*r*e*d*

[artful]

*STOP*
I know,...the title of this thread is a misnomer.
I know,...there may be other accusations of my wrongdoing in this forum. For I and dream have made mistakes. But folks, really, I just don't understand.



Neither dream nor I have engaged in "chat room" type behavior, and now,...for some reason, it is wrong for dream to have,"With Artful's permission," as a header to her posts? I brought dream to the BDSM forum for one reason, so she could ask questions and get answers from MUCH more experienced people than I.



Also, her being NEW to BDSM, to instill trust in her, that whatever I might counsel her with, she could freely put the matter before the community. I am not a hardnosed,"Trust me baby, they don't know shit, I will lead you into this my way," kind of man.



As a matter of fact,...we have not even discussed what she would want to do the first time we meet. Not because it doesn't need to be discussed beforehand, but because she is not ready for a BDSM relationship yet. I brought her here to learn.



To learn from all of you, to get the information, to sort it out, to think about it. She may never have a BDSM relationship with me. Hell, because of how she has been treated so WARMLY by this forum,...she may never enter into a BDSM relationship with anyone.



I don't know,... maybe it is not what she truly wants or needs. Maybe it is a vanilla type relationship she really wants and needs. I am not putting words in her mouth,...these are my words. Yes, I am big enough to eat them too.


Fortunately, there have been a few friends she has made that she PM's with and it has given her strength to pursue this type lifestyle. It really matters not to me, how you folks look at me,(I know, sounds conceited), but I really don't give a fuck.



I wouldn't even have made this post, except, you folks really need to look at how you have been treating her. She is new, new, new! Some of you have been ugly to her, simply because you see her, as an extension of me.



Some of you think I am a fake, a phoney, someone undeserving of respect, but instead of attacking me,...you go after dream.Some of you think,(and have publicly stated)I have a *stable* of ONLINE subs.



Some of you think, and have publicly stated words to the effect,(You are a "busy" man!)because of pre-conceived notions of who Artful is, what he stands for.



I had explained in prior posting about using the, "With Artful's permission," as a header for her posts. No one PM'd me saying,"Hey Art, sorry bud, we just don't allow anyone to do that. Even publicly, it wasn't done.



I did not ask for her to say,"With my Masters permission." That would have been titled, and necessarily considered an honorific. As a matter of fact, for quite some time now,...she has been relieved of having to address me in "specifics".


She has been relieved of having to capitalise in her references to me. Her being new, she has chosen to continue with that form of addressment on her own, "intermittently".



If you folks would read your own posts, you would see where the terms are used by many in addressing their Masters, Mistresses etc. While I agree, no one else may have ever used this training tool in here, I don't see it as a threat to the community.



It serves two purposes, to remind her to think before she posts,(needed),and to ward off those who would attempt to take advantage of her newness,(also needed). Yet, a Moderator (WriterDom) posted on dream's thread:
**************************************************
Artful Dream, have you read the welcoming thread by cym? We discourage cyber serving on the board. No kneeling, curtseying, bowing, or addressing Dom/mes as Master/Mistress. Please try to restrain yourself from starting each post with "with
Artful's permission" in bold at the top of every post.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.
**************************************************
She has not engaged in kneeling, curtseying, bowing, or any other type of "chat room" atmosphere type "playing" in this forum. We both have been adult as to our behavior.



Now folks,...I just want to say,...please,...if you think you have to comment on this thread,... create another thread for those comments, or send a PM to your Moderators. I sincerely ask ALL my friends, and those of you who see this request by WriterDom as being unfair,...don't post your support of dream on this thread. \



I am not trying to start another "EVENT" here. I of course welcome any comment made by a Moderator, and if need be, dream and I will leave the forum, ...but she will continue using the header at the top of all her posts,...until I relieve her of that duty!

Respectfully................................Artful

 

[WriterDom]

No one is asking yall to leave. I seriously doubt this virtual training serves any real function other than to stroke your ego. And I do think it opens the door for the fantasy players to do their "training" here.

I do welcome her here. She can learn a lot from real subs. Not the dungeon and dragon versions. And I'm not putting down the online players. To each their own. We've tried to create something different here. At least that's my understanding.

 

[artful]

No one is asking yall to leave. I seriously doubt this virtual training serves any real function other than to stroke your ego. And I do think it opens the door for the fantasy players to do their "training" here.

I do welcome her here. She can learn a lot from real subs. Not the dungeon and dragon versions. And I'm not putting down the online players. To each their own. We've tried to create something different here. At least that's my understanding.

Thank you WriterDom,...I respect your opinion.

 

[~Dream~]

With Artful's permission,

Hmmmmm?/ Well, I respect BOTH Your opinions actually,and thanks for saying I AM welcome here Writer Dom,Sir, personally I'm still trying to figure out why Master is wanting me to learn about this lifestyle if He indeed thinks I am not ready for it?Dont we all gotta start somewhere?/ hmmm?/ and as for " Dungeons & Dragons?... never did care for that game , it IS pure fantasy and really recquires little skill , my "fantasies" as they may be termed will be brought into very REAL life if I get my wish and my Master so chooses

 

[Sweetwood]

What's the difference?

Artful wrote:

Neither dream nor I have engaged in "chat room" type behavior, and now,...for some reason, it is wrong for dream to have,"With Artful's permission," as a header to her posts? I brought dream to the BDSM forum for one reason, so she could ask questions and get answers from MUCH more experienced people than I.

These are discussion forums n'est pas?

While smiles and cutesy signatures etc. may be just that, they don't really add anything to the discussion. I know, that others have those too, so why not Artful's Dream, but since you raised the subject, I'll throw my mud at you.

If this forum is to gain information and ask questions, then let's do that. I find it sort of disrespectful of others to burden them with the slow progression of Artful's Dream's acquisition of knowledge, love, emotion, and skills in the field of bdsm in minute steps. And at every turn, she twirls and states: Aren't I cute?"

It distracts from the purpose of the forum. It would be a great relief, I think, if we could dispense with the highly visible mickey mouse stuff for a while.

In my heartfelt, humble, domineering opinion.

Sweetdomme

 

[cymbidia]

First:
Why the hell is my name in this thread? I had nothing to do with the post that prompted this thread of Artful's, guys. Nothing at all.


Second:
Artful, you gotta find a way to not blow up over everything you perceive as a slight. Sometimes you gotta just let stuff go, you know? Let it disappear. If you'll notice, no one responded to WD's post. No one. It would have totally disappeared had you not made a big deal out of it.


Third:
Anyone with a sincere interest in acquiring detailed knowledge about BDSM practices as it's done in skin-to-skin ("real life") play, or in acquiring knowledge of the principles and psychology behind the people who do this in our real lives (or those of us who want to get to real life play) is welcome here.



Like any community of people, we have particular customs and ways of being. For instance, we don't do much "cutesy" stuff, i.e., little hearts and flowers sprinkled liberally all over our posts next to (((((huggggggs!!!!))))) to friends who drop in from other online places just to say hello. In my mind, that is chat room type behavior and, as such, has not been a part of our culture. In like manner, we aren't accustomed to gushing about...anything. We all have occasion to smile broadly when talking about something wonderful we've been a part of but none of us gushes day after day over emotional intangibles.

That said, dream is finding her voice. She's finding her strength and thoughts. Perhaps she's learning to speak for herself and give voice to her thoughts - and not just parrot what she's been told/read/heard about BDSM and submissives and who and what we are.

I have no problem with newbies here. I welcome them. It's part of the reason we're here, to help those who are new to this find their way. We are not a chat room. We are not a place to pretend we're "doing" BDSM. We are an informational forum populated by a variety of experienced and not-so-experienced people, most of whom have a sincere interest in BDSM sexuality filling the skin-to-skin portions of thier lives.

I have a huge problem with people who only want to fight. Anyone - anyone - who only wants to fight, whomever they may be, is a deterrent to all of us learning and growing in a peaceful and mutually helpful manner.

No one is asking yall to leave. I seriously doubt this virtual training serves any real function
<snip>
And I do think it opens the door for the fantasy players to do their "training" here.

I agree with these sentiments for the most part. However, since i'm not the one doing the "training" or being "trained" in this manner, i'm staying out of it unless we begin to become innudated with others who are "training" thier partners in a like manner. In that case, i think we'll all be able to see that the chat roomers are trying to descend - and then we'll be forced, as a community, to decide a course of action (or inaction, allowing it to occur).

If this forum is to gain information and ask questions, then let's do that.
<snip>
It would be a great relief, I think, if we could dispense with the highly visible mickey mouse stuff for a while.

Again, i agree with the basics of this sentiment, but for very personal reasons.

Personally i find more than one smiley per post to be overkill. Use words, for god's sakes, don't depend on those stupid smileys to do your talking for you: my overall smiley philosophy.

Personally i find it obnoxious when people who are not part of a community such as ours flitter in to post crap into otherwise good threads, just to say hello and talk about the weather and blow kisses and hugs at each other.

Personally i find sig lines that go for more than a couple lines to be offensive because they fucking clutter up my screen with bullshit i'm not interested in reading again and again and again and again and again after the first time. I suppose i could turn them off but i don't want to because i like to read the vaast majority of sig lines.

Personally, and finally, i'm sick of the bickering. This community is one that has been in place here at Lit for almost a year. We are as we are. If you don't like us, go someplace else. Don't ask us to change to accomodate you, though, because we like the way we are and we don't want to do much changing with respect to our basic vision and reason for being.

Stay and grow with us or leave and grow elsewhere.
It's your choice to become a part of the fabric of this place or not.
No one is holding a gun to your head on this matter.

 

[SpectreT]

I have to admit, I did, and still do, find the "with Artful's permission" somewhat jarring. But that's mainly my own, personal, rather extreme distaste for the verbal aspect of some power play situations. "Master", "Mistress", "Slave", "This One"; these are all things that hit my personal "flinch nerve". Needless to say, verbal humiliation is on my "hard limits" list. That said, if dream is comfortable and happy with it, I have the discipline and strength to ignore it.


And I have done so, until this thing flared up, again.

We cannot keep going like this, folks. There may be some stuff "behind the scenes" that I'm not aware of, but on the face of it, there's a big pile of hostility here, and while it may be, to some degree, justifiable, on both sides, this hostility doesn't just affect a handfull of people (one moderators, and two regular posters, by my current count), it affects every single lurker. When they see this sort of thing, how welcome and comfortable are they going to be? And on the reverse, how are we going to get our job done of educating the masses, if we keep devoting bandwidth to this kind of scrapping?

I thought everyone buried the hatchet, but it looks like it was a shallow grave, at best.

Art, I hate to say it, because I can somewhat see where you're coming from, but you need thicker skin.

On the obverse of this coin; guys? I know it's tough, but some slack is good for everyone's soul, even your own.

And, in absence of our regular Referee, <dingdingding!> end round two! still a draw, and still time for everyone to walk away without any real damage.

Edited to correct my count of combatants

 

[cymbidia]

I am not fighting.

I am not arguing.

I resent anyone trying to implicate me into this matter beyond anything i said all by myself all of which was mild, non-inflammatory, and personal opinion.

Let it fucking go.

 

[SpectreT]

.

 

[WriterDom]

With WriterDom's permission

I'm not opposed to bickering when it comes to matters of principle. We'll never be the tight little community of the Holy Mega Thread. Those days are gone forever.

I see no hostility in voicing my concerns. It wasn't a personal attack of Artful or dream.

 

[artful]

In leaving, I will say this! Artful's pet has had an active thread in the BDSM forum since 4-02-02.


Not once in all that time, has anyone complained of her having to put as a header to her posts, "With Artful's permission,"...at least I am not aware of it.



So when a forum Moderator jumps on dream's case about doing it,...yeah,...I get protective of her feelings,...she is a human being, and it was uncalled for.



I made it clear at the beginning of this thread, I didn't want to have comments made to this thread, other than Moderators. You folks can accuse me of being thin skinned, if that is your opinion, I respect that,...but in my heart, I disagree.



For some reason, unknown to me, I keep getting public invites to change and fit in, or leave. I have never seen that publicly offerred to Sweetwood, ...so I assume I am the misfit here.



So that dream can continue on here, I relieve her of having to place, "With Artful's permission," as a header to her posts. I am not leaving this forum mad,...but sad.



I will no longer post here, and when Artful's pet comes back, I will also relieve her of that duty.


I may have erred a number of times, in my attempts to join this community, but it was never meant to be hateful,or antagonistic toward anyone,till I felt dream being SINGLED out.



Then,...it was only done in self defense, as pride became an issue. Sweetwood,...have a nice day!

 

[CarolineOh]

Gee, does that mean the peons are allowed to post in this thread now?

Artful, you've played this "I'm taking my toys and going home" game before.
The last time you gave a farewell speech you were back hurling insults in a few hours, so I doubt you will be gone long this time.
I hope that in the interim you will seriously consider growing up.

 

[Sweetwood]

Left artless

Artful:

It would be a sad day indeed if you decided to leave. I have been called shit disturber, nasty, antagonistic, and I have been told to leave if I don't like it.

This is an amazing site with good people of whom you are one. But you chafe my rearend with your holier than thou attitude. That you instill good feelings in some if not most of the people here is amply evidenced by the responses you get from all quarters.

So cut the pomp and circumstance, be real and pm me and we'll have a chat. How is that?

Sweetwood

 

[DVS]

Not once in all that time, has anyone complained of her having to put as a header to her posts, "With Artful's permission,"...at least I am not aware of it.

It didn't bother me, because I thought she wanted to put that header there. Personally, if she has to put it there, I would complain.

But, rules are rules. Unwritten rules are one thing. But, written rules are another.
BDSM Forum Rules

I can look past some of that online chat stuff, but I never really took to it. My partner is rather new to BDSM, and she had only had a little experience, and it was online experience. Most of her information has come from reading online chats and stories. When she asked if I should be called Sir or Master or any of that other stuff, I said what ever you want to call me is fine. Personally, I don't care. It seems to be an ego thing to me, and like someone else has said, it tends to make me squimish, when I hear it from others. It may be seen as a respect thing, but I don't need words to feel respected. Maybe I don't rate Master status, but I don't care. We aren't playing a game here, we are talking about our lives. If someone is trying to learn about their feelings, doesn't it seem all of that capital letter stuff, and Sir this and Master that stuff is getting in the way?

And, I also don't think anybody should feel they have to leave. Getting on with the discussion of BDSM should be the main thing here.

Sorry, I posted to this thread. I know it was requested not to. Such is life.

 

[~Dream~]

such is life indeed..

Originally posted at Midwest thread and Jewelz playhouse:
ok ok I AM starting this post to all Our friends at this thread:
Artful& I are no longer Master& slave but have decided mutually , in the best interests of our relationship to start all over and be friends . We do however,STILL Love ,cherish and respect each other very much..I cannot speak for him as he is "crashed" zzzzzz poor baby .. but I can tell you that online for now it may only be, but My goal is to be a very good friend to Him, to meet Him perhaps someday and be His Real-life lover as I am in love with Him , I cherish Him, and I couldnt imagine my life without Him in it.I truly hope this does not discourage anyone from BDSM lifestyle as I will continue to learn about it and who knows what the future holds.I plan to do my best to show my love for Artful and give everything
I can (after taking care of me & my kids needs 1st) to OUR relationship so hopefully with time and alot of Love it will grow.. thanks to everyone for putting up with me and my many mood swings lately.. I will be changing my avy soon.. and would like to know where to go to get one?/ We love You all very much and appreciate the support and understanding you have shown.
~hugs~

 

[RisiaSkye]

Just this:
Oh. My. Gawd.

*shaking head*

Not me, kids. I'm not playing in this sandbox for one more minute. Like each other, hate each other, what-fucking-ever you wanna do.

I'm too tired for this.

 

[cymbidia]

Ahem.

General announcement:
R will be a little bit grumpy this week cuz it's finals week.
She's got to give them and take some pretty serious tests of her own. (Or are those all done now, R? I get so confused at the astounding array of tests in your life.)

Okay.
Resume playing.

 

[~Dream~]

re:cymbidia

nice post.. good luck on your finals Risia as I know firsthand what that's like .,.going back for my 3rd year of college in sept..taking Criminal Law but will proc change to Psych-straight A's in all those courses.

 

[RisiaSkye]

dream: thanks. Finals are over for me, but I'm still grading student essays, which is far more difficult than taking tests, I find. I'll be glad when this week is over.