Requesting postmortem on a failed story

[Feotakahari]

I generally don't come in here and ask for advice when I'm doing well, but with the difficulties I've had lately getting my stories above a 4.0 rating, I ought to ask what I'm doing wrong. If you've got time to spare, would you mind critiquing whatever missteps and errors I made in my last story?

The story is entitled Brave Knight and Fair Maiden. It's fantasy, but it contains incest and cheating (so it's possible I got downvoted by people who dislike one or the other.) It's less than two pages, so it should be a quick read.

http://www.literotica.com/s/brave-knight-and-fair-lady

Thank you!

 

[Bramblethorn]

It's fantasy, but it contains incest and cheating (so it's possible I got downvoted by people who dislike one or the other.)

Also, Teh Gay.

I found it a little bit difficult to follow, but I suspect that's just because I'm tired at the moment and not concentrating well. Other than that, the writing seemed good to me; I think you're right in guessing that you're being downvoted on those triggers more than on the quality of the writing.

 

[nicecthulhu]

Hi Feotakahari.
Well, I couldn't finish the first page. It's not that it's bad, because it probably isn't (subjective). I've certainly read (or partially read) stories with similar styles in various anthologies (not the sex part - the fantasy part).
You do warn everyone at the beginning what's ahead (sex-wise), so I have trouble understanding why someone would read and then give you a poor vote because they don't like incest or whatever. If you think that really is the reason for low scores, then ignore the score.
My biggest problem was I didn't particularly like or associate (connect) with any of the characters. Without some sort of character connection I found the jumping from present to past and back irritating, not 'oh, why didn't he write a little more there?'
You've a nice descriptive style (that I wish I could emulate) and you show an excellent vocabulary without seeming overly wordy.
Nothing near the beginning grabbed my attention and made me determined to finish the story.
I hope this is of some help. My opinions about your story may entirely be only my opinion.

 

[sr71plt]

Maybe readers thought you were trying to be too clever/literary/mystical by half(?)--and all at once. Chances are good that somewhere on the first page, most of the readers dropped out because they didn’t know what the hell was happening—and, worse, didn’t care.

Mauricio didn’t actually agree to do anything Rita wanted because he forgot their anniversary.

Just what does a smile that looks like apple juice spiked with antifreeze look like? This seems meant to show me the smile, but I can’t figure out what it would look like. Frosty? Sour? Poisonous? None seems to fit the context. I didn't see other too-cute-by-far phrases like this, but that's likely because I didn't read very far into it.

Many readers won’t like being lost that Rita and Mauricio seem to know what Rita wants Mauricio to do but the reader doesn't have a clue before getting tired of the story.

Then it goes into a couple of nonsensical take outs—without a shred of sex (so you’ve lost three-quarters of any readers sticking it out to this point).

It’s probably wonderful. Just maybe posted to the wrong Web site.

And maybe it's because you said it would be incest and after the third paragraph the incest reader got the impression they'd have to wait until Thursday of next week to get to the incestuous acts--and then they wouldn't be able to visualize what tab A was doing to get to slot B--that there'd be some Wagnarian soprano off in the wings singing a mystical version in rhyme of how the coupling was going.

I liked the possibility of what the plotline would be--for the first two paragraphs. Then it just wafted away from me. I saw no reason to slog farther than two-thirds down the first page.

(P.S. A 3.91 rating doesn't spell out a failed story.)

 

[YDB95]

Cheating is often a strike against any story in the minds of a lot of Lit readers. I'm not sure why that is in which nothing except underage sex is taboo; but it definitely is the case. Also, I'd have to agree with the others that some readers probably found your prose too flowery. (I occasionally use that style too, and I've definitely noticed my stories tend to score higher when I DON'T use it.)

And as others have pointed out, your score really isn't that bad. I can see why you thought it was, since I see most of your other stories have higher scores, but that's more a matter of your other work doing exceptionally well in the ratings. I also note that the story only has two comments and they're both positive. I wish I had more "failures" like that!

 

[2981notrohrm]

The beginning of the story seemed more than a bit confusing, and the story seemed a bit hard to follow at the beginning. Especially for as short as the sex scene was. For most of the story, I wasn't even sure if there would be a sex scene.

Sex scenes should be detailed and an integral part of the story, not just, "oh, by the way, they fucked."

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Pulling together other comments, I think they are saying you are writing for yourself not readers. I think sr expressed himself harshly, but correctly.

For me, a reader, your story is a muddle. Far too full of italics, a maelstrom of strange characters and very short on an erotic focus - where's the passion? You know what's in your head but you have to lead us along a plot line and get us interested in the characters, not just shower us with comments, similes and metaphors.

Everything needs sex these days from NBC thru' Hollywood to mainstream fiction. You don't hit the erotic solar plexus for either sex, I think.

It seemed to me you were more interested in your fantasy world than the emotional relationship between the couple.

 

[Verdad]

Afraid I have to concur with the negative comments, F. Indeed, I could barely make it past the second paragraph. I'll tell you what I thought of what I read, for what it's worth.

In three ways, it struck Mauricio just how close his wife was to her twin brother.

In itself, this is a decent enough opening line. However, you either need to rephrase it or that which follows, as the items you list aren't really "ways" and the contrivance of addressing them as such stilts the entire opening.

The first was one of appearance and demeanor.

Case in point. Don't make us struggle with the awkwardness of wrapping our minds around "the way of appearance and demeanor." Find some other way of connecting the thoughts. You could, for example, simply omit this line and proceed straight to their physical description, then find some way of letting us know when you've moved to the second 'way'.

They were tall, slender folk, graceful in their movements, with blond hair so pale it was almost white.

This is an extremely clichéd piece of description. Of course we still use such when we need them, but in this particular place you want us to be struck by their similarity, and a description so generic and broad-stroked doesn't bring that forward.

Another man might have called them elfin, but Mauricio hated the idea—the analogy would logically conclude with him as a short, fat dwarf.

This is a clever idea, but still a somewhat stilted line. Try rephrasing. Here's one possibility, not necessarily better, but it should give you an idea how to get rid of some of the big abstract words. "Another man might have called them elfin, but Mauricio, who'd by extension have to be called a fat dwarf, preferred not to go there."

Instead, he thought of them as clockwork dolls, moving in time to the same programmed rhythm, and he wondered on occasion whether he'd even notice were Eric to take Rita's place in his bed.

This is a splendid and intriguing line.

The second was one of fondness.

Ways again. You need a transition that would tell us this is the item number two without trying to stick to the contrivance of 'ways'. Even just "The other thing about them . . ." could work.

Two siblings can be expected to be friends on some level, but they can also be expected to have accumulated old grudges and unresolved arguments. Mauricio was barely on speaking terms with his brothers, and it mystified him that Eric and Rita talked together on the phone almost every night.

Okay. However, with "can" the narrator slipped into present tense. Are you sure you wanted him to?

"So, Mauricio," Eric asked, "have you been taking good care of my sister? Do you remember your anniversary? Do you take her out to the movies once in a while?"

What is this dialogue line doing here? Shouldn't it only appear once you transition from narration to the scene?

The third was that at that very moment, they were sitting next to each other across the table, Rita's arm draped across Eric's shoulders in a way she'd seldom done with Mauricio.

Now you're transitioning to the scene. Again, though, the third what? E.g. "The third thing occurred to him at that very moment, as they all sat around the table."

For as often as Eric called, he was rarely in town, and Rita had been eager to catch up face-to-face.

This thought rings like a non sequitur in this placement and it's not helping you transition to the scene.

The dialogue does start next, but the hook/problem/conflict fails to materialize, and I definitely couldn't read further.

In sum, you have problems on several levels. The fatal one is that the story seems to lack narrative thrust. No amount of pretty prose could get around that. The next biggest problem is that you seem unsure how to transition between exposition and the here-and-now, which makes your writing very confusing to follow. The next-next thing is a fondness for abstractions, where fiction seeks to convey images and needs concrete sensory detail.

Hope this helped a bit, even if it couldn't have been very pleasant to hear.

 

[PennLady]

FWIW, there were, I thought, as number of intriguing ideas here, but the story never settled down to explain them. I felt pulled around and confused and unable to get my bearings.

This is not to say that you must start every story off and proceed in a linear fashion. I've read plenty of stories that start out in one place and pick up in another and even switch between ideas. However, that link between A and B is explained clearly, and then the switch makes sense.

 

[BenLong]

agreed

Agree with the other posts, it's too hard to follow. It's obvious that you know what is happening, but there is too much foreshadowing, too much "hidden" or unexplained. I suppose with regression you're talking about hypnotism, and regressing to a former life? Took a while to figure what was happening, you need to explain to the reader so they know what you know.

With this one:In this moment, Rita was no longer just watching. She was the knight, and the knight was her. But what she saw was never in the story—" What story? We're talking regression here, so where's the story?

I'd have to give it about a three, you're just not catching my interest.

 

[Feotakahari]

So from the sounds of it, my biggest failures were:

1): Not explaining things well enough, clearly enough, or fast enough. The necessary information was all there in some form, but I went too clever by half and veiled it too much. (This is a mistake I've made before.)

2): Not making Mauricio and Eric interesting and/or not making Rita likeable. In retrospect, I should have seen this coming--it's hard to write a story about three people when two of them aren't meant to be likeable. I'm not sure what I should have done for this.

3): MOAR SEX! I have serious trouble with writing lengthy vanilla sex scenes--I can never figure out what to say that hasn't been said before. (Actually, this might be deserving of another thread.)

 

[PennLady]

1): Not explaining things well enough, clearly enough, or fast enough. The necessary information was all there in some form, but I went too clever by half and veiled it too much. (This is a mistake I've made before.)

I was just beta reading for someone and found similar issues in that story. "X" seemed to confuse withholding information entirely with intriguing the reader. I would ask, but why did this happen, and X would give me an answer, but none of it was in the story. To a reader it would be like grabbing things out of a hat. I realize it's tough to drop clues and such, but you need to give some kind of hints at something larger. The reader might misinterpret them, and perhaps that's what you want, but they all need to add up at the end.

2): Not making Mauricio and Eric interesting and/or not making Rita likeable. In retrospect, I should have seen this coming--it's hard to write a story about three people when two of them aren't meant to be likeable. I'm not sure what I should have done for this.

It helps when people can relate to characters, certainly, but they don't necessarily have to be sympathetic. I would say in this story it's hard to know who to root for, if you will. Not that you have to root for anyone, but this was part of what kept me from getting some solid footing in the story. I'd say of the three, my sympathy/empathy lay with Mauricio.

Maybe you need to write more background on the characters, if only for yourself?

 

[sr71plt]

I think it's true that many readers can't enjoy (or, worse, can't appreciate) a story unless they find the characters likable. This may be emphasized in erotica. I can fully appreciate a story with unlikable characters (as long as I don't get the impression that the author thinks they are likable) while maybe not enjoying it. It can be a very good story, though. You just have to bite the bullet and decide what is important for you, the author, in what the story and characters are going to be.

 

[Verdad]

I think it's true that many readers can't enjoy (or, worse, can't appreciate) a story unless they find the characters likable. This may be emphasized in erotica. I can fully appreciate a story with unlikable characters (as long as I don't get the impression that the author thinks they are likable) while maybe not enjoying it. It can be a very good story, though. You just have to bite the bullet and decide what is important for you, the author, in what the story and characters are going to be.

The bold is such a good point but unexpectedly hard to explain. When you call a character off-putting, people will often argue "well he's not meant to be a saint"—as if the majority of contemporary readers, raised on anti-heroes and assorted other gray characters, even expect that.

Admittedly, when it comes to smut, there's probably a lower limit to how much unloveliness we can take in a character; as with all other things in this area, people differ in what they can find erotically appealing.

Still, I imagine a reader who calls a character off-putting just because the character isn't an exemplarily nice person should be pretty rare. What I think is more often meant is something like what you said—the reader isn't convinced the writer knows what he's doing. We suspect the author sees the character as perfectly lovely while we do not, or intends to convey something other than what is actually coming across.

 

[sr71plt]

The bold is such a good point but unexpectedly hard to explain. When you call a character off-putting, people will often argue "well he's not meant to be a saint"—as if the majority of contemporary readers, raised on anti-heroes and assorted other gray characters, even expect that.

Admittedly, when it comes to smut, there's probably a lower limit to how much unloveliness we can take in a character; as with all other things in this area, people differ in what they can find erotically appealing.

Still, I imagine a reader who calls a character off-putting just because the character isn't an exemplarily nice person should be pretty rare. What I think is more often meant is something like what you said—the reader isn't convinced the writer knows what he's doing. We suspect the author sees the character as perfectly lovely while we do not, or intends to convey something other than what is actually coming across.

Laughs. I edited a first novel by an author who next wrote a mega (MEGA!) best-seller (which I wasn't called upon to edit) that went to a major movie. But I found the protagonist in that first novel so off-putting in her whining, self-centeredness, and her manipulation of the other characters that I wanted to upchuck--especially when, in working with the author, I decided that the protagonist was just her in print (which brings in the likelihood she thought her protagonist was likable). (Her mega hit was terrific, though--and didn't seem to have her in it.)

 

[Bramblethorn]

The bold is such a good point but unexpectedly hard to explain. When you call a character off-putting, people will often argue "well he's not meant to be a saint"—as if the majority of contemporary readers, raised on anti-heroes and assorted other gray characters, even expect that.

QFT. Even outright villains can be sympathetic in their way when handled right. Take the bunker scene from Downfall: we're looking at Adolf Hitler having a meltdown, but it's done so well that it's hard not to empathise with his despair.

We suspect the author sees the character as perfectly lovely while we do not, or intends to convey something other than what is actually coming across.

Yeah, this is what killed Anne Rice's vampire books for me. I could probably have dealt with Lestat as a vaguely annoying self-centered protagonist, but when everybody else kept reacting to him as a super-wonderful sexy god thing... ugh.