Reprogramming our responses.

[ahooohgah]

Re: Great thread and question

<snip> One should strive to improve their own responses, regardless of whether they are in a relationship or not. However, if they are in a relationship, it would be better if the aprtner was on the same or some similar path. If not, one will quickly (or at sometime) reach a higher consciousness and not be able to live with the addictions of the other!

This is good! This is all about being yourself, and it illustrates the only way to effectively force another person to change their behavior. You change, then they become uncomfortable, and respond to that.

I learned this in my own therapy, and it was a very difficult concept for me to catch on to. But I've put it work, and it works beautifully.

 

[Debbie]

It takes time and much honest soul searching to find out why you take things so personally.

If someone hits a 'nerve' with me I try to ask why do I feel the way I do before I react.

I truly believe self esteem, self worth and self image come into play big time in this.

I was 'programmed' as a child to always turn the other cheek, repress anger as it is an unacceptable emotion in a strict religious family.

As an adult I had to 'learn' to be angry and say what I was really thinking/feeling without feeling incredibly guilty for my own reactions, emotions and responses.

I reprogrammed myself(and am still growing) by positive affirmations, thinking before I spoke or reacted. Thinking things through and trying to understand why I do the things I do. Building self esteem helped enormously too.



ahooohgah, I disagree with you. Quote: "This is good! This is all about being yourself, and it illustrates the only way to effectively force another person to change their behavior. You change, then they become uncomfortable, and respond to that. "

You cannot force anyone to change. They have to want to.

Tough love encourages people to change the way they respond and interact to their children. Children learn what works with us - if you change the way you respond/behave they will change too. reverse psychology is brillaint.

THe only person I can change is myself. But I can be a better role model to those around me. Being positive is a damn good thing. BUt there are times when being assertive is essential.

I had to learn to be assertive.

 

[intrigued]

<snip>
ahooohgah, I disagree with you. Quote: "This is good! This is all about being yourself, and it illustrates the only way to effectively force another person to change their behavior. You change, then they become uncomfortable, and respond to that. "

You cannot force anyone to change. They have to want to.

I had to learn to be assertive.

I'm really starting to get confused now, yet I feel the more this goes on, the closer we're getting to the part I struggle with, lol.

You said that you can't make people change, they have to want to. Yet you also say that you have to be assertive. Maybe I'm stretching this way too far, but your words play out something like this, in my mind:
Someone does something that causes a negative emotion and/or reaction for you. You take a moment to evaluate your response before responding and in those times you feel the need to be assertive, they won't change/stop the behavior because they don't want or feel the need to change. What then?

I'm very assertive and proactive, it changes nothing. I'm not setting out to change someone else, (OK, maybe a little) I just want to get along a whole lot better than I do. Mostly, I want all the tapes and crap inside me to leave me the hell alone. I would truly love to be able to just think and say "sorry you feel that way" and be done with it. These type people really seem to have it good, and man, it seems to me from the outside looking in, that people find that so attractive. I find it to be uncaring and unyeilding. It leaves the other person no where to go. (I'm the other person, thus far.)

I hope I've clarified a little more now. Thanks again for the insights you've all shared. I'm a little overwhelmed trying to process it all, but please know I am carefully considering all that you've shared.

 

[midwestyankee]

I'm really starting to get confused now, yet I feel the more this goes on, the closer we're getting to the part I struggle with, lol.

You said that you can't make people change, they have to want to. Yet you also say that you have to be assertive. Maybe I'm stretching this way too far, but your words play out something like this, in my mind:
Someone does something that causes a negative emotion and/or reaction for you. You take a moment to evaluate your response before responding and in those times you feel the need to be assertive, they won't change/stop the behavior because they don't want or feel the need to change. What then?

I'm very assertive and proactive, it changes nothing. I'm not setting out to change someone else, (OK, maybe a little) I just want to get along a whole lot better than I do. Mostly, I want all the tapes and crap inside me to leave me the hell alone. I would truly love to be able to just think and say "sorry you feel that way" and be done with it. These type people really seem to have it good, and man, it seems to me from the outside looking in, that people find that so attractive. I find it to be uncaring and unyeilding. It leaves the other person no where to go. (I'm the other person, thus far.)

I hope I've clarified a little more now. Thanks again for the insights you've all shared. I'm a little overwhelmed trying to process it all, but please know I am carefully considering all that you've shared.

Intrigued, I don't think you can stop the tapes from playing in your head - at least not at first - but you can say to yourself, "Oh, that's just put-down tape #28b" and ignore it. If you replace the action of thinking about the message on tape 28b with another action, it will lose its impact on you. That other action could be to involve yourself immediately in something completely different, or it could be to actually say, "I'm sorry you feel that way." Eventually our emotions follow our actions, so it sometimes works to act the way you want to feel. Soon you will feel the way you wanted to feel.

 

[intrigued]

Intrigued, I don't think you can stop the tapes from playing in your head - at least not at first - but you can say to yourself, "Oh, that's just put-down tape #28b" and ignore it. If you replace the action of thinking about the message on tape 28b with another action, it will lose its impact on you. That other action could be to involve yourself immediately in something completely different, or it could be to actually say, "I'm sorry you feel that way." Eventually our emotions follow our actions, so it sometimes works to act the way you want to feel. Soon you will feel the way you wanted to feel.

Ya know...this is a post that I can easily swallow.

There is a tiny part of me that wants to say "but ...", but I'm restraining myself. oops.

 

[midwestyankee]

Ya know...this is a post that I can easily swallow.

There is a tiny part of me that wants to say "but ...", but I'm restraining myself. oops.

Sometimes restraint can be an action worthy of your attention - but not in this context.

 

[ahooohgah]

Debbie,

You said, <You cannot force anyone to change. They have to want to. >

Yeah, I agree with that. I can't force anyone to change. But I can change me, which changes the dynamics of the relationship, which changes all kinds of things. The other person is free to respond in any way he chooses. (in a healthy relationship) We tend to get confortable with our lives, even when they are unhealthy, and when one of the participants wants to fix things, they have to start by changing what's wrong with themselves. Then the other becomes uncomfortable with things, and starts looking for ways to get back on an even keel.

I said it wrong, maybe. I make no claims to be a wordsmith. See my tagline. However, when you change you, somthing else is going to change in response, so I say that's pretty close to forcing some sort of change.

 

[sheath]

Intrigued, I don't think you can stop the tapes from playing in your head - at least not at first - but you can say to yourself, "Oh, that's just put-down tape #28b" and ignore it. If you replace the action of thinking about the message on tape 28b with another action, it will lose its impact on you. That other action could be to involve yourself immediately in something completely different, or it could be to actually say, "I'm sorry you feel that way." Eventually our emotions follow our actions, so it sometimes works to act the way you want to feel. Soon you will feel the way you wanted to feel.

I absolutely love this post.

It all comes down to a matter of perspective, doesn't it, and whether or not you ALLOW negativity to affect you.

S.

 

[manofsteel52]

I absolutely love this post.

It all comes down to a matter of perspective, doesn't it, and whether or not you ALLOW negativity to affect you.

S.

Being all positive is one dimensional.
Negativity can be a good thing. In American culture (assuming one believes Americans have any culture), negativity carries a negative connotation. I prefer to keep my positive and negative pole in balance.

 

[Nightblade]

OK, I have a really wild mind, but this is one that never occured to me. I thought maybe it was a huge type for...oh never mind.

Cate,

When I first read your post, the concept seemed too simple. But that is because I keep forgetting that the mind is very powerful, especially when you consider the Super Ego.
The thought of reprogramming the miles and miles of tape I have running at all times is a bit overwhelming, especially when you have to consider "is this a good tape or a bad tape...or maybe this is a tape someone ELSE needs to reprogram, not me!"

UGH! I've sat here too long trying to respond to this and now I realize I need to think on it more before I reply. I'll be back later, lol.

part of what i see, and this may contribute to your struggle with reprogramming the miles and miles of tape... is that you're trying to reprogram too much at once...even if you spread this out in 'stages' or 'phases', attempting to recondition yourself with something of that magnitude will end up frustrating you and wasting your time and energy...reprogramming is the right track, so you're onto something there...but, like anything else in Life we don't understand...that reprogramming can only be done 1 success at a time...at some point, you need to realize that all you can really hope for is making tiny successess here and there, and that the vast majority trying to reprogram the rest of the tape will be a failure of some kind...this is not a bad thing, i don't think...for it is through the little successes that you can build a more solid foundation...as soon as you realize that you have reprogramming to do, and that that endeavor will be difficult, you've essentially made it less difficult by that realization alone...use that as a starting point and go from there...

What I mean is, where do all the feelings of compromising/shrugging off/giving in really "go", if they aren't truly resolved, or ever really addressed? I think that in time, little things become bigger things that erode away at the edges, then the foundation, until communication is pretty much non existant because the moment their mouth opens and their tongue starts to move, you're seeing them through yesterdays eyes.

the little things that become bigger and erode at the communication that you're referring to...these are associations, pure and simple...therein lies the true power of change for anything we could ever want to change...you must change your association with someone/something before you can truly affect change at all...the other part to that, you mention...about where these things 'go' when not resolved...why are they not resolved? you can be assertive in that you state your position and feelings on whatever the issue is, but also define a boundary and/or consequence to be associated with that particular issue...and make sure the other person you're dealing with knows that there are consequences to not acting respectfully to your feelings/wishes...and vice versa...if there's an actual consequence (and you have the resolve to follow through on the consequence consistently), then there's an atmosphere for change to be birthed...of course, this also requires a willingness on both parts, or from all the people involved, to be effective...

one last point here...then i'm off my soapbox...

these associations...and the social programming (and genetic/biological programming as well) elements happen faster than mere conscious thought...because of that, these things circumvent, if you will, your emotional responses and even your rational responses...this happens at a subconscious level, and there is where you need to reprogram yourself...and the reprogramming of the conscious mind will follow suit...the subconscious is the one who will tell you to look at this other person with 'yesterday's eyes'...why is that? going by association that you have with previous experiences of the same, predictable behaviors and results that have led to this point...you don't even need to think about seeing them with yesterday's eyes anymore...it's an automatic response at that point...this is what i'm referring to...get the reprogramming configured so that you change the 'automatic' response, and you may be well on your way to redefining your own behavior...

 

[assister49]

I have seen a lot of things that I can relate to personally in many, many of these posts. To start, in general, people’s personalities are basal and ingrained, and while we can change our behaviors, we rarely change the basic nature of our personality. (I am talking about Myers-Briggs, Jung, etc. preferences). We can stretch beyond our comfort zone - and some can even make significant changes in the way they act and respond to others. But usually under stress, or when confronted with stressful situations, we go back to draw from our comfort zone (basal personality). In that respect, while we can proactively change behaviors and responses - we tend to remain the same deep inside.

I was married for many years to a very aggressive person. I tend to be more complacent and conciliatory, so it was always easy for me to submit and not fight back. This, as many mentioned, built up in me much resentment in that we never worked out any thing after the argument. It was just dropped and later we went back to being “OK”. I was always giving in. We did not communicate well which further exacerbated things. I also never felt respected or valued. Eventually, my resentment turned into anger, but I still could not express it. My solution was a divorce. It may not have been the right choice, but at the time I saw it as my only way out. The help of a good counselor allowed me to see where I struggled all those years.

Now, while I have not changed my basic harmonizing personality, I have learned to behave more communicatively and assertively. I have also become much better at letting myself express my feelings and talk things out before they build up inside. However, under stress, I can recognize myself going back to my basic instincts (curling up inside my shell and putting on a happy face). Luckily, my SO recognizes this and can get me to open up.

BTW, IMHO, a passive-aggressive personality probably is most noticeable when paired with an aggressive partner because it is the only way they can “get revenge”. A PA matched against a conciliatory personality allows the PA to be more assertive without being put down, and the two can come to a balance of even-tempered wills (or should I say healthy compromise/cooperation).

 

[MagicFingers]

Very good posts, NightBlade & Assister

I have this one thing I would like to add.
Many of us FEEL something, then ACT (or React actually), then THINK about it.
To have better responses, we should FEEL, then THINK, then ACT.

Simple.
Remember this little saying: NO FAT! Which is the way our brains respond the first way, like FAT- headed.

See the attached little diagram for a picture of it. The first is a no-no.
The lower triangle is the preferred way to respond.

 

[assister49]

What workshop did the 'feel-think-act' triangle come from? Haven't heard that one, but it seems like a good concept.

 

[geishaGirl]

I don't feel he was passive aggressive initially as he did note his dislike of her purchase, lol and then considered her response and found it to be good enough for him.
But you did hit the nail on the head as to exactly what bugs me about all of this. At the end of the day, the month, six months...is he really OK with just dropping it? He was irked. Damn, I wish he hadn't used the spaghetti sauce as an example, it seems so trivial!
What I mean is, where do all the feelings of compromising/shrugging off/giving in really "go", if they aren't truly resolved, or ever really addressed? I think that in time, little things become bigger things that erode away at the edges, then the foundation, until communication is pretty much non existant because the moment their mouth opens and their tongue starts to move, you're seeing them through yesterdays eyes.

It just occured to me that maybe this is a huge part of my issue with myself. I never would've considered myself passive aggressive, but in light of how I disdain bickering, tension, pettiness, confontation and general discomfort between people that care for eachother, maybe I am too quick to jump ship? That would explain the continued festering, all the unresolved issues immediately coming to the forefront and making me so volatile right at the gate...maybe?
I've sat here considering this for quite awhile and I'm struggling to not dismiss it simply because I am able to talk and talk and talk about problems with the people that matter to me...to the point they are begging for mercy. So, in the end, I'm confronting, but nothing is changing.

OK, I need to think out loud somewhere else!

You're raising alot of good points with this thread intrigued ! One key thing I wanted to point out is that in (attempting!) to answer the question about where do all the bad feelings go? etc. it really depends on the person I believe. I mean there the kind of people who do just shrug things off and literally don't give the issue a second thought, whether it be about spaghetti sauce or something major. Then there are people who will think about it later on (that's my category! ) and if it wasn't resolved for them in the first place, whether they were the person giving in or not, then it's probably worthwhile in some cases discussing it further. I really believe it's a matter of open, honest communication and learning about your own habits as far as your thinking goes.

These kinds of points that you're raising have been a recent issue for me in my own mind as well, as my husband and I have had some "stuff" to sort out. More important than spaghetti sauce mind you....but still..... I am usually the kind of person that takes on another person's point of view pretty easily too so that's why these points have been at the forefront for me lately.

 

[intrigued]

OK, here I am again, dammit!

I'd like to sincerely thank you guys. You've given me excellent food for thought, and actually, tools that make sense to me and give me hope. Thank you very much.

Oh, and I would like to clear up one thing. I'm not the one seeing things through yesterdays eyes. This leads me to realize everyone around me needs to reprogram themselves, as well, lol.

Thanks again, very much.

 

[ahooohgah]

I hope the thread ain't finished!

I am usually the kind of person that takes on another person's point of view pretty easily too so that's why these points have been at the forefront for me lately.

That's me. I can see both sides of many issues, and it frustrates the hell out of me. But it's slowly changing. In my self education studies, that very characteristic is a sign of weak boundaries. That is, not having a clear identity that is all me.

Anyway, speaking of the subconcious level of your reactions, (excellent post, Nightblade) I realized I had to become more aware of the moment, and how things affected me in the present. I didn't always realize till later that someone had violated my boundaries. I felt things, but I had to think about it a while. I was finally able to realize the funny feelings I was having were good indicators that something bad was happening. I learned to be more receptive, and to pay attention to what I was feeling. Once I did that, then I could respond in a somewhat appropriate manner. I learned how to defend myself. The automatic reponses are slowly becoming trained to be more healthy.

 

[Nightblade]

OK, here I am again, dammit!

I'd like to sincerely thank you guys. You've given me excellent food for thought, and actually, tools that make sense to me and give me hope. Thank you very much.

Oh, and I would like to clear up one thing. I'm not the one seeing things through yesterdays eyes. This leads me to realize everyone around me needs to reprogram themselves, as well, lol.

Thanks again, very much.

yes indeed, it's safe to say that about everyone, i think...we're all in need of a state of reprogramming...and quite frequently throughout our lives too...

this is the essence of Life...every once in a while a complete breakdown is in order...preconceptions, attitudes, beliefs, etc...and you re-assemble and re-program yourself so that you can incorporate change into your life...in my opinion, this is very necessary...the alternative is stagnation, and we all know where that leads...

 

[MagicFingers]

From group therapy

What workshop did the 'feel-think-act' triangle come from? Haven't heard that one, but it seems like a good concept.

My ex and I used to often go to a "free" group therapy meeting that was held once a week. It was run by long-time-recovering alcoholic Family Psychologist. He used that triangle many times to illustrate a point.

AND, I had 3, count 'em, THREE, opportunities to become very angry and react to some really stupid things other drivers were doing on my way home today! However, I DIDN'T. I just smiled and let it go, arriving home much calmer than I would have if I had responded!
So, a big THANKS for this thread Intrigued!

 

[GeorgeWBush]

When i get stressed out or use to since most of my stress is gone but i use to have a puching bag i would spend a half hour punching it then break something or hit.

I only hit one person in my life after i blew my top i have a bad temper and when it blow it watch out.

I broke the guys jaw and it was at school but i never got in trouble there were over 100 people that saw it the other guy lost big time because he could not play baseball he lost his chance at getting his college paid for.

I was just asked why. I had a bad day that day from the time i got up but i found out a class i took in jr. high did not count on credits and i would have to make it up in night class.

But i try and release it in a way that will not cost me money.

 

[Nightblade]

...and then there's another of my favorite elements of the human experience...and that would be, none other than...

Free Will

...see for me, this doesn't work as straightforward as some would have you believe...nor does it work so directly and definitely in my life, except in the cases where i've managed to make myself truly exercise it at all...as i understand it, the most common and accepted definition and application for Free Will will basically allow for people to simply make the decisions they wish to make, and then they can watch their lives unfold before their eyes...

for me, i can't jump right from A)making the decision, to B) enjoying the result...no, unfortunately mine works something like having to trick myself into using these decision-making abilities...trick myself into having that thought-pause in that critical moment when it's needed...trick myself into using a delay-of-gratification technique to make sure that i take care of what needs taken care of...lol...

this is, and sounds, really absurd...but, nonetheless, that is my malfunction...perhaps someone who benefits more easily from Free Will can enlighten me sometime...

 

[intrigued]

The only free will I've ever experienced was in coming out with my initial gut response, as I just can't seem to stop myself. I'm very much a "let's cut to the chase" kind of person. I'm also a Ten Commandments kind of person, in a sense. Right is right, wrong is wrong, and yes, I have tons of grays, probably too many, actually. These "grays" have nothing to do with how people should treat eachother, though. I'm crystal clear on that one, and cannot understand why people that love eachother can be so cruel to one another. I know now that it's because they won't stop seeing things through yesterdays eyes. What I would give to just be able to live today---free and clear and in the moment, but it just isn't going to happen. There are more "associations" than there are breaths that I take.

Little has changed since I started this thread. I've tried to seek clarification of what someone has done or said, in a very nice, sweet, calm manner because I truly want resolution, but yesterdays eyes prevent the other person from answering freely---they accuse me of having only one answer I want to hear, so what's the point in answering me? That is so damn wrong, and it leaves me nowhere.
I don't believe in all these stuff about "how you react will set the stage for how they react". I'm very sorry, it just doesn't work. I have all out begged for communication that is honest so that those involved can finally heal and go forward, even if it's only in tiny, baby steps. Zero results.

My options are cut and run, be it emotionally or physically, or live in this dead place. Try explaining this to your heart.

 

[cecelia]

Wow. This is quite a thread....

I was raised to believe that, if you're nice and patient with other people, they will be the same way with you. Of course, I learned that this isn't true as much as I'd like to beieve it.

I'm not good with confrontation and have always tried to avoid it, but I'm learning that this is not necessarily a good thing. Constant submission left me feeling powerless and did nothing to create the respect I felt I deserved. Everytime these confrontations occurred (usually in the form of criticism) I said nothing and laid another brick in my protective wall. Finally, the wall got so high that no light or air was coming through and I felt like I was suffocating. I hated him for being such a shithead and I began to hate myself for putting up with it in the name of peace when it was really fear.

I don't know what happened, but I guess the day finally came when I had had enough. Although I can't say that my reaction changed, my response certainly did. After one too many pissy comments, I calmy responded with a "Fuck you...".

Not very original, I know, but the effect and result were quite memorable. For an instant, he looked at me like he didn't recognize me and was actually speechless (for a change). I'm not saying that either of us has made any great changes but I will say that he's more careful about picking his battles (and one brick fell out of my wall).

It has been said that people treat us the way we allow them to treat us. In many circumstances, I believe that's true - at least in a 'one on one' situation. As far as such battles not being personal, I can't say I buy that. I think they're very personal.

The 'spaghetti sauce' incidents may seem very trivial in and of themselves but often they're the mortar that hold those larger bricks in place.

 

[Cathleen]

<snip>

It has been said that people treat us the way we allow them to treat us. In many circumstances, I believe that's true - at least in a 'one on one' situation. As far as such battles not being personal, I can't say I buy that. I think they're very personal.

The 'spaghetti sauce' incidents may seem very trivial in and of themselves but often they're the mortar that hold those larger bricks in place.

Cecelia, please excuse the large snip. I also believe it is all very personal. Your analogy about the mortar holding the bricks is so true. I've worked at that proverbial wall and what I found was that it isn't so much the bricks but the mortar. Thanks for giving me a visual on that ~ very nicely said Cecilia.

 

[LadyJeanne]

I applaud your soul searching and your struggle to make sense of what's going on within yourself. Speaking as one of those peacemakers and conciliators mentioned above (programmed in childhood, always tiptoeing around dad's temper), I've learned to see that there are often multiple, legitimate perspectives on a situation, each eliciting many possible reactions. Electing to view a situation from a perspective that allows you to deflect someone's hurtful words or actions is easier than changing someone's behavior.

This doesn't mean you have to be a doormat or compromise your beliefs. It does mean you have to accept other people's shades of gray, or at least try to understand them, instead of thinking in terms of black and white and who's 'wrong' and who's 'right'. Everyone is messed up in some way or other, so I view people as 'works in progress' which makes it easier for me to shrug something off.

Using your spaghetti sauce example, the husband believes that buying more when you already have a lot is wasteful and unnecessary. If he accepts that his wife has a need to try something different, and that her need is as legitimate from her perspective as his own, he can still retain his own beliefs without really caring that they end up with another jar of spaghetti sauce.

If he takes the perspective that he's choosing to be compassionate toward her needs, he won't feel as though he's submitting and won't react by arguing and fuming and feeling the need to prove he's right and she's wrong.

 

[LadyJeanne]

I applaud your soul searching and your struggle to make sense of what's going on within yourself. Speaking as one of those peacemakers and conciliators mentioned above (programmed in childhood, always tiptoeing around dad's temper), I've learned to see that there are often multiple, legitimate perspectives on a situation, each eliciting many possible reactions. Electing to view a situation from a perspective that allows you to deflect someone's hurtful words or actions is easier than changing someone's behavior.

This doesn't mean you have to be a doormat or compromise your beliefs. It does mean you have to accept other people's shades of gray, or at least try to understand them, instead of thinking in terms of black and white and who's 'wrong' and who's 'right'. Everyone is messed up in some way or other, so I view people as 'works in progress' which makes it easier for me to shrug something off.

Using your spaghetti sauce example, the husband believes that buying more when you already have a lot is wasteful and unnecessary. If he accepts that his wife has a need to try something different, and that her need is as legitimate from her perspective as his own, he can still retain his own beliefs without really caring that they end up with another jar of spaghetti sauce.

If he takes the perspective that he's choosing to be compassionate toward her needs, he won't feel as though he's submitting and won't react by arguing and fuming and feeling the need to prove he's right and she's wrong.

And by no means am I telling you that you should try to see things my way! I'm just saying, that's how my peacemaking mind sees it.




...see? conciliator in action...