Reflections on Gentleman Doms

[elli1]

(I'm going to try to use whole words first, before moving onto acronyms, because I'm aware this is, in part, an educational discussion thread, in which we are all learning: all following the same river, but using different tributaries and at different speeds.)

My understanding is that a Master/slave (M/s) relationship is indeed about a Total Power Exchange (TPE). I don't see how it could be called M/s otherwise. But for me M/s is a form of Dominance/submission (D/s). I don't see it as a peak or goal towards which all forms of D/s are striving. Perhaps one peak among many in a mountain range.

Now the key word in the recent discussion, I suspect, is 'dynamic'. That implies change, movement, kineticism: not a prison cell, concrete and static but a rope joining two people. Sometimes the rope will be taut - other times loose as the two bunch together. In most aspects of life the Dominant will be leading, but he may well desire his submissive to lead in certain agreed and discussed areas, depending on relative strengths and weaknesses.

After all - relationship is cognate with 'relational'. Think of a melody. It can be written down exactly, with tempo and dynamics strictly set out. Or, it can be transposed into a different key - or even changed more fundamentally but with the gaps between the notes remaining constant. The space between a Dom(me) and his/her submissive is a playground in itself (sic). Not a barrier which can never be breached.

I agree that total power exchange can be wonderful - I have been fortunate enough to experience it once and it was profoundly liberating. It is true in a way, too, to say that the sub's/slave's feelings are not the goal in such a relationship. But that is only true if the Dominant's feelings are not the goal either. After all, 'slave' is an analogy, not an exact facsimile. The goals may mostly, or even entirely, be set by the Dominant, but they should be joint goals which aim at deepening and enriching the relationship. The relationship itself becomes the third party in such situations, and it is the purpose of both partners to nurture it according to their role.

It is important to remember, however, in all this understandable talk of discussion and agreement, that although such things are vital they do not necessarily have to be ongoing. What stops a TPE or M/s relationship from abuse is that both parties must always be free to step away (even if such a choice is made difficult by being final), and that the discussions and agreements have taken place at some point. How often such discussions take place is down to the individual relationship - I suspect that All4Love would rather not have to think about each individual change or decision at all once the great decision to relinquish autonomy has been made. For others such as Honey, it seems that mutual agreement is an ongoing process, and that a prior agreement does not necessarily imply subsequent agreement. Both are fine, of course.

But given the range of opinions here, it does make me think that the old fashioned D/s ideal of a contract, though often derided and sometimes justifiably, makes sense in terms of making expectations and roles very clear indeed.

Goodness me, what a ramble. I am sorry.

that's what i meant

*curtseys*

 

[All_4_Love]

Goodness me, what a ramble. I am sorry.

Thank you for the ramble, Des. I enjoyed every word, even the few I had to look up.

 

[elli1]

you know you want some *smugface*

i'm not even denying it
but i know i'm not your type

 

[MSH2]

i'm not even denying it
but i know i'm not your type

Oh? and just what is my type?

 

[elli1]

Oh? and just what is my type?

no idea. i was shocked at that info, too

 

[MSH2]

no idea. i was shocked at that info, too

ahhhhhhhhhh, so a lack of evidence then

 

[elli1]

ahhhhhhhhhh, so a lack of evidence then

well, and then there's the sausage thing

 

[MSH2]

well, and then there's the sausage thing

Yes, in a bun with ketchup

 

[DesEsseintes]

If you too need a room, Elli has a whole suite at the top of her ivory tower, provided you can make it past the Snow Queen guarding the entrance.

(That's not a euphemism, by the way.)

 

[elli1]

Yes, in a bun with ketchup

ketchup?

 

[elli1]

If you too need a room, Elli has a whole suite at the top of her ivory tower, provided you can make it past the Snow Queen guarding the entrance.

(That's not a euphemism, by the way.)

sorry
*pokes Des* don't be like that

 

[DesEsseintes]

I just realized I mis-spelt 'two' as 'too'. I hate that error in others and am disgusted with myself. Now if I were duranman I'd immediately pretend that I had meant it and invent a rationalisation - but I didn't mean it. It was a stupid cock up.

In this mood of contrition, therefore - Elli1, I solemnly swear not to be like that any more.

But if you poke me again I will skin you and stitch your epidermis on backwards.

With a blunt knife.

 

[elli1]

But if you poke me again I will skin you and stitch your epidermis on backwards.

With a blunt knife.

*puts up hands in defeat and walks away*

 

[Callmetim]

I've read each post. Des provided the vocabulary for what was needed in the context of the discussion and, as always, fared far better than I would. We all have opinions, beliefs, preconceived notions within those words and labels, each one letting loose a flood of emotions, ideologies and convictions. It is each of these notions that make us uniquely us, none of which are invalid. We can agree, disagree, discuss, but who each of us is at our core, what our desires are and how we perceive ourselves in the context of a very subjective topic are never wrong.

When I approach the subject of control with someone, I do not focus on the labels and results of our thinking and beliefs. Every relationship that explores control in any form boils down to four things. Communication, trust, consent and exploration.

Communication: Here is who I am. Here is who you are. Pardon the meme, but will we blend?

Trust: We make ourselves completely vulnerable, all our strengths and weaknesses are on the table, left for the other person to either crush and judge or embrace and build up. Do we trust one another?

Consent: We are going to do things that a court of law might say are inappropriate. You might have fantasies that some say are illegal. You may be wanting to hinge on my word and let me totally form you. Are you okay with this?

Exploration: I'd like to try this, let's go here ... oops! Wrong turn. How about this? *fireworks* Okay, let's do that again. I've never tried this either, but let's give it a shot. Turns out we like it. Where do we go from here?

It is not shades of grey we must think of, but every spectrum of the rainbow that is out there. What matters is what works for you, in your relationship, staying true to who you are knowing it may change as you continue to step cautiously into, jump in head first and penetrate that which the two of you will make uniquely yours ...

 

[Aquagal]

Totally innocent, albeit serious question.

What happens to that relationship when your sub is just plain naughty and disobedient. I get there would be just consequences, but is that a turn off, the disobedience, or a turn on, the sexual punishment?

Maybe she is not a sub after all, to test those boundaries. How does that work?

 

[DesEsseintes]

Totally innocent, albeit serious question.

What happens to that relationship when your sub is just plain naughty and disobedient. I get there would be just consequences, but is that a turn off, the disobedience, or a turn on, the sexual punishment?

Maybe she is not a sub after all, to test those boundaries. How does that work?

Callmetim will be able to answer this more poetically, but for my two penn'orth:

Of course s/he is still a sub. S/he may be simply testing boundaries which is a necessary human instinct - how else do we learn? S/he may be doing it to provoke a reaction. If s/he does this continuously and deliberately s/he may identify as a brat, which is a kink which appeals to some and which has been discussed elsewhere.

I suppose if it kept happening I would ask what it was that was driving the behaviour. If it's attention I'd look to provide it in other ways; if it's punishment I would need to find a punishment that they really find uncomfortable so as to reduce the need for them to do this. (All that presupposes, of course, that I don't enjoy a brattish sub, which many do: in such cases the 'problem' becomes an enjoyable kink.) In exceptional circumstances it could be a catalyst in ending the relationship, but it would only be an indicator of more profound problems and not a serious problem in itself.

 

[Aquagal]

Callmetim will be able to answer this more poetically, but for my two penn'orth:

Of course s/he is still a sub. S/he may be simply testing boundaries which is a necessary human instinct - how else do we learn? S/he may be doing it to provoke a reaction. If s/he does this continuously and deliberately s/he may identify as a brat, which is a kink which appeals to some and which has been discussed elsewhere.

I suppose if it kept happening I would ask what it was that was driving the behaviour. If it's attention I'd look to provide it in other ways; if it's punishment I would need to find a punishment that they really find uncomfortable so as to reduce the need for them to do this. (All that presupposes, of course, that I don't enjoy a brattish sub, which many do: in such cases the 'problem' becomes an enjoyable kink.) In exceptional circumstances it could be a catalyst in ending the relationship, but it would only be an indicator of more profound problems and not a serious problem in itself.

Thank you for clarifying that along with Tim's upcoming response.

So, the punishment. It's uncomfortable. According to whom? Like really this hurts and not in a pleasure pain kind of way or how does that work?

 

[elli1]

Thank you for clarifying that along with Tim's upcoming response.

So, the punishment. It's uncomfortable. According to whom? Like really this hurts and not in a pleasure pain kind of way or how does that work?

punishment should be something the sub really doesn't enjoy and/or or that will make them think about what they did wrong. but nothing that is a hard limit.

 

[Aquagal]

Doesn't enjoy, as in uncomfortable enough to make them cry?

Excuse my naïveté.

 

[MSH2]

Doesn't enjoy, as in uncomfortable enough to make them cry?

Excuse my naïveté.

Different offences should have different punishments. More severe offences............... more severe punishments

 

[DesEsseintes]

Someone on the BDSM forum coined the brilliant phrase 'funishment', as opposed to punishment. I think that's a very helpful conceptual difference. Nothing wrong with a funishment, which might take many forms and be enjoyable for both partners. But a punishment should emphatically not be enjoyable. It should be a learning experience for the sub, to make him/her understand that misbehaviour will not be rewarded.

I could also quote the old joke:

Masochist - Beat me to within an inch of my life!

Sadist - No.

I'm aware that I am writing from a lifestyle, full time D/s if not M/s perspective. Those who play, or who would describe themselves as top/bottom, will see this differently. But I see it as my role, among others, to teach. We do not do a child any favours, as a parent, if a punishment is too weak, because it will offer no disincentive. The same rule applies to D/s, in my view. A good sub will want to learn and grow.

That being said, serious does not have to equal physical. My preferred punishments, and in my experience the most effective, are psychological - lack of interaction, emotional withdrawal - all are utterly devastating in the right context, and in fact have to be managed carefully so as not to cause longer term psychological damage.

 

[GiggLeGasm]

I think we tend to be confused about discipline.
It isn't a physical assault as much as it is a process.
When you have a goal and you let yourself down, the disappointment can often be it's own punishment because you recognize that you have not met your own goal.

 

[MSH2]

I think we tend to be confused about discipline.
It isn't a physical assault as much as it is a process.
When you have a goal and you let yourself down, the disappointment can often be it's own punishment because you recognize that you have not met your own goal.

A smacked bottom fades after a while. That sinking feeling when you know you've let them down and that look is pure disappointment? that lingers

 

[DesEsseintes]

I think we tend to be confused about discipline.
It isn't a physical assault as much as it is a process.
When you have a goal and you let yourself down, the disappointment can often be it's own punishment because you recognize that you have not met your own goal.

That is very profound, madam, and gets to the heart of things. It goes back to the difference between external and internal motivation. Once one has forged a dynamic where both parties are internally motivated to improve themselves and the relationship - ah, now that is bliss indeed. It takes time and skill and patience, but it is absolutely worth it. I have sometimes needed no punishment other than a gentle Socratic dialogue. The 'punishment' then emerges from the sub him/herself. No externalities needed. And that's the best kind of learning, of course.

 

[lexieredefined]

Doesn't enjoy, as in uncomfortable enough to make them cry?

Excuse my naïveté.

So I've been reading this thread, but haven't felt the need to jump in until now.

In a D/s relationship punishment is used to enforce boundaries and rules. These are discussed beforehand and agreed to. Punishments should never be a hard limit.

I personally enjoy spankings. However when a spanking is being used as punishment, it is a completely different feeling. I know the intent behind it is different. It's more a mental thing than the fact that I'm being spanked.

When I'm punished, I know it's because I've let my Dom down. As a sub, that is some thing I try my best not to do. The punishment serves as a course correction.

Some Doms have different methods of punishment. It really depends on what is worked out between the Dom and sub. I personally would be rather upset if a Dom punished me to the point of tears however some couples want that. It is completely up to the Dom and sub.

Hope this helps!