Rape: the woman's fault?

[PrettyPosie]

When it comes to rape we keep hearing it repeated that if a woman is raped it's not her fault. But then you've got people throwing in wrenches to muddy the waters about the issue: if she wears provocative clothing, if she's drunk, etc. that translates to her somehow "asking for it".

What if the woman initiates sexual contact and then says "No"? I was having a discussion about this with someone earlier and apparently if she starts it, a woman is not allowed to change her mind.

 

[D_K_Moon]

When it comes to rape we keep hearing it repeated that if a woman is raped it's not her fault. But then you've got people throwing in wrenches to muddy the waters about the issue: if she wears provocative clothing, if she's drunk, etc. that translates to her somehow "asking for it".

What if the woman initiates sexual contact and then says "No"? I was having a discussion about this with someone earlier and apparently if she starts it, a woman is not allowed to change her mind.

No means no. Simple as that.

 

[R. Richard]

What if the woman initiates sexual contact and then says "No"? I was having a discussion about this with someone earlier and apparently if she starts it, a woman is not allowed to change her mind.

A year or so back, a girl in California was in the middle of a fuck session when she changed her mind. The guy paid her no attention. Afterwards, the guy was arrested and convicted on rape charges.

 

[wicked woman]

When it comes to rape we keep hearing it repeated that if a woman is raped it's not her fault. But then you've got people throwing in wrenches to muddy the waters about the issue: if she wears provocative clothing, if she's drunk, etc. that translates to her somehow "asking for it".

What if the woman initiates sexual contact and then says "No"? I was having a discussion about this with someone earlier and apparently if she starts it, a woman is not allowed to change her mind.

I don't know who you've been talking to but I haven't heard this crap about the person being raped being at fault and asking for it because of those issues since the late 80s when I used to give public speaks as a volunteer for a sexual assault crisis centre. By the early 90s people (in the audiences) knew they were myths.


I once talked to a woman who'd been sexually assaulted by a man she'd met in a bar, who she'd accepted a ride home from. She kept saying it was her fault. She'd internalized what some of society thought. I told her it wasn't her fault. Yes she'd used poor judgement, but that didn't give him the right to rape her. Big difference.

uummm no...No means no regardless of when it's said. Regardless of who says it.


It's disturbing if decades after, people are once again believing this.

 

[mynameisben]

When it comes to rape we keep hearing it repeated that if a woman is raped it's not her fault. But then you've got people throwing in wrenches to muddy the waters about the issue: if she wears provocative clothing, if she's drunk, etc. that translates to her somehow "asking for it".

What if the woman initiates sexual contact and then says "No"? I was having a discussion about this with someone earlier and apparently if she starts it, a woman is not allowed to change her mind.

I think throwing wrenches into muddy waters is the worst thing you can do to them. They will rust over in no time at all! It's kinda like tool rape, when you get right down to it. Of course, most of the time they've got it coming. Especially if they are very pretty tools.

Seriously, though, rape is an act of violence. There is NEVER an excuse for it. Never. Circumstances do not entitle one to commit rape.

On the other hand, you can't be stupid for free. You really should know your partner well before you play games with their emotions (if ever). If you don't know who you are dealing with and you play with fire, you will eventually get burned. Yes, the rape may be entirely his fault. But that's little consolation if you are a rape victim. His fault won't make you un-raped.

 

[Dragonlipz]

Forcing anyone - male or female - to participate in sex acts is wrong....no if's and's or but's......if you're two knuckles deep and she decides 'no mas'; then it's no mas.....
It happened to me years back that a gal wanted to and then didn't.....she chased me for months afterward because I walked away from it and never gave her another chance to play games with me......
Her eyes might shine,
her teeth might grit,
my cock was one
she would not git.......

 

[PrettyPosie]

I don't know who you've been talking to but I haven't heard this crap about the person being raped being at fault and asking for it because of those issues since the late 80s when I used to give public speaks as a volunteer for a sexual assault crisis centre. By the early 90s people (in the audiences) knew they were myths.


I once talked to a woman who'd been sexually assaulted by a man she'd met in a bar, who she'd accepted a ride home from. She kept saying it was her fault. She'd internalized what some of society thought. I told her it wasn't her fault. Yes she'd used poor judgement, but that didn't give him the right to rape her. Big difference.

uummm no...No means no regardless of when it's said. Regardless of who says it.


It's disturbing if decades after, people are once again believing this.

Yes, that's what I thought too when they said that. I confronted them at first but after he said "If you said let's screw then you're screwed." I just didn't know how to respond without repeating what I'd already said. I was just completely blown away.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yes, that's what I thought too when they said that. I confronted them at first but after he said "If you said let's screw then you're screwed." I just didn't know how to respond without repeating what I'd already said. I was just completely blown away.

Try hitting him with a muddy wrench.

In a more perfect world, yeah-- a woman could be expected to hold to her word. But this world is far from perfect, and there are about three thousand reasons a woman might change her mind-- or have her mind changed for her-- after she first thought something was okay to do.

 

[PrettyPosie]

His fault won't make you un-raped.

That's not the point at all. Most if not all rape victims blame themselves for the rape at some point afterward and they get stuck on it. Assigning blame to the man isn't a fix all but putting the blame where it belongs can help the rape-victim heal and grow past it. Also it helps when prosecuting the bastard to know where we're drawing the line and to define it clearly.

Honestly, I don't see it as playing with emotions. To me, that sounds like you're trying to shift blame again. I'm sure not all women are innocent of the game but I can imagine a scenario where at some point she grows weary, or it doesn't feel the way it should or even grows some sense that she doesn't want to go that far with that guy and then decides to stop, a lot easier than I can imagine a scenario where she's thinking to herself "Alright, I'm gonna make out with Tom, get all hot and heavy, take our clothes off, blow him a little bit, lay down and spread my legs and then tell him I don't feel like it, just to fuck with his head! teehee!"

 

[kamuikamui]

A year or so back, a girl in California was in the middle of a fuck session when she changed her mind. The guy paid her no attention. Afterwards, the guy was arrested and convicted on rape charges.

you tell that to ted bundy.

 

[sdsioux]

If you leave your keys in your car with the door unlocked and someone steals it the police will say it was your fault that it was stolen. You tempted someone too much. Perhaps poor judgment was used but it was still wrong to steal the car. I think rape is in the same category. There could be a lot of temptation but in the end if one of the parties is not comfortable the other has to walk away. I could also see the police giving the man or woman a hard time by saying they asked for it. In my opinion they are as wrong as the rapist or the thief.

 

[mynameisben]

That's not the point at all. Most if not all rape victims blame themselves for the rape at some point afterward and they get stuck on it. Assigning blame to the man isn't a fix all but putting the blame where it belongs can help the rape-victim heal and grow past it. Also it helps when prosecuting the bastard to know where we're drawing the line and to define it clearly.

Honestly, I don't see it as playing with emotions. To me, that sounds like you're trying to shift blame again. I'm sure not all women are innocent of the game but I can imagine a scenario where at some point she grows weary, or it doesn't feel the way it should or even grows some sense that she doesn't want to go that far with that guy and then decides to stop, a lot easier than I can imagine a scenario where she's thinking to herself "Alright, I'm gonna make out with Tom, get all hot and heavy, take our clothes off, blow him a little bit, lay down and spread my legs and then tell him I don't feel like it, just to fuck with his head! teehee!"

I misread the intent of your post. Of course, you are allowed to change your mind at any time. You have to live with the consequences of changing your mind in intimate situations, but those consequences should NOT include getting raped. As I said before, no circumstance entitles one to commit rape.

I'm not trying to shift any blame.

 

[Liar]

Laws and morals are pretty clear. Rape is the rapist's fault. There's really no way around that. As a society, we demand that every person controls certain instincts.

Practical reality is always a murky bastard. And this is where many victims get stuck: on another definition of "fault". Because, however much we demand that every person controls certain instincts, we know every person won't.

So what do we do with that knowledge? When someone ignores it, and in hindsight, sees a cause and effect relation between her choice and the rape, it's a very natural reaction to adopt blame.

 

[SeaCat]

Here in Southern Florida we have signs up at the Bus Stops saying:

"Sex without consent under any circumstances is Rape."

This is followed by a phone number to the Rape Hotline.

I have made my views quite clear on this forum as well as on others about my feelings on Rape and it's suitable punishments even though I have been accused of being barbaric. (An accusation to which I readily agree.)

Cat

 

[Dvus_D]

It's certainly not the fault of the person who was raped. That being said, I do think that every individual has the obligation to make sure they are not in situations in which they don't want to be. It seems like a lot of people don't think about what could happen before they do something or go somewhere. I've been known to act before I think.

However, if someone is raped, they should not have guilt piled onto them. Even if they made a poor decision or ten. Even if they invited their attacker to participate in something that went further than they had originally intended. Even, in the odd case (and I really can't envision this happening), where you could look at the person attacked and state that they were completely at fault. It's the guilt that eats at people. They were a victim of an assault and need compassion and understanding. They need support.

I think I got off topic.

 

[fieryjen]

Yes, that's what I thought too when they said that. I confronted them at first but after he said "If you said let's screw then you're screwed." I just didn't know how to respond without repeating what I'd already said. I was just completely blown away.

Random thought that popped into my head as I was reading this:

By the same logic, a guy who agreed to sex couldn't back out if he discovered after giving consent that, say, the woman he's with had a penis. He'd be obliged to go through with it even if he's not into that sort of thing.

 

[Dvus_D]

Lol! Jen, that's a good way to look at it. I'll have to remember that one.

 

[Katyusha]

In a perfect world rape wouldn't exist. In a perfect world a man and woman would be able to clearly define lines before they get physical, and those lines would always be respected by both parties. And because of this, a person would know how far they could go, and would go no further without permission.

But this isn't a perfect world. People don't always know ahead of time what their boundaries are going to be, even though I wish they did. People don't always control themselves the way they should, even though I wish they would. People get stupid as all hell, even though I wish they didn't. But no matter what a rape victim does before the fact, once they say "no," once they express a desire to stop, it's over. The other person needs to stop even if it takes every last ounce of energy and self control they've got.

PrettyPosie, I don't think it's intentionally playing with people's emotions, but I can see why people feel that their feelings are being toyed with. After the first time my husband and I had sex, he told me that if I'd said "no" after a certain point (that point being after we started taking clothes off), he'd've dropped me like a hot potato. I was shocked and felt used and hurt...but when I asked him why he told me it was because girlfriend after girlfriend after girlfriend after girlfriend (and some more casual acquaintances) were repeatedly getting hot and heavy and half-naked or more with him, and letting him get just a tiny bit further occasionally and then wanting to back off for awhile, and he was sick and tired of being toyed with. He was sick to death of being teased and led on.

I can't say that I blame him for feeling that way. You get into it, no boundaries have been set, they've expressed no misgivings up to that point, and suddenly they're pulling away saying, "I don't think we should do this," or whatever. You're startled, probably embarrassed, and you don't know what it is but you're sure you've done something wrong. When that happens repeatedly, whether with the same person or different people, you start to feel like people don't care about your feelings. So to me, even though it's not likely premeditated, it's still playing games with someone's feelings.

 

[PrettyPosie]

Ah, yes, when you put it that way, I can understand it and I agree with that sentiment.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

If you leave your keys in your car with the door unlocked and someone steals it the police will say it was your fault that it was stolen. You tempted someone too much. Perhaps poor judgment was used but it was still wrong to steal the car. I think rape is in the same category. There could be a lot of temptation but in the end if one of the parties is not comfortable the other has to walk away. I could also see the police giving the man or woman a hard time by saying they asked for it. In my opinion they are as wrong as the rapist or the thief.

So I guess you haven't kept up what's going on...the police now have what they call bait cars. A fake pull over is done and the driver of the car is taken away leaving the car he was in with the keys in it and unlocked. The car is loaded with cameras and can be shut down by the cops waiting for someone to steal it.

It has, in fact, been a show on TV call Bait Car, I believe.

To rape now...Rape is not about sex. It is about power, control. It takes a sick mind to conceive of defiling another human in such a way.

Now that being said...if the sexual act was consensual to begin with but either change their mind then both should stop and talk, but woman being so vulnerable it is quite likely that the man will take advantage of the situation and complete the act.

Should he be charged with rape? A question I can not answer as I have always felt that any such contact is up to the woman to decide and I would follow her every wish.

 

[Liar]

Now that being said...if the sexual act was consensual to begin with but either change their mind then both should stop and talk, but woman being so vulnerable it is quite likely that the man will take advantage of the situation and complete the act.

Should he be charged with rape? A question I can not answer as I have always felt that any such contact is up to the woman to decide and I would follow her every wish.

in that situation he should definitely be charges with rape.

The problem is with the "rape by ignorance" situation, when the man doesn't realize the woman tried to make him stop. Happens quite a bit.

 

[Yesspleasse]

If you leave your keys in your car with the door unlocked and someone steals it the police will say it was your fault that it was stolen. You tempted someone too much. Perhaps poor judgment was used but it was still wrong to steal the car. I think rape is in the same category. There could be a lot of temptation but in the end if one of the parties is not comfortable the other has to walk away. I could also see the police giving the man or woman a hard time by saying they asked for it. In my opinion they are as wrong as the rapist or the thief.

I'm thinking 'wrong', but not 'as wrong' (after all, I think an insurance company will cite personal responsibility in the car key analogy, and not pay out).

Would it be controversial to suggest that circumstances (dressing 'provocatively', inviting someone into your bed.......whatever) might be acceptable as mitigating when it came to sentencing the rapist? Or to put it another way, heavier sentencing in other circumstances? Maybe this is already what happens?

I'm assuming a lot of 'invited onto sofa then changed mind' rapes are not even reported, for obvious reasons, as are 'invited in for coffee and got raped' rapes.

 

[xssve]

So I guess you haven't kept up what's going on...the police now have what they call bait cars. A fake pull over is done and the driver of the car is taken away leaving the car he was in with the keys in it and unlocked. The car is loaded with cameras and can be shut down by the cops waiting for someone to steal it.

It has, in fact, been a show on TV call Bait Car, I believe.

To rape now...Rape is not about sex. It is about power, control. It takes a sick mind to conceive of defiling another human in such a way.

Now that being said...if the sexual act was consensual to begin with but either change their mind then both should stop and talk, but woman being so vulnerable it is quite likely that the man will take advantage of the situation and complete the act.

Should he be charged with rape? A question I can not answer as I have always felt that any such contact is up to the woman to decide and I would follow her every wish.

I still have a problem with lumping that in with attacking a random, unsuspecting victim - by the time you both have your clothes off, presumably, some sort of implicit consent has occurred.

I imagine the reason this is an issue again is because of the Christian erotophobic backlash: libido is a natural urge, it's as basic and primal as hunger, you either deal with it upfront or it sneaks around and bites you in the ass - asking people to suppress a natural urge like that is asking for trouble, it's highly unrealistic, and all you get is a lot of neurotic psychological conflict.

This isn't the dark ages, we have condoms now.

 

[xssve]

But, by the same token, who says it always has to end in coitus? Some of my most memorable sexual experiences were a lot of making out and "heavy petting", you know, first base, second base, all that - it used to be a sort of way of counting coup.

So, it sort of raises the question, is this the first date, or the Third? I dunno what the protocol is in the age of the hookup, but I say you're entitled to mixed feelings for at least the first month or so, but then perhaps I'm being hopelessly old fashioned, but a lot of it has to do with conflicting expectations.

The conflict arises when either the entire arena of human sexuality is characterized as "shameful", or alternatively, when it becomes perceived as a contest rather than a social interaction - they are both ways of abstracting human sexuality into some sort of twisted and irrational institutional construct.

 

[Liar]

I still have a problem with lumping that in with attacking a random, unsuspecting victim - by the time you both have your clothes off, presumably, some sort of implicit consent has occurred.

I don't know about the US, but here there's a legal disctinction between assault rape and other kinds. Assault rape is a double crime just as the name implies, assault and rape. And usually results in a harsher sentence.