Replies to Dawkins, Harris, etc. Atheism; religion

Pure

Fiel a Verdad
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With the spate of books defending atheism and arguing the evils of religion--those by Dawkins and Sam Harris, for example--the first lengthy responses are finally appearing. Here's one from the NY Times. Excerpts, esp regarding 'objective values.'


Beyond Belief

[a review of]
THE GOD DELUSION
By Richard Dawkins.
406 pp. Houghton Mifflin Company. $27.

By JIM HOLT
Published: October 22, 2006
NY Times.


Richard Dawkins, who holds the interesting title of “Charles Simonyi professor of the public understanding of science” at Oxford University, is a master of scientific exposition and synthesis. When it comes to his own specialty, evolutionary biology, there is none better. But the purpose of this book, his latest of many, is not to explain science. It is rather, as he tells us, “to raise consciousness,” which is quite another thing.

The nub of Dawkins’s consciousness-raising message is that to be an atheist is a “brave and splendid” aspiration. Belief in God is not only a delusion, he argues, but a “pernicious” one. On a scale of 1 to 7, where 1 is certitude that God exists and 7 is certitude that God does not exist, Dawkins rates himself a 6: “I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.”

Dawkins’s case against religion follows an outline that goes back to Bertrand Russell’s classic 1927 essay “Why I Am Not a Christian.” First, discredit the traditional reasons for supposing that God exists. (“God” is here taken to denote the Judeo-Christian deity, presumed to be eternal, all-powerful, all-good and the creator of the world.) Second, produce an argument or two supporting the contrary hypothesis, that God does not exist.

Third, cast doubt on the transcendent origins of religion by showing that it has a purely natural explanation. Finally, show that we can have happy and meaningful lives without worshiping a deity, and that religion, far from being a necessary prop for morality, actually produces more evil than good. The first three steps are meant to undermine the truth of religion; the last goes to its pragmatic value.

What Dawkins brings to this approach is a couple of fresh arguments — no mean achievement, considering how thoroughly these issues have been debated over the centuries — and a great deal of passion. The book fairly crackles with brio. Yet reading it can feel a little like watching a Michael Moore movie. There is lots of good, hard-hitting stuff about the imbecilities of religious fanatics and frauds of all stripes, but the tone is smug and the logic occasionally sloppy.
[…]
We now know that our universe burst into being some 13 billion years ago (the theory of the Big Bang, as it happens, was worked out by a Belgian priest), and that its initial conditions seem to have been “fine tuned” so that life would eventually arise. If you are not religiously inclined, you might take these as brute facts and be done with the matter. But if you think that there must be some ultimate explanation for the improbable leaping-into-existence of the harmonious, biofriendly cosmos we find ourselves in, then the God hypothesis is at least rational to adhere to, isn’t it?

No, it’s not, says Dawkins, whereupon he brings out what he views as “the central argument of my book.” At heart, this argument is an elaboration of the child’s question “But Mommy, who made God?” To posit God as the ground of all being is a nonstarter, Dawkins submits, for “any God capable of designing a universe, carefully and foresightfully tuned to lead to our evolution, must be a supremely complex and improbable entity who needs an even bigger explanation than the one he is supposed to provide.” Thus the God hypothesis is “very close to being ruled out by the laws of probability.”


Dawkins relies here on two premises: first, that a creator is bound to be more complex, and hence improbable, than his creation (you never, for instance, see a horseshoe making a blacksmith); and second, that to explain the improbable in terms of the more improbable is no explanation at all. Neither of these is among the “laws of probability,” as he suggests. The first is hotly disputed by theologians, who insist, in a rather woolly metaphysical way, that God is the essence of simplicity. […]

If God is indeed more complex and improbable than his creation, does that rule him out as a valid explanation for the universe? The beauty of Darwinian evolution, as Dawkins never tires of observing, is that it shows how the simple can give rise to the complex. But not all scientific explanation follows this model.

In physics, for example, the law of entropy implies that, for the universe as a whole, order always gives way to disorder; thus, if you want to explain the present state of the universe in terms of the past, you are pretty much stuck with explaining the probable (messy) in terms of the improbable (neat). It is far from clear which explanatory model makes sense for the deepest question, the one that, Dawkins complains, his theologian friends keep harping on: why does the universe exist at all?

Darwinian processes can take you from simple to complex, but they can’t take you from Nothing to Something. If there is an ultimate explanation for our contingent and perishable world, it would seemingly have to appeal to something that is both necessary and imperishable, which one might label “God.” Of course, it can’t be known for sure that there is such an explanation. Perhaps, as Russell thought, “the universe is just there, and that’s all.”

[…] Why is it that all human cultures have religion if, as Dawkins believes he has proved, it rests on a delusion? Many thinkers — Marx, Freud, Durkheim — have produced natural histories of religion, arguing that it arose to serve some social or psychological function, such as, in Freud’s account, the fulfillment of repressed wishes toward a father-figure.

Dawkins’s own attempt at a natural history is Darwinian, but not in the way you might expect. He is skeptical that religion has any survival value, contending that its cost in blood and guilt outweighs any conceivable benefits. Instead, he attributes religion to a “misfiring” of something else that is adaptively useful; namely, a child’s evolved tendency to believe its parents. Religious ideas, he thinks, are viruslike “memes” that multiply by infecting the gullible brains of children. […]Religious beliefs, on this view, benefit neither us nor our genes; they benefit themselves.

Dawkins’s gullible-child proposal is, as he concedes, just one of many Darwinian hypotheses that have been speculatively put forward to account for religion. (Another is that religion is a byproduct of our genetically programmed tendency to fall in love.) Perhaps one of these hypotheses is true. If so, what would that say about the truth of religious beliefs themselves?

The story Dawkins tells about religion might also be told about science or ethics. All ideas can be viewed as memes that replicate by jumping from brain to brain. Some of these ideas, Dawkins observes, spread because they are good for us, in the sense that they raise the likelihood of our genes getting into the next generation; others — like, he claims, religion — spread because normally useful parts of our minds “misfire.”

Ethical values, he suggests, fall into the first category. Altruism, for example, benefits our selfish genes when it is lavished on close kin who share copies of those genes, or on non-kin who are in a position to return the favor. But what about pure “Good Samaritan” acts of kindness? These, Dawkins says, could be “misfirings,” although, he hastens to add, misfirings of a “blessed, precious” sort, unlike the nasty religious ones.

But the objectivity of ethics is undermined by Dawkins’s logic just as surely as religion is. The evolutionary biologist E. O. Wilson, in a 1985 paper written with the philosopher Michael Ruse, put the point starkly: ethics “is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate,” and “the way our biology enforces its ends is by making us think that there is an objective higher code to which we are all subject.” In reducing ideas to “memes” that propagate by various kinds of “misfiring,” Dawkins is, willy-nilly, courting what some have called Darwinian nihilism.

[…]
Despite the many flashes of brilliance in this book, Dawkins’s failure to appreciate just how hard philosophical questions about religion can be makes reading it an intellectually frustrating experience. As long as there are no decisive arguments for or against the existence of God, a certain number of smart people will go on believing in him, just as smart people reflexively believe in other things for which they have no knock-down philosophical arguments, like free will, or objective values, or the existence of other minds.
 
"Courting what some have called Darwinian nihilism" strikes me as mere name calling. I think the impulse to religion is fear. Certainly, there is much which is not known. If one fears that, one may choose to believe it to be known to someone benevolent.

The big bang calls for an antecedent as well. Nothing is without cause, so far as we can determine. But a wad of energy is a pretty simple thing, whereas a causeless hyperintelligent omnicient being who chose to roll the wad of energy just so and send it down like a bowler sends the ball? That one is a much more complex thing to explain. This reviewer seems to be defending an essentially deist position, placing his god in a lab inventing big bangs, a god who defines the natural laws and stands back for a few thousands of millions of years to watch the playing out of them toward their heat-death.

I don't imagine Dawkins has any real objection to such an austere deism, except for Occam's razor. His problem is with people who would review his book quite differently, pointing out the undoubted truth of revelation and the transcendent origins of Christ Jesus. THAT kind of reviewer is the kind that is editing basic biology out of American textbooks. Dawkins wouldn't have to exert himself so if the attacks of that kind of person hadn't been fucking with the heads of our children.
 
cant //I think the impulse to religion is fear.//

P: Maybe the desire for knowlege, e.g. in scientific inquiry, is ultimately related to fear [courtesy of Nietzsche]. So?

Wilson said [and Dawkins agrees, i take it] ethics “is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate,” and “the way our biology enforces its ends is by making us think that there is an objective higher code to which we are all subject.” [Holt replies] In reducing ideas to “memes” that propagate by various kinds of “misfiring,” Dawkins is, willy-nilly, courting what some have called Darwinian nihilism.

P: perhaps the point could be rephrased, so that the result is utter skepticism about knowing. iow, maybe any scientific theory that's popular--let's say the big bang-- is simply the result of 'memes' passed along, according to our genetic make up. and our genes make us think it's objective truth when there's no reason to think so.
(oh... our 'reasons'? what appear to be reasons are just that way [convincing] because our genes make them appear so.).
 
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A couple of years ago there was a set of articles in Foreign Policy under the heading The Most Dangerous Ideas.

One article was Undermining Free Will. That quote of Wilson's bought it to mind.

The True Believers, whether of faith, science or economics, in spite of their objections, generally don't belief in free will.

My first idea of a reply to this is to give them a shot in the mouth and tell them, "I meant to do that." :devil:

I'd never do it. I do have a choice in the matter after all. ;)
 
Pure said:
cant //I think the impulse to religion is fear.//

P: Maybe the desire for knowlege, e.g. in scientific inquiry, is ultimately related to fear [courtesy of Nietzsche]. So?

Wilson said [and Dawkins agrees, i take it] ethics “is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate,” and “the way our biology enforces its ends is by making us think that there is an objective higher code to which we are all subject.” [Holt replies] In reducing ideas to “memes” that propagate by various kinds of “misfiring,” Dawkins is, willy-nilly, courting what some have called Darwinian nihilism.

P: perhaps the point could be rephrased, so that the result is utter skepticism about knowing. iow, maybe any scientific theory that's popular--let's say the big bang-- is simply the result of 'memes' passed along, according to our genetic make up. and our genes make us think it's objective truth when there's no reason to think so.
(oh... our 'reasons'? what appear to be reasons are just that way [convincing] because our genes make them appear so.).
Yes., a sugar coating about a mile thick will be helpful in getting the public to accept these scary new concepts..

oh, wait- isn't that a good definition of Religion?
 
There's a story my husband related to me:

When he was a teen, he and a bunch of other teens went camping. Being from the city, he rarely got to see the stars and he sat beside the campfire, staring up, just delighting in the vast, star studded night sky. The girl next to him, however, refused to look at them.

"Why not?" he asked her.
"They make me feel small and insignificant."

He couldn't understand this. Looking at the stars all he saw were the incredible and infinate number of possiblities for so many things. Other planets, other earths, other creatures, the birth of galaxies....

But most folk feel like that girl. What science tells them makes them feel small and unimportant. That there is no all-powerful-father who made them out of love, watches over them because they are special, and cares for them in particular...above all the rest that is out there. They'd rather not believe that the universe is that old, that vast, that complicated. Humanity MUST be important and there MUST be a reason for it all and there MUST be some order and purpose.

Perhaps what we really need is less fragile egos.
 
Life itself is important because it's so freaking rare.

There's a science museum here in Toronto, the Ontario Science Centre, that I visit occasionally.

It used to have a film on the powers of ten. The film started with the picture of a man sleeping. It was shot from one metre up and showed a one metre square area. The camera zoomed back so that every ten seconds the distance and area shown increased by a power of ten. So at ten seconds you were ten metres away and the area was ten by ten. At twenty seconds, one hundred metres away and the area one hundred by one hundred.

At about ten to the fifth power, you couldn't see the man anymore. At ten to the eighth, you could see the whole planet, and that there is life on it but no details. At ten to the twelfth, you can't see the planet anymore and the sun barely. Before too long you can't even see our galaxy in the picture.

So life, compared to the vast bulk of the universe, is vanishingly rare. Rarer than diamonds and rarer even than trans-uranic elements.

We just think it's common, and cheap, because life occurs in rich patches. But that's an illusion.

Has life a purpose and order? Haven't the slightest.

Is it valuable beyond our imagining? Yes.
 
There were some documentaries along these kind of lines on Channel 4 in England a while back, and I watched some of them out of curiousity. The scientist hosting and narrating the program was insufferably smug and self-satisfied, completely confident in the superiority of his beliefs and I spent half of my time laughing at some of the leaps of logic he used.

The thing which a lot of atheists pass over, and I have seen this attitude on this thread already, is that atheism cannot be proved, just the same as religion cannot be proved. It is the universal indefinable and anyone who lays claims to certainty about it is setting themselves up to be mocked.

If you believe totally that there is no God, then good for you. However, if you use your belief to make snarks and belittle religious people as holding childish delusions, acting as though your point of view is so insuperably superior that anyone holding an opposing one is to be pitied as ignorant of the truth, then you are no better than the fundamentalist Christians who hold up the Bible as their 'proof' that you should think as they do.

The Earl
 
As an agnostic I find it hard to accept any religion but do not desparage those who have a belief - that would be discourteous.
 
NYT Article said:
No, it’s not, says Dawkins, whereupon he brings out what he views as “the central argument of my book.” At heart, this argument is an elaboration of the child’s question “But Mommy, who made God?” To posit God as the ground of all being is a nonstarter, Dawkins submits, for “any God capable of designing a universe, carefully and foresightfully tuned to lead to our evolution, must be a supremely complex and improbable entity who needs an even bigger explanation than the one he is supposed to provide.” Thus the God hypothesis is “very close to being ruled out by the laws of probability.”

Holy crap, I hope that's not the core of Dawkins' actual argument, unless he's going for satire, because that's just William Paley's watchmaker argument stated in the negative. Instead of coming across a pocketwatch in on a hillside and concluding there must be a watchmaker, you meet God on the hillside and conclude there must be a Godmaker.

Doesn't work in either direction. :D
 
Godness

Dawkins and Holt share one delusion themselves.Their subject God is the all powerful philosopher God .This academics notion of God is not any one of the Gods that the vast majority of mankind relates to through by various belief systems.

I would contend that the usual view of God in western society for example is of a kindly old man in a long white beard who gives comfort to a lot of pretty turgid lives.The Moslem God ,the Judeo/Christian God(s) Hindu and animist gods even the Great Mother in her many guises, none of them lend themselves to academic analyses because all Gods are born in the minds of men. All are equally legitimate in the minds of their creators. The fact that that all Gods are created by men does not in any way lessen their omnipotence to their believers.

My God can be found by me within myself .He/she/it exists as a spiritual experience and everyone else is part of its godness but I 'm not going to ask you to believe in that!!!
 
nice posting, coldd! it's been said before that most people's God is not the God of the philosophers!
 
I don't think it's a nice post -- it shows that the poster hasn't read Dawkins' book, for one thing.

Dawkins, throughout his book specifically addresses the "kindly old man" god, and the rather desperate attempts to modernise him that have been made by theists over the years. He disposes of the "philospher's god" too, in his analysis of the appropriation of Einstein's ideas by theists.
 
but explaura,

surely the question is, 'does that_mysterious something_ have anything to do with humans?' 'does it/she in any way support, favor, reward, etc.--IOW care about, so to say-- etc. any human action over another? (gandhi vs. hitler).

also, surely we know there are all kinds of things our senses don't register, e.g. viruses, protons, small amounts of radioactivity (or even large). one question though is, "do you think or guess there's a something that, in principle, forever and always is NOT sensible, either directly or indirectly (with a microscope, particle detector, etc.?



---

I do not trust my senses and reason to give me a full picture of the universe. If it comes to probability, I say its unlikely that our ability to perceive and to deduce could circumscribe the full richness of existance. I think that there is something beyond me that I cannot comprehend.
 
TheEarl said:
There were some documentaries along these kind of lines on Channel 4 in England a while back, and I watched some of them out of curiousity. The scientist hosting and narrating the program was insufferably smug and self-satisfied, completely confident in the superiority of his beliefs and I spent half of my time laughing at some of the leaps of logic he used.

The thing which a lot of atheists pass over, and I have seen this attitude on this thread already, is that atheism cannot be proved, just the same as religion cannot be proved. It is the universal indefinable and anyone who lays claims to certainty about it is setting themselves up to be mocked.

If you believe totally that there is no God, then good for you. However, if you use your belief to make snarks and belittle religious people as holding childish delusions, acting as though your point of view is so insuperably superior that anyone holding an opposing one is to be pitied as ignorant of the truth, then you are no better than the fundamentalist Christians who hold up the Bible as their 'proof' that you should think as they do.

The Earl
Except that I don't edit biology out of the biology texts.

If they're setting themselves up to be mocked, then, for heaven's sake, let us snark at 'em. You have visited this priest-ridden country, and your eyes, presumably, were open. Quite a good deal of damage is being done by these people. Snarks are a miracle of forbearance.
 
...

Never mind

Only to say, I've seen this Dawkins cat here and there on television.

If he's supposed to be some standard-bearer for atheism, then I am sorely tempted to go back to at least a defiant diesm. Just mouthing the same shit. Nothing new, nothing challenging. Admittedly I haven't read his works, but nothing about him interests me in doing so.
Another indication of the downward spiral we find ourselves in.
At least Darwin offered a challenge to what I'd thought I believed.

Christ.
We're fucked.
 
Reality is that most religions, and I mean no offence to the faithful thereof (I respect their passion, after all), are cooked up by insignificant men who can't get very far otherwise. Just look at some of these nobodies: Charles Taze Russell (Jehovah's Witnesses), Joseph Smith (Mormons), Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science), David Koresh, Jim Jones, Augustine (a failed philosophy student who saw the rise of his mother's Church as his meal ticket), Constantine (I mention the so-called 13th Apostle because he was the wrongful heir to the Roman throne and seized it with a little help from his friend, the bishops), Marshall Applewhite, L. Ron Hubbard (who else can explain Tom Cruise), Aimee Semple McPherson (a few chips short of a pub table) Carrie Nation (she picked on the wrong proprietor and got killed for her trouble), and a long-line of men like Origen who couldn't stand sex (probably because they didn't get any- I suspect that Origen's self-castration was actually motivated by a constant case of blue balls).

My apologies in advance for any offence I've caused to any religious folk. Simply noting that religious leadership is a clever way to achieve fame and fortune. If it weren't for religion, Jimmy Swaggart would be the obscure and forgotten cousin of Jerry Lee Lewis. Jerry Falwell would be...well, I don't honestly know. Pat Robertson would simply be another senator's son with a silver spoon and a membership in a local country club (no "coloureds or ladies", of course). Jim Bakker would be your next-door neighbour and the sappy used car salesman.
 
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Okay, everyone does realize that this is hardly new right?

Long long time ago, Dawkins wrote "The Blind Watchmaker" which attacked the "watchmaker" theory of god's existence and also "River out of Eden" which also attacked many of the christian "proof" arguments.

Indeed Dawkins's twin roles have been as evolutionary biologist and as one who occasionally pokes holes in pseudo-scientific religous theory. He is to my understanding a flaming atheist who sees no shame in such a designation as well as the brilliant mind which wrote "The Selfish Gene". One of the best written post-Darwin books on evolutionary biology theory on a macro scale.

Arguing him on the proceeds of this one book as if his merits or faults are both novel and completely apparent upon this work is patently absurd. The random name-calling is counter-productive and seems indicative of the response all get when responding to current American monoculture or theories.

Does the man disbelieve? Indeed. So? He mainly attacks theories that claim to "prove" God's existence. There has yet to be a comprehensive proof that God fails to exist. And I doubt Dawkins feels that he has done so with any of his books. He has argued his viewpoint and fought theological theories and wrote evolutionary biology.






It is interesting how we pawns fall in line. The anti-Christians want a war. A war between secular and faith and also between faiths. And so the cries warrant and no one checks to see that if you throw out all the bluster there are only two "religions". There is "good" religion: Faith or nonfaith built on helping other people, good works, not increasing the pain of others, non-evangelism. And "bad" religion: Faith or nonfaith built on hurting others, conquering "heathens", evangelising, destruction.

The worst part is that the bad religions perpetuate themselves by inflicting so much vitriol that they swing those of good religion into bad religions in defense or in the rush of jingoism. They will not be satisfied until carnage is completed. It is sad and it makes people angry and defensive and so on and so on.



There are good Christians, good Atheists, good Muslims, good Jews, good Buddhists, good Hindus, good Pagans, good Wiccans. And frankly it doesn't really matter. We can roll our eyes as people believe or disbelieve and laugh at the arguments they use and how they contradict with what we "know" to be true. But at the end of the day it needs to be "Mostly Harmless" like our planet according to the good-natured atheist author.
 
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