Reinforcement

[callinectes2]

No sarcasm.

I'm just rolling my eyes at all the over analyzers and mushy philosophizers.

Ahh, my apologies. Don't listen to me though, I am obviously a poser because I thrive on and need praise and positive reinforcement.

 

[callinectes2]

new shoes for the perfect blowjob?

on this one, i'm happy with a belly full of cum.

Yeah, but think how good you'd look wearing beautiful new shoes whilst giving said blow job.

 

[CurlyKat]

if you don't understand positive reinforcement, you should do some research on the psychologist B.F. Skinner. if you received the same reaction for every thing you did, how would you know what your master desired? have you ever been told "thank you" or "good job?" simple positive affirmations let us know that what we are doing pleases those around us. when your master takes your food to work, and comes home and lets you know that people thought he had the best meal, that is a positive reinforcement. it encourages you to continue doing good work.

This, pretty much. While I do LOVE pleasing him, I need to know a couple of things from him in the form of feedback. One is that I did what was needed or expected of me correctly. Two is that he is pleased with me or that it was a good job (yes, the two are different things).

Without some sort of notice or recognition, I get blurry on where the line is as far as expected, preferable, or no-no behavior. It doesn't have to be anything big or special, just a simple "good girl" will do. If it's something that pushes me or stretches me, however, a little more care just to recognize how hard I tried to please him is nice. These might be things like extra time together, or comforting, or any of those "sweet" things to show he cares for me.

While it is indeed a D/s relationship and I know my role in it, there is still an element of caring and personal interest in our relationship. Without knowing he cares about me and realizes I really am doing my best, none of it works. For me, the positive reinforcement is just as beneficial (if not more so) as the negative reinforcement.

 

[unregistered]

 

[bhndblueyes88]

no offense YC, but i'm still kinda confused by the idea that good behavior, from a submissive person to their Dominant partner, needs to be reinforced or encouraged. they want to serve you, please you, make you happy...that is a given. they don't want to disappoint or displease you, that too is a given. what more could you possibly want?

if someone actually needs rewards or little treats or congratulatory pats in order to be good, then i would question that person's submissiveness. yeah, everyone appreciates being appreciated, but to need that stuff to do what is your place to do anyway?...or to provide better service or behavior because of it? that just doesn't compute.

Think of it this way.

You have a Labrador Retriever. You're trying to train it to do tricks, and it really wants to do tricks for you!!! If you just say "good dog" so it knows it did the trick properly, the dog will likely learn and continue to do tricks for you. In such a dog, the dog will likely even be happy merely to please you.

But now, you say "good dog!!" give it a head pat and maybe even a bit of biscuit!! Oooo that dog is going to try harder, learn faster, and practically wag its tail right off with joy.

Not to say that a sub is a "dog" or subhuman...but human behavior patterns are not as super-animal as we would like to believe. Even if it is not needed any animal will respond faster and more willingly with more than affirmation of doing the correct task. It's basic psychology.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Well it could be argued that for such a sub serving is naturally rewarding, but lets not get into that.

that could be true too, you wouldn't get an argument from me there. succeeding in pleasing your dominant partner is a reward in itself. but i kinda got the sense that wasn't the kind of reward you were talking about.

At the most basic level, reward = yes I like that, do it more, and punishment = no I don't like that, do it less.

i have to disagree with that. going for basic basic, i'd say reward = this is a special treat for your extraordinary/exceptional work, and punishment = you have seriously flocked up, never ever do that again, and i mean NEVER.

Except that we aren't computers and have emotions which catalyze lots of our actions. So a reward makes the sub feel good, which causes the sub to favor whatever action produced the good feeling.

So you see if sub gives the perfect blow job, is happy about that, gets praised, and gets new shoes. That's a deal not to be resisted.

i understand recognition and praise can feel pretty darn good. for some folks little gifts and treats (like the spa day or new shoes) feel pretty darn good. i just don't understand that as a motivator, for a submissive person in a D/s relationship.

it's like, every once in a while Daddy will surprise me by taking me out to a movie i've been wanting to see, or an after-dinner trip to the ice cream shop i love, or the best of all...taking the day off and just smothering me with his attention and affection all day long. these things all feel great, they give me the warm fuzzies big time. but they don't motivate me to serve, or serve better. they help strengthen the intimacy between us, all the lovey-dovey mushy stuff, but they have nothing to do with the way i serve him. i strive to serve to the best of my abilities regardless...because well 1. that's my job; and 2. that's my nature.

And then you can also go way deep into the science at which point motivation and quantity of behavior technically aren't linked. Reward pathways don't actually monitor the behavior itself, they control approach actions, which are then followed by the behavior in question. However even when motivation pathways are eliminated, some behaviors are still favored over others, they just aren't initiated. And then theirs a whole clusterfuck of crazy scientists fighting each other through article medium.

you've lost me here, lol.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Think of it this way.

You have a Labrador Retriever. You're trying to train it to do tricks, and it really wants to do tricks for you!!! If you just say "good dog" so it knows it did the trick properly, the dog will likely learn and continue to do tricks for you. In such a dog, the dog will likely even be happy merely to please you.

But now, you say "good dog!!" give it a head pat and maybe even a bit of biscuit!! Oooo that dog is going to try harder, learn faster, and practically wag its tail right off with joy.

Not to say that a sub is a "dog" or subhuman...but human behavior patterns are not as super-animal as we would like to believe. Even if it is not needed any animal will respond faster and more willingly with more than affirmation of doing the correct task. It's basic psychology.

it makes total sense with adorable labrador retrievers...not so much with human submissives. of course as submissives we want/need to know whether or not we are pleasing, whether or not we are getting it right. and as previously stated, successfully pleasing someone is its own reward. the "good girl," or even just a smile or nod of satisfaction. some sign to let you know you're doing what you're supposed to.

but the head pat and biscuit? give me that because you love me and want to give me that, not because you want to ensure i keep on doing my job.

 

[ownedsubgal]

when your master takes your food to work, and comes home and lets you know that people thought he had the best meal, that is a positive reinforcement. it encourages you to continue doing good work.

but that's the thing, it doesn't. i don't need encouragement in that area. if he never said a word to me about enjoying the lunch i packed, or the envy of his co-workers, every day i would still try my best to pack him the most pleasing and satisfying meal. as stated, yes of course it's important to know that i've pleased him. otherwise you are working blind. we need to know "yes, this is correct," and "no, this is incorrect." that is basic direction...not the "reward" system i think YC is referring to here.

 

[BiBunny]

In reading this thread, I think I just had one of those weird epiphanies where I now understand something about myself that had always baffled me before.

All my life, I've always felt like I've had to earn every scrap of love and attention and affection I've ever gotten. This belief, like most beliefs, is based partly in reality and partly in my own fears. I honestly believe that all love directed toward me is conditional, whether it really is or not.

So that's why I need to be rewarded. If I weren't, I'd be convinced that I was a horrible person, that everything I did sucked, and that everything that happened around me was my fault. I'm already that person who thinks that if someone around me is upset, it's me they're upset with.

So, basically, if you're not telling me I'm doing things right and well, I assume I'm doing them wrong and badly. And the more lavishly I'm praised/rewarded, the more secure I feel in what I've done. If I don't get that, I get so upset with what I perceive to be the "wrongness" of my actions or existence that I become completely useless for anything.

/screwed up person

 

[CurlyKat]

So, basically, if you're not telling me I'm doing things right and well, I assume I'm doing them wrong and badly. And the more lavishly I'm praised/rewarded, the more secure I feel in what I've done. If I don't get that, I get so upset with what I perceive to be the "wrongness" of my actions or existence that I become completely useless for anything.

Totally get this. For some reason that I have yet to figure out so I can deal with and correct, I assume that no feedback is bad feedback. If you say nothing, I assume I've done something horribly wrong and am a total failure. One way I've found that is helpful for repeat things is him saying up front once the habitual activity has started and we're both used to how it should go that I should assume he is happy and pleased unless he says otherwise. Really, having things spelled out for me in general help keep me out of my head.

 

[bhndblueyes88]

it makes total sense with adorable labrador retrievers...not so much with human submissives. of course as submissives we want/need to know whether or not we are pleasing, whether or not we are getting it right. and as previously stated, successfully pleasing someone is its own reward. the "good girl," or even just a smile or nod of satisfaction. some sign to let you know you're doing what you're supposed to.

but the head pat and biscuit? give me that because you love me and want to give me that, not because you want to ensure i keep on doing my job.

*Shrug* I used the dog analogy for simplicity. As I said, it's basic human psychology, and, as far as I know, being submissive doesn't suddenly change whether you're human. Rewards increase the desire to perform. Simple as that. It could be that you are different, however, you=/=everyone.

And I don't think anyone here has said that the "extra reward" should be required to insure good behavior.

bach. I don't know why I'm being so argumentative. You can ignore me entirely if you'd like Must just have a burr up my butt tonight.

 

[ownedsubgal]

*Shrug* I used the dog analogy for simplicity. As I said, it's basic human psychology, and, as far as I know, being submissive doesn't suddenly change whether you're human. Rewards increase the desire to perform. Simple as that. It could be that you are different, however, you=/=everyone.

And I don't think anyone here has said that the "extra reward" should be required to insure good behavior.

whether it's insuring good behavior, "encouraging" good behavior, or encouraging even better behavior...we are basically talking about motivation. my point is just that a submissive doesn't require external motivation to be good...the "desire" to please and not disappoint, that's always there anyway, is enough.

now if you are talking about what makes people happy and fulfilled, or thrive in a relationship, that's a different story of course. many submissives may very well need some kind of "reward" in order to achieve those things. but to do what is our nature to do? nah.

p.s. it's okay to disagree.

 

[KoPilot]

In reading this thread, I think I just had one of those weird epiphanies where I now understand something about myself that had always baffled me before.

All my life, I've always felt like I've had to earn every scrap of love and attention and affection I've ever gotten. This belief, like most beliefs, is based partly in reality and partly in my own fears. I honestly believe that all love directed toward me is conditional, whether it really is or not.

So that's why I need to be rewarded. If I weren't, I'd be convinced that I was a horrible person, that everything I did sucked, and that everything that happened around me was my fault. I'm already that person who thinks that if someone around me is upset, it's me they're upset with.

So, basically, if you're not telling me I'm doing things right and well, I assume I'm doing them wrong and badly. And the more lavishly I'm praised/rewarded, the more secure I feel in what I've done. If I don't get that, I get so upset with what I perceive to be the "wrongness" of my actions or existence that I become completely useless for anything.

/screwed up person

Good god, this is me too. :s

If I don't get that pat on the head and a "you did gud!" then I get anxious and start wondering if I'm up to par as a human being, basically.

I will be seeing someone next week about that anxiety though. Whew.

 

[ownedsubgal]

So, basically, if you're not telling me I'm doing things right and well, I assume I'm doing them wrong and badly. And the more lavishly I'm praised/rewarded, the more secure I feel in what I've done. If I don't get that, I get so upset with what I perceive to be the "wrongness" of my actions or existence that I become completely useless for anything.

/screwed up person

*hugs*


aw Bunny, you're not all that screwed up. lots of us have insecurity issues and don't seem to realize just how awesome we are.

maybe i'm screwed up in that while i like getting some praise from time to time, it makes me kind of uncomfortable too. in my brain i'm like, "are they being genuine, or just trying to make me feel better? are they taking some kind of pity on me? man i suck!" lol. it also tends to make me overly-analyze and obsess over whatever it is i'm doing.

so i really can't handle lavish or frequent praise. it would throw me out of my groove. just for life to keep running along smoothly is more than good enough for me.

 

[bhndblueyes88]

whether it's insuring good behavior, "encouraging" good behavior, or encouraging even better behavior...we are basically talking about motivation. my point is just that a submissive doesn't require external motivation to be good...the "desire" to please and not disappoint, that's always there anyway, is enough.

now if you are talking about what makes people happy and fulfilled, or thrive in a relationship, that's a different story of course. many submissives may very well need some kind of "reward" in order to achieve those things. but to do what is our nature to do? nah.

p.s. it's okay to disagree.

Oh it certainly is okay to disagree in general, but I am new still and it would be bad to go making enemies before making friends very much a tactical error!!! *nod*

 

[BiBunny]

*hugs*


aw Bunny, you're not all that screwed up. lots of us have insecurity issues and don't seem to realize just how awesome we are.

*Hugs back* Thank you. The same goes for you.

maybe i'm screwed up in that while i like getting some praise from time to time, it makes me kind of uncomfortable too. in my brain i'm like, "are they being genuine, or just trying to make me feel better? are they taking some kind of pity on me? man i suck!" lol. it also tends to make me overly-analyze and obsess over whatever it is i'm doing.

so i really can't handle lavish or frequent praise. it would throw me out of my groove. just for life to keep running along smoothly is more than good enough for me.

LOL, I do that sometimes, too. There's pretty much no winning with me.

 

[00Syd]

omg. Some of where this thread went is making me a little ragey.

*Stepping away slooowly*

 

[seela]

So, basically, if you're not telling me I'm doing things right and well, I assume I'm doing them wrong and badly. And the more lavishly I'm praised/rewarded, the more secure I feel in what I've done. If I don't get that, I get so upset with what I perceive to be the "wrongness" of my actions or existence that I become completely useless for anything.

/screwed up person

I'm the complete opposite of this. When people start praising my work, it just feels completely awkward to me and I feel like they're complimenting me just so that I wouldn't feel bad or whatever. My mind translates lavish praise as fake. I get a casual thanks sometimes when I've done something he didn't expect, but it's nothing constant to me. We don't really do punishments either, so we just roll how we roll.

We don't live together 24/7 and he doesn't expect me to tidy up his place every time I go over, but a lot of the time I'm there I actually clean the bathroom and kitchen. It's nice and dandy when he notices and thanks me, but in a way I get more pleasure in a very twisted way when he doesn't say anything to recognize my effort. My mind goes to this "ooh, I clean up his place and he really doesn't even care, I'm truly objectified and taken for granted and all that emotional masochism stuff" place and I'm far happier there than I am with the praise that makes me wonder if I'm really so juvenile that people have to fake so that I wouldn't be upset or something.

I suppose in our relationship the positive reinforcement is more big picture stuff. The general knowing that we're both happy and satisfied and the feeling that everything's just perfect is what thrives me.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

i understand recognition and praise can feel pretty darn good. for some folks little gifts and treats (like the spa day or new shoes) feel pretty darn good. i just don't understand that as a motivator, for a submissive person in a D/s relationship.

It's not a motivator, at least for me. It's just a bonus.

Mmm, it could also be a validation type thing, but then, we tend to need that as human beings, not just submissives.

it's like, every once in a while Daddy will surprise me by taking me out to a movie i've been wanting to see, or an after-dinner trip to the ice cream shop i love, or the best of all...taking the day off and just smothering me with his attention and affection all day long. these things all feel great, they give me the warm fuzzies big time. but they don't motivate me to serve, or serve better. they help strengthen the intimacy between us, all the lovey-dovey mushy stuff, but they have nothing to do with the way i serve him. i strive to serve to the best of my abilities regardless...because well 1. that's my job; and 2. that's my nature.

I can identify with this. Muchly so.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

This thread needs a theme song.

 

[myinnerslut]

Two words. "Good Girl."

If he says that I'm glowing.

Additionally, what everyone else has said, being petted, loved on, etc. The little bits of extra attention. Things like that.

 

[sardoniclaugh]

Think of it this way.

You have a Labrador Retriever. You're trying to train it to do tricks, and it really wants to do tricks for you!!! If you just say "good dog" so it knows it did the trick properly, the dog will likely learn and continue to do tricks for you. In such a dog, the dog will likely even be happy merely to please you.

But now, you say "good dog!!" give it a head pat and maybe even a bit of biscuit!! Oooo that dog is going to try harder, learn faster, and practically wag its tail right off with joy.

Not to say that a sub is a "dog" or subhuman...but human behavior patterns are not as super-animal as we would like to believe. Even if it is not needed any animal will respond faster and more willingly with more than affirmation of doing the correct task. It's basic psychology.

Boy, I never thought of dogs as subhuman. They're kind of superhuman in the ways that really count. Sure, they're lousy conversationalists and they can't open the door for themselves, but I've dated girls like that who weren't nearly as reliable or affectionate.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I'm the complete opposite of this. When people start praising my work, it just feels completely awkward to me and I feel like they're complimenting me just so that I wouldn't feel bad or whatever. My mind translates lavish praise as fake. I get a casual thanks sometimes when I've done something he didn't expect, but it's nothing constant to me. We don't really do punishments either, so we just roll how we roll.

We don't live together 24/7 and he doesn't expect me to tidy up his place every time I go over, but a lot of the time I'm there I actually clean the bathroom and kitchen. It's nice and dandy when he notices and thanks me, but in a way I get more pleasure in a very twisted way when he doesn't say anything to recognize my effort. My mind goes to this "ooh, I clean up his place and he really doesn't even care, I'm truly objectified and taken for granted and all that emotional masochism stuff" place and I'm far happier there than I am with the praise that makes me wonder if I'm really so juvenile that people have to fake so that I wouldn't be upset or something.

I suppose in our relationship the positive reinforcement is more big picture stuff. The general knowing that we're both happy and satisfied and the feeling that everything's just perfect is what thrives me.

omg we have way too much in common seela! from assuming any praise/compliments received is fake (and then getting upset that i'm such a loser people have to give me fake praise), to in a twisted way really thriving off serving, especially when it's something really really difficult and unpleasant, with no recognition whatsoever. it hurts my feelings just a little, but it also reminds me of what i am, so it's good for me. somehow though i don't view the praise and hoopla and stuff as good for me. yep i'm screwed up, lol.

 

[Aurantica]

For a masochist, punishment IS a reward. A punishment has to be something different, usually lack of attention. Which really means there have to be two sets of rules.

There's the "this is a fake rule that's cute when you break and will get you whipped" set. Like don't pass on my right side, or end a sentence with a preposition.
And the "no, really. don't do that" set.

Kind of like soft v. hard limits. Kind of.

As for rewards, obviously the joy of pleasing her beloved Sir du jour. Cookies. Privileges. Prezzies. Like the extent of the offense determines the extent of the punishment, the reward depends on the good behavior. Basic obedience and respect should be a baseline, and gets basic rewards of attention and care. Going above and beyond that baseline, anticipating wants and making extra effort can awaken a very warm and generous side of me, and when sufficiently aroused, this beast has been known to take over and make a lot of fuss over pyl.

Thats a very good way of putting it. I agree with you.

 

[callinectes2]

In reading this thread, I think I just had one of those weird epiphanies where I now understand something about myself that had always baffled me before.

All my life, I've always felt like I've had to earn every scrap of love and attention and affection I've ever gotten. This belief, like most beliefs, is based partly in reality and partly in my own fears. I honestly believe that all love directed toward me is conditional, whether it really is or not.

So that's why I need to be rewarded. If I weren't, I'd be convinced that I was a horrible person, that everything I did sucked, and that everything that happened around me was my fault. I'm already that person who thinks that if someone around me is upset, it's me they're upset with.

So, basically, if you're not telling me I'm doing things right and well, I assume I'm doing them wrong and badly. And the more lavishly I'm praised/rewarded, the more secure I feel in what I've done. If I don't get that, I get so upset with what I perceive to be the "wrongness" of my actions or existence that I become completely useless for anything.

/screwed up person

Yup, that is me right there.

It isn't that I need rewards for motivation so much as I need acknowledgment that I am pleasing him. The rewards sweeten the acknowledgment and he enjoys doing it. I guess that doesn't make me submissive to some but to the one who matters I am considered such.