p_p_man
The 'Euro' European
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2001
- Posts
- 24,253
I just had to write this thread.
I was getting irritated with each brownie point the other was trying to score. This thread was going to be a post on that thread but I want it to get read so here we go..
One of the reasons why America has no effective Socialialism is because people like Redwave and Oliver Clozoff spend too much of their time sitting around cups of coffee trying to outdo each other in their knowledge of the Socialist Movement.
Yes it has a history and a proud one at that, but not a history to be used as a weapon between two vociferous warring factions who enjoy the talk more than they enjoy the deed.
What does it matter whether Trotsky was anti-Stalin and what does it matter that Oliver Clozoff likes to try out new knowledge he's learnt from some new source. Both facts won't change the situation.
The only true Socialist is one who can put up or shut up. One who can see an injustice, social or otherwise, stand up, alone if need be, and shout the fucking place down to do what he can to right that injustice.
Not for him to scuttle to the nearest Web Site or the closest library and look up facts that he can use in a debate. Knowledge inspires but it rarely solves (in the Socialist sense anyhow).
The UK had it's fill of the chattering socialists from the end of Atlee's Government (the Labour one that voted Churchill out of power at the end of WWII) right up to Tony Blair. There were Socialist Governments in between but the movement slowly destroyed itself by trying to put into practice what they had been coffee bar debating for years. It didn't work.
Probably one of the most inept Labour Prime Ministers we had was Michael Foot, a dyed-in-the-wool Socialist of the old school. His Socialist pedigree was superb, his knowledge of the movement probably unparalled but once away from the theory and into the world of practical application he was the man who eventually became known as the person who made Labour unelectable. He wasn't the only one, but he was the worst.
The Labour Party became a joke and people in the UK seriously thought it would never recover. But then along came a leader called Neil Kinnock who started the transformation and finally Tony Blair.
Neil Kinnock, now one of the European Commissioners was more of an old style Socialist than Tony Blair, but his Socialism was tempered with a practical State education which took him out of reach of the "intellectuals" and Tony Blair was never a part of the "chattering classes" in the first place. He was too busy building a political career.
From what I hear, see and read America has more true Socialist thinkers than the establishment would like the public to believe. They may not be all of the same distance to the left but each time I see a demonstration on TV by a group of people who feel strongly enough to make their protest loud and public, I see a Socialist.
I can't think of one Right wing Government that gained power through popular unrest, but I can think of plenty of Left wing ones.
So put away your books and man the barricades!
Your credibility ratings will soar...
I was getting irritated with each brownie point the other was trying to score. This thread was going to be a post on that thread but I want it to get read so here we go..
One of the reasons why America has no effective Socialialism is because people like Redwave and Oliver Clozoff spend too much of their time sitting around cups of coffee trying to outdo each other in their knowledge of the Socialist Movement.
Yes it has a history and a proud one at that, but not a history to be used as a weapon between two vociferous warring factions who enjoy the talk more than they enjoy the deed.
What does it matter whether Trotsky was anti-Stalin and what does it matter that Oliver Clozoff likes to try out new knowledge he's learnt from some new source. Both facts won't change the situation.
The only true Socialist is one who can put up or shut up. One who can see an injustice, social or otherwise, stand up, alone if need be, and shout the fucking place down to do what he can to right that injustice.
Not for him to scuttle to the nearest Web Site or the closest library and look up facts that he can use in a debate. Knowledge inspires but it rarely solves (in the Socialist sense anyhow).
The UK had it's fill of the chattering socialists from the end of Atlee's Government (the Labour one that voted Churchill out of power at the end of WWII) right up to Tony Blair. There were Socialist Governments in between but the movement slowly destroyed itself by trying to put into practice what they had been coffee bar debating for years. It didn't work.
Probably one of the most inept Labour Prime Ministers we had was Michael Foot, a dyed-in-the-wool Socialist of the old school. His Socialist pedigree was superb, his knowledge of the movement probably unparalled but once away from the theory and into the world of practical application he was the man who eventually became known as the person who made Labour unelectable. He wasn't the only one, but he was the worst.
The Labour Party became a joke and people in the UK seriously thought it would never recover. But then along came a leader called Neil Kinnock who started the transformation and finally Tony Blair.
Neil Kinnock, now one of the European Commissioners was more of an old style Socialist than Tony Blair, but his Socialism was tempered with a practical State education which took him out of reach of the "intellectuals" and Tony Blair was never a part of the "chattering classes" in the first place. He was too busy building a political career.
From what I hear, see and read America has more true Socialist thinkers than the establishment would like the public to believe. They may not be all of the same distance to the left but each time I see a demonstration on TV by a group of people who feel strongly enough to make their protest loud and public, I see a Socialist.
I can't think of one Right wing Government that gained power through popular unrest, but I can think of plenty of Left wing ones.
So put away your books and man the barricades!
Your credibility ratings will soar...
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