Reconciling religion and BDSM

[lost]

I’m not wanting to ask if is anything is morally wrong. I know there is a thread discussing that to some extent.

What I would like to know is how people have reconciled their religion with their lifestyle. I do know that ultimately I need to do this myself, but I thought others experiences might be helpful. I would be especially interested in those who have come from a conservative background.

BTW- I did do a search on the web for this and it looks like two of the sites have been removed and the other didn't work properly. Maybe that should tell me something.

Becky

 

[luvsubbbbb]

I’m not wanting to ask if is anything is morally wrong. I know there is a thread discussing that to some extent.

What I would like to know is how people have reconciled their religion with their lifestyle. I do know that ultimately I need to do this myself, but I thought others experiences might be helpful. I would be especially interested in those who have come from a conservative background.

BTW- I did do a search on the web for this and it looks like two of the sites have been removed and the other didn't work properly. Maybe that should tell me something.

Becky

i come from a conservative religious background myself.......

without getting into a theological discussion about the divinity of the laws pertaining to religion:

i have reconciled my religious beliefs with my BDSM lifestyle by applying to my religious practice the way i approach BDSM.........

my feeling is that you pick and choose what you like about it and what you don't.........it does NOT have to be an all or nothing thing because *they* say it has to be so.......

i find i can reject what i dont like about it (patriarchy, narrowmindedness and intolerance) and just embrace what i admire about it (builds character and provides a guide/discipline)

i hope you find my words helpful........

 

[~Dream~]

Hi there again lost..

great thread and what the heck ,I'll be a guinea pig...
In my faith Islam,women are equal to men in all things and will receive equal reward as well as equal punishment.. Islam itself ,means "submission to the will of Allah(God).. My faith has NOT been compromised by my lifestyle,the 1 and only time I would HAVE to disobey my Master would be if He refused to let me perform 1 of my 5 daily prayers.. Submission to God ,comes first,always.
I feel that choosing my lifestyle as it may be, is just another way for me to feel the freedom of having and expressing the "free will" that Allah gave to me.. even Prophet Mohammed(peace be upon Him) had many wives ,back then and even today ,there are valid reasons for this. thank -you for your question tho very thought-provoking ,, maybe add more later..

 

[Daddyslilpet]

lost,

My religious background is Southern Baptist. One of the most conservative or possibly just narrow minded, that I know of.

For me being submissive to my husband isn't something that goes against my religious beliefs. That is to say just the act of submission.

Now, the kinky stuff....I'm still working that out honestly. I don't feel guilty for anything that I enjoy. But....and we all knew that was coming....I am married to my Dom. The main stigma in my religion is sex outside of marriage. Master and I do not include others in our relationship in a sexual manner, so what we do is just between a husband and wife.

Do I advertise to my church what we do? OMG no way!! Southern Baptist's are very closed minded people, I know because I grew up in a family steeped in this religion.

So, how have I sorted it out? I'm basically still working on that one.

btw, Master is agnostic... doesn't believe in organised religion, but will not stop me from going to church when I want.

Hope that is close to what you were looking for. If you have questions or need clarification on my thoughts here, please ask me.... I'll answer as best I can.

~smiles~
dixi

 

[A Desert Rose]

I'm a cafeteria Catholic

Like luvsubbb, I pick and choose what works for me in my life. Catholics live by the "most-things-in-moderation-is-okay" creed and that's just alrighty with me.

I will not deny that some things are difficult for me to justify or reconcile in my mind regarding the church's positions, however my sex life is not one of them.

Rose

 

[luvsubbbbb]

Re: I'm a cafeteria Catholic

Like luvsubbb, I pick and choose what works for me in my life. Catholics live by the "most-things-in-moderation-is-okay" creed and that's just alrighty with me.

I will not deny that some things are difficult for me to justify or reconcile in my mind regarding the church's positions, however my sex life is not one of them.

Rose

hhmmmm...good to hear, Rose.......glad to hear that there are no *abominations* in your sex life!

 

[lovetoread]

My religious background is Southern Baptist. One of the most conservative or possibly just narrow minded, that I know of.

You must live where I did.

Southern baptists are not open minded people.

I can remember when I was a little girl hearing the sunday sermon be about a wife submitting to the husband.

Who knew that would be true for me?

Deep down,I have made my peace. Thats all that matters to me.

 

[lost]

Thank you,
I went outside to play w/ my son and was suprised at the responces.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Reconciling religion and BDSM

i come from a conservative religious background myself.......

without getting into a theological discussion about the divinity of the laws pertaining to religion:

i have reconciled my religious beliefs with my BDSM lifestyle by applying to my religious practice the way i approach BDSM.........

my feeling is that you pick and choose what you like about it and what you don't.........it does NOT have to be an all or nothing thing because *they* say it has to be so.......

i find i can reject what i dont like about it (patriarchy, narrowmindedness and intolerance) and just embrace what i admire about it (builds character and provides a guide/discipline)

i hope you find my words helpful........

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

 

[Guest]

Re: Hi there again lost..

<snip> My faith has NOT been compromised by my lifestyle,the 1 and only time I would HAVE to disobey my Master would be if He refused to let me perform 1 of my 5 daily prayers.. Submission to God ,comes first,always. <snip>

Wonderful point! Thank you. I would love to hear more, if you would like to share.

 

[lost]

the 2 before this are also from me im not sure why it didn't keep me in.

lost,

My religious background is Southern Baptist. One of the most conservative or possibly just narrow minded, that I know of.

For me being submissive to my husband isn't something that goes against my religious beliefs. That is to say just the act of submission.

Now, the kinky stuff....I'm still working that out honestly. I don't feel guilty for anything that I enjoy. But....and we all knew that was coming....I am married to my Dom. The main stigma in my religion is sex outside of marriage. Master and I do not include others in our relationship in a sexual manner, so what we do is just between a husband and wife.

Do I advertise to my church what we do? OMG no way!! Southern Baptist's are very closed minded people, I know because I grew up in a family steeped in this religion.

So, how have I sorted it out? I'm basically still working on that one.

btw, Master is agnostic... doesn't believe in organised religion, but will not stop me from going to church when I want.

Hope that is close to what you were looking for. If you have questions or need clarification on my thoughts here, please ask me.... I'll answer as best I can.

~smiles~
dixi

Thank you. I at one time was southern bapitist and am still amazed that you can't even dance. (maybe its just the one around here) The sex outside of marraige is one of the major things I am dealing with. However I came out of a very bad one and am not intrested in getting married again. Maybe I should go read that chastity belt thread again.

 

[lost]

Re: I'm a cafeteria Catholic

Like luvsubbb, I pick and choose what works for me in my life. Catholics live by the "most-things-in-moderation-is-okay" creed and that's just alrighty with me.

I will not deny that some things are difficult for me to justify or reconcile in my mind regarding the church's positions, however my sex life is not one of them.

Rose

Thank you. I feel better that I'm not the only person who is stuggling with this.

 

[lost]

<snip>
Deep down,I have made my peace. Thats all that matters to me.

I'm happy that you have.

 

[lost]

*bump*

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: I'm a cafeteria Catholic

Thank you. I feel better that I'm not the only person who is stuggling with this.

There is no point in struggling with it, if we are talking about the same thing. Organized religion's postions on things that are not consistant with your (or my) thinking are positions created by man. Most of us will not quibble with the validity of the 10 commandments, but where is it written that thou shalt not use birth control?

Personally, I don't believe that we would be made with these fields of pleasure in us if they weren't a good thing to explore them.

Am I being clear? I hope so.


Rose

 

[quietwillow]

I realized a long time ago that toxicity exists in every place on earth... especially churches. When I began exploring my submissive side I knew that the "church" would not approve.
I would ask God to show me the way and I would listen and very carefully observe all that went on in the church versus all that I saw submission to be for me.

It was this same time that the pastor got fired for ordering a porno flick through his credit card for the church. He claimed he was framed and lots of folks took his side. His actions and the actions of those in the church split the church and he went off to start a new church which his followers went also.

Lots of feelings were hurt many angry words were spoken and my heart hurt for God because deep inside I knew that is not what being spiritual is about.

In the meantime, I had begun a LDR D/s relationship that flourished and grew and helped me accept and not be afraid of who I was on the inside... a submissive woman.

I feel this was the way God helped me reconcile that I am a great person being submissive and it no longer bothers me at all.

For me being submissive is who I am. If God made me that way who am I to argue?

quiet

 

[RisiaSkye]

You're far from the only one struggling with this. Because I've rambled at length about this before, I'll not attempt to retype all my various brain-spewage on the subject. The following is cut&paste from an early thread started by monster666 called Sex, Bondage & Religion:

Okay, so when we die, do we get into heaven?

Does god listen to our prayers the same as the prayers of the less-deviant variety?

If you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, don't you also believe that He hears all prayers?

Personally, I think organized religion is an unacceptable kind of enslavement to accept in my own life, though I don't mean to imply any negative judgement about anyone else's beliefs.
It just seems to me than when it comes to religious sects, while the ideas may be good ones, the power structure which forms around it corrupts both the people and the ideas. There's a huge difference between having faith and having religion.

And I don't believe for one second that any force powerful enough to create and guide all of life and the wonders of the universe(s?) is so petty as to condemn the creation for seeking love and mutual satisfaction.

Bondage is cool in a BDSM context. What other kinds of bondages do we accept?

Are religious paradigms different forms of bondage?

Absolutely, and they're a kind of bondage that we're often placed into without our consent--or even our full awareness. Like most people in the U.S., I was raised from early childhood in a Judeo-Christian church model. The values and basic assumptions about life that I learned were all taught through that religious filter, even though I didn't yet have a big enough view of the world to know that there were other views of life and deity available.

So, I was conditioned into religion before I had a choice, and I had to later *choose* to sift through that conditioning, deciding which parts to keep and which parts to eliminate. Even those parts (like the idea that homosexuality is somehow "wrong") that I find ridiculous and contradictory to my own feelings of faith and divinity don't cease to exist--I have to consciously choose not to let them dictate who I am and what I feel.

Are vanilla morals different forms of bondage?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, as "morals" mean many different things to different people.

I *do* think, however, that I'm a very moral person. My moral code may not be the absolute same as that of the majority, but that doesn't make it any less (or more) valid. And only a more informed observer, like the Divine, has a right to pass judgement on whether that morality is the "right" or "wrong" one.

How do we balance traditional ethical values with the various components of BDSM, which seem to fly in the face of those values?

It depends how we define "traditional" and "ethical."

For purposes of conversation, I use the Aristotelian distinction between ethics and morals: Ethics are codes of conduct; morals are absolute judgements about "right" and "wrong." Which do you really mean here?

Actually, in terms of religion, the difference between ethics and morality is really a semantic issue in any case; for pretty much every possible set of ethical and/or moral values one can name, there is a tradition of long-standing somewhere in the world which ascribes to it. We are far more diverse in our values than the U.S.'s emphasis on Christianity would suggest.

But...assuming that by "traditional ethical values" you mean "the most popular cultural values of U.S. Christians," I don't think there's necessarily any contradiction between the two. It's all a matter of how one chooses to focus their attention, which parts of the theological framework we keep in view.

Service of another is praised in the Christian context; even Mary Magdalene finds salvation in the love and service of her benevolent "leader," Jesus. Skillful, just, and loving guidance (read: Dominance) of others is also valued in this context; King Solomon is exemplified in the Bible for his ability to weild power with authority and fairness to the benefit of all. (And, he had hundreds of wives and concubines, which doesn't seem to have prevented him from being seen as a paragon of virtue.)

And, in the Bible, deviance is not the mark of damnation. The martyrdom of the deviant is what marked the Romans, Philistines, and Babylonians as against God at different points in the Book. Even the Old Testament God of hellfire didn't punish deviance with nearly the severity He reserved for doubt and dishonesty; His worst judgements befell those who disobeyed his clear and direct order to stay humble before the divine. The loss of Eden because of eating from the Tree of Knowledge isn't about sex. Adam and Eve invented "sin" by attempting to know the face of God--by trying to Know more than humans are capable of understanding. The "knowledge" they sought and were punished for wasn't sex, it was usurping the Divine's judgement, thereby overreaching the capacities of humans and creating guilt, a mistake we continue to create; ergo, religious dogma posturing as Divinely dictated morality.

The Bible is a document about holding reverent and submitting to a greater force, an unknowable power/knowledge/understanding. The text was written by men and thus reflects the political and social desires of men as much as their faith, but when viewed as an abstraction, there is nothing inherently against its teachings about Dommes or msubs--even though the text itself emphasizes female submission to male power.

I see nothing in BDSM which is necessarily at odds with the basic premise and values of Christianity, and much which is very much in the same spirit.

Personally, I practice a version of Wicca. I do so because it is private and individual in nature, it emphasizes introspection and communication as ways to improve one's spirit and connection to divinity, and avoids convoluted and/or rigid dogma. Where the Bible spends a lot of time laying down laws and segregating men from women (and drawing divisions between *lots* of groups), I choose to see all of life and its energies as a delicate balance in which all are necessary and serve purposes.

As I don't believe us capable of apprehending (in any sense) the "face of God," I find it laughable that we would presume to lay down the law as if (insert sect here) has the one-and-only true word. Such mythology is a fiction made to appease the ego and curiosity of humans; I don't feel for one second that God (in whatever form that takes) has any need or desire to get involved in the kind of nonsense that makes for sectarianism and Holy war. Why, if you can make a galazy, would you choose to make arbitrary rules? It makes no sense; the divine mystery doesn't make rules, it makes life. In the face of our own vast ignorance and incompetence at being divine, we make rules--they give us something distracting to do, a way to live that seems constructive and mollifies our fears about death, and a way to avoid acknowledging all we cannot know, do, or be.

So, I choose to live my life in recognition of my own vast ignorance of and reverence for the divine spark which generates life. I try to be a creator rather than a destroyer, a friend rather than an exploiter, and a person of faith and love rather than one of rules and religion. I do not pretend to be right in this; I just acknowledge it as an effort to live in celebration of life rather than in fear of it.

 

[Red Menace]

I find BDSM to go against most of what I believe to be true about God and my religion. But then, I find a lot of what I do be at odds with that. So I try not to think about it too much and live my life the way I want to, consequences be damned.

 

[Verypowerful]

<snip>

As I don't believe us capable of apprehending (in any sense) the "face of God," I find it laughable that we would presume to lay down the law as if (insert sect here) has the one-and-only true word. Such mythology is a fiction made to appease the ego and curiosity of humans; I don't feel for one second that God (in whatever form that takes) has any need or desire to get involved in the kind of nonsense that makes for sectarianism and Holy war. Why, if you can make a galazy, would you choose to make arbitrary rules? It makes no sense; the divine mystery doesn't make rules, it makes life. In the face of our own vast ignorance and incompetence at being divine, we make rules--they give us something distracting to do, a way to live that seems constructive and mollifies our fears about death, and a way to avoid acknowledging all we cannot know, do, or be.

So, I choose to live my life in recognition of my own vast ignorance of and reverence for the divine spark which generates life. I try to be a creator rather than a destroyer, a friend rather than an exploiter, and a person of faith and love rather than one of rules and religion. I do not pretend to be right in this; I just acknowledge it as an effort to live in celebration of life rather than in fear of it.

I very much think the same way and would like to add the following; where I live protestantism is the most common religion.
This is the way that I was raised and what has influenced societal rules. Personally I have chosen to live and let live, show respect unto others and expect it in return. Looking at different religions as being "created" for guidance for us ignorant humans I do not see how it would condemn happiness and harmony ( as long as it doesn't hurt others etc. etc.). D/s to me is for example the ultimate way to live respectfully, honestly and being true to oneself.

VP

 

[lost]

Thank you again for your answers.
Desert Rose- I'm sorry I didn't understand your post the first time.

 

[lost]

I have been struggling w my religion for a few years-
Personal info- i left my husband3 years ago after having been abused about every way imaginable. His fav thing to do was to wake me in the middle of the night and rape me- i still have nightmares. i finally left him because he started in on the baby. i tell you this because after i left i met with my parents "pastor" who told me it was my fault. i had been making to much eye contact or not getting the laundry done exactly right blah, blah, blah- I can't tell you what a crushing experience this was. Everything i had believed as long as i could remember was thrown back in my face. That is when i quit organized religion and you aren't likely to see me back.
i guess im at the point where i feel like why would i have these feelings if it was wrong?
I also live where Protestantism is rampant- in the middle of the Middle West. Anything off normal is is thought as sinful no matter what it is.

 

[Pure]

Religious connection of ‘bdsm’ concepts.

One has to look beyond specific rules to essential teachings,
(though I see no rule, OT or NT against a committed couple's engaging in whipping as as erotic stimulant.)

Just as our Islamic friend pointed out for Islam, submission to God is certainly a theme also in Judaism and Christianity (noted briefly by RS). God as a figure of great or unlimited power is to be submitted to, and this is for the good of the subject. When the subject ‘strays’, there are appropriate disciplinary measures: As in Proverbs, 3:11:

“My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, neither be weary of his correction. For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth, even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.”
(KJV and subsequent)

Note that it’s not merely God’s prerogative, rather God to his people are as (here) earthly father to son. (see Prov 13:24).

It’s important to note that this theme is hardly absent from the NT, esp. in view of Jesus’ submission to God’s penalty.

More specifically, the author of Hebrews seems to have some of the above passages in mind when he says, “For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth and scourgeth every son he receiveth.”(12:6).

“Furthermore we have had father of our flesh which corrected us and we gave them reverence; shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
For they verily for a few days chasten us after their own pleasure, but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous. Nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of the righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.” (9-11)

Without going on too long, it’s worth mentioning the theme of surrender to a God who has apparently forsaken. The famous Psalm 22, quoted by Jesus, reads, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me. Why are thou so far from helping me…Oh my God, I cry in the daytime but thou hearest not ….”

Clearly the idea is not (see Job) that submission will be ‘paid’. This, one might say, is the ‘classic’ s/m, not the currently popular ‘self realization’ s/m that entrusts the Master with providing for the stupendous orgasms and personal fulfillment of the sub.

There is of course a whole religious literature on submission, for example in John’s writing of the ‘dark night of the soul’. Again, the idea being that service is often ‘in the dark’ without immediate or apparent reward.

 

[lost]

thank you pure,
I think you helped me realize what the specific problem is. im not sure bdsm is my real problem. i think it sex outside marriage. man i can't tell you how much better i feel to have it narrowed down. so im going to have to reconcile this my self, because i won't get remarried

 

[Guest]

My 2 cents

I have not posted here often. I suppose i am something of a voyeure since I read without comment in most cases. However on the subject of religion I have something to say.

It seems to me that the conflicts between religion and BDSM are more in the minds of the people than in the source of their worship, the Bible. For example, Paul refers to himself constantly as a slave to Christ. If you read David's psalms he talks often about the joy of obedience, and the pain of being ignored. Indeed Jesus famous words "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" as he was dying on the cross, are the first verse of Psalm 22. In fact God himself calls him "My servant David" 2 Sam 3:18 and elsewhere.

Then you take the central figure of the whole Bible, Jesus. "Who, being of the very form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but made himself of no reputation and took upon himself the form of a servant ... he humbled himself and became obedient unto death." Phil 2:6-8. In his words "He who has my commandments and obeys them — he it is who loves me." John 14:21. The entire imagery of the Bible is one of Master and servant. In the New Testament, servant often becomes slave. "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me." Gal 2:20. Can it get any clearer.I could go on. The point is that willing service is a very religious thing. Discipline also. "I rebuke and discipline as many as I love." Rev 3:18

The problem as I see it, is that sexuality and religion are uncomfortable neighbors. Both draw on the deepest emotions and drives we possess. Yet corruption of the sexual drive is the bane of every religion. Paul could lead a single celibate life, and even wish that others were like him. Yet he recognized that sexual needs were real and pressing, so he told his followers to marry rather than be consumed by lust.

There is a need in the human animal to be wanted and needed, to serve and be appreciated for the service. The lifestyle formalizes this need and also services the primal physical desires. Just as Art's Dream serves Art even in his absense, so the faithful serve God until they come into his presence. IMHO there are some very deeply religious needs that are satisfied trought the lifestyle.

The established church has the problems of its successes. There are many who join in order to be seen, not to truly participate. There is a line between religion and faith. Even amoung the faithful, each person has doubts. Doubts and the fear they engender are a cause of much conflict. It is bad enough that some churcheswill baptize without emmersion. Wars have been fought over this point. How much worse if someone's service involves things one personally would not participate in.

I recall an article many years ago. A group of Christians had reached the conclusion that the husband was the Master of the house. this meant that the wife had to get permission to do anything, even speak. The system worked. Wives accepted the authority of their husband and were relieved of a great deal of stress as a result. Husbands in turn were relieved of the constant strggle of justifying every decision to the wife. It made it easier to listen to the wife's ideas when it was not an agument. None the less the article was written in a kind of horror, that someone could so corrupt scripture. In short the Author could, or would, not acknowledge the freeing nature of submission.

I ramble. Suffice to say that there is much more in support of the lifestyle in scripture than in the practices of those who claim to follow it.

J

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: My 2 cents

The problem as I see it, is that sexuality and religion are uncomfortable neighbors. Both draw on the deepest emotions and drives we possess. J

You from Kansas J?

I agree that organized religion is in conflict often with sexuality. I also believe as I stated before, that we would not be blessed with those areas of sexual pleasure if we were not meant to explore them.

Very thought provoking post, J. Thank you.

Rose