already admitted it's an extreme risk, but said that for me it's worth it. Again, if you die from play, does it really matter how?

I say "metal object" because people seem to think death via gun is so much worse than death via strangulation or electrocution. And I think that's ridiculous.

I know a gun is a weapon - I love that it's a weapon.

I understand where this is coming from. You feel unfairly persecuted for your chosen form of edgeplay. If it makes you feel any better, I've seen lots of other folks on this board verbally spanked for non-gun BDSM activities that cross into the "foolishly risky" zone.

I don't know that I feel "persecuted", but I do feel judged - perhaps a bit unfairly, but, I'm a big girl, I chose to make the thread, and I can handle the reaction. I honestly had no idea it would turn into this, and it wasn't my intention for it to turn into some huge thing. I'm just not going to turn tail and run away or stop responding though. I will say I've gotten a couple PMs from people who said they agreed with me. I'll leave it to the Reader to think about why they didn't post their feelings on the forum.

I don't recall seeing anyone's edgeplay criticized like this, but then I've been away from the forum for a long time and just started reading again a few months ago - not saying I don't believe you, just that I haven't seen it.

I'm not worried for your safety. You're a grown woman and you've made your choice. My worry is of the general variety. It includes worry for anyone who may read your words and decide to try the activity themselves.

If anyone is reading my words and thinking that they want to try gunplay, my advice to them is to play with Airsoft (fake plastic guns), or play unloaded. An unloaded gun is still sexy as hell, and a lot of good Doms can make you wonder whether it's really loaded or not. For most people this is more than sufficient. Playing with a loaded gun can end up with you dead, maimed, brain damaged or paralyzed. It is a huge risk, and it is a risk I have had years to think about before deciding the risk is worth it for me. I didn't read about gunplay four months ago and say "gee, i gotta try that".

If you're contemplating playing loaded I suggest you think long and hard about the consequences if something goes wrong, and if you're willing to live with them. Or die with them. And let your family live with them. Then, if you still want to take that risk, my advice is to find someone who is military or law enforcement, for safety. That was the advice given to me when I started, and now that I have a bit of experience, I agree with it. Talk to your top for months. Find out about his childhood. Ask his most extreme gunplay fantasy, and if he'd actually do it. Ask him what he'll do if he accidentally shoots you. If any of these questions make him uncomfortable, don't play with him. If he wants to try gunplay but is unsure or hesitant, don't play with him. Establish ground rules - verbal and non verbal safewords. You need a non-verbal signal that something is too much, so if he pushes the gun too far down your throat, you have a way of letting him know without grabbing for his hand and making him pull the trigger. It's not a joke and it's not a game. Any edgeplay that can lead to death needs to be thought about like this, not just gunplay. It needs to be thought about like a major life decision like having a baby or getting married, not like which shirt to wear or which restuarant to go to tonight.

Here's my bottom line.

If you tell me you know that what you are doing is extremely risky to the point of foolish, that you don't encourage others to try it, that you understand that the consequences for you and others may be devastating, but that you are going to do it anyway because you have determined the reward for you is worth the risk...I accept that.

I may think you're crazy/naive but I accept it.

Thank you.

If you tell me that I am overreacting, that I don't understand, that gunplay with a loaded and unsafed weapon is no less risky than any other form of edgeplay, that the consequences should things go wrong will not negatively affect others (perhaps beyond your comprehension)? No. I don't buy that and never will.

Fair enough. I disagree with some of the above, but fair enough.

I think of this the way I think of BASE jumping. Lots of people love it. Lots of people do it. Lots of people land safely. Lots of people find the reward worth the risk. Fine.

That doesn't change the fact that it's risky to the point of stupid.

We all choose our own level of risk, and which risks are worth taking and which aren't. I think base jumping looks like it would be amazing, but I would never do it, because I'm convinced MY chute would be the one that wouldn't open.