Question. How much torture is too much in Erotica?

[Bianca_Sommerland]

I'm writing a story for excessica, heard good things about them, and I have an awesome idea about two people held captive by vampires for amusement. The pair fall in love quick, due to their circumstances (I am shocked I can write love, don't much believe in it) and are tortured to break one another. I'm just curious. Does anyone know how much is too much when it comes to graphic violence in erotica? I know different publishers have different rules, but what's the general consensus?

 

[bronzeage]

In any writing, there is a point where the description goes from literary to clinical.

I have read some work where it was more like a Popular Mechanics article than erotica, but some people get off on the elaborate details of knots and hardware.

There probably is no precise standard of excess graphic description, but the editors will know when it starts to detract from the story.

 

[slyc_willie]

One of the best and most cringing descriptions of torture I've read was in Stephen King's The Dark Half. The passage was a snippet from one of the main character's fictional works, about a man named Alexis Machine. King went into detail about Machine unfolding a paper clip while straddling the chest of his victim, then inserting it through the eyelid and into the eyeball whereupon it popped. The scene then faded away, but you definitely received the impression that Machine's poor victim suffered much worse torture later on.

Starting with just enough detail, then fading off ("He then reached for her hand as he gripped the shears in malevolent anticipation . . .") often makes for more cringe-worthy moments for the reader, IMO.

 

[3113]

I'm just curious. Does anyone know how much is too much when it comes to graphic violence in erotica?

It depends, of course. Is the graphic violence supposed to be erotic? Or is it supposed to be horrific? Erotica is supposed to turn a person on and give them a sexual thrill, but that doesn't mean you can't have a good horror story around it.

One thing you should do is check out the Horror category here and read that top rated stories. See how much they balanced out the two.

The other thing you should do is decide what kind of story this is and what kinds of feelings you're trying to give your reader, and who your reader is for that matter. If you're trying to scare people and leave them with erotic nightmares, well, the stories that usually do that are often the ones where most of the horror and scariness are left to the reader's imagination. Because the reader can usually imagine scarier than you can put into words--very like monsters are scarier if you don't show them in their entirety. But if the violence is part of a BDSM element, then you need to take tis question to the BDSM forum and ask them for advice on where you might draw the line.

While horror movies with gore and guts and torture like Saw may be popular, they're usually a matter of gross-out and even comedy--how much "eww!" can you get from the audience. How many times can you make them jump and scream? That's not going to be erotic, not even for BDSM, and it's not necessarily going haunt the reader after they've finished reading it. So what feelings are you trying to elicit from the audience? That will help tell you where to start and stop.

 

[Bianca_Sommerland]

Thanks guys. That helps. I really like the idea of fading off to leave a bit to the readers imagination. It's not really horror, more dark urban fantasy. The torture is not for pleasure, I know scenes like that have to be carefully balanced. Kind of like non-consent and rape. You can't use rape for a scene meant to arouse.

I know how I want the reader to feel, but until the idea of fading out I wasn't sure how graphic I could be. I get how overdoing it could start to sound clinical. The torure itself is meant to draw certain emotions so I guess the nuts and bolts are irrelevant.

Alright. Think I got it. Back to the drawing board

 

[CharleyH]

I'm just curious. Does anyone know how much is too much when it comes to graphic violence in erotica? I know different publishers have different rules, but what's the general consensus?

There is no rule or reason. If you want to publish somewhere, then research the publication and discover how much, or not, violence they want. Barring that, start your own website, or self-publish.

 

[Bianca_Sommerland]

There is no rule or reason. If you want to publish somewhere, then research the publication and discover how much, or not, violence they want. Barring that, start your own website, or self-publish.

That's the thing. Some publishers have strict rules. Others don't. I guess in the end it's more a question of what readers like. I'm assuming it's the same rule that goes for anything else. If it fits the story, and flows well, it's all good. If it doesn't then fix it. I want to make a good story that people will like, without being cliche. SO far the story seems to be doing well.

 

[WRJames]

My personal opinion is that for a situation to be eventually erotic, it should not involve any actual maiming or death -- so popping an eyeball would be out of bounds.

Of course, violence including murder can be part of a story, but to my mind it wouldn't be an erotic part.

 

[Bianca_Sommerland]

My personal opinion is that for a situation to be eventually erotic, it should not involve any actual maiming or death -- so popping an eyeball would be out of bounds.

Of course, violence including murder can be part of a story, but to my mind it wouldn't be an erotic part.

Hmmm. Now I'm worried. Should it be considered 'Erotica' or 'Erotic Paranormal' or 'Erotic Urban Fantasy'. There are a lot of sex scenes. They are essencial to the plot, which by deffinition makes it erotica (from what I've read anyway). Then again that isn't the main focus. The main focus is the two main characters getting out of the situation.

Damn. Maybe I'm making this too complicated.

 

[slyc_willie]

Hmmm. Now I'm worried. Should it be considered 'Erotica' or 'Erotic Paranormal' or 'Erotic Urban Fantasy'. There are a lot of sex scenes. They are essencial to the plot, which by deffinition makes it erotica (from what I've read anyway). Then again that isn't the main focus. The main focus is the two main characters getting out of the situation.

Damn. Maybe I'm making this too complicated.

Paranormal Fiction with Erotic Content.

 

[3113]

Maybe I'm making this too complicated.

Write the story. See where it goes and what you end up with. The editing process is where you can decide if something didn't work and needs to go, or did work and can stay, and what it ought to be called and all that.

 

[Bianca_Sommerland]

Paranormal Fiction with Erotic Content.

Sounds good. Phew. I hate thinking about classification when I'm in the middle of a story.

 

[Bianca_Sommerland]

Write the story. See where it goes and what you end up with. The editing process is where you can decide if something didn't work and needs to go, or did work and can stay, and what it ought to be called and all that.

I know...but what worries me is looking unproffessional when they ask me what to class it under. Naturally they can change it, but if I'm close I'm sure it helps.

 

[BrazenFellow]

Wouldn't worry too much about that. You'll want to finish the story, wait half a day and proofread it before you go handing it out to editors anyways, which gives you plenty of time to think about classification and allows you to weigh your classification choice based on the entire story, rather than just the first half. Particularly important if it gets darker and grittier later, or climbs up out of the grime near the end.

As to the original question: There is a point where humans stop processing what's in their environment so they can cope with it. People will run a thousand yards to see blood (drawn to an accident) and then run a thousand yards to get away from it. There is some attraction to it and you can see how it's possible to combine horror and eroticism, even the type that involves blood, bruises and tears rather than the psychological kind of dominance and submission that seems to be the draw for a lot of folks over on the BDSM boards.

You can provide a lot of description and detail but you risk losing flow if you do that. You also risk alienating readers who do not want a Popular Mechanics (as bronzeage so aptly put it) approach. A possible approach for torture that involves separating the two as opposed to torturing them in front of one another, is to have one character move to say, embrace the other and the other flinch away because his ribs are fractured. This would tie into the concept of not needing to see it to know it's there.

This may also make the subject matter easier for you to handle. I recently wrote something that I took on as part of an idea to "expand my horizons", which I quite stupidly took as "write the next thing that pops up to the top of the Story Ideas forum". Usually this is stuff I don't have much interest in. In this case it was something rather brutal, but I was able to write what is apparently a pretty good story on it, but it took quite some time and I took a rather anthropological approach to it in terms of justifying how the event in question is happening. If torture makes you uncomfortable* (I bring this up because you're apparently halfway through and started asking questions, which sometimes indicates an unwillingness to proceed further without a little prodding, e.g. searching for support) then as suggested there are a couple of different approaches you can take.

* - I don't mean to say that torture is something you should be comfortable with, just to know your boundaries.

 

[Bianca_Sommerland]

Wouldn't worry too much about that. You'll want to finish the story, wait half a day and proofread it before you go handing it out to editors anyways, which gives you plenty of time to think about classification and allows you to weigh your classification choice based on the entire story, rather than just the first half. Particularly important if it gets darker and grittier later, or climbs up out of the grime near the end.

As to the original question: There is a point where humans stop processing what's in their environment so they can cope with it. People will run a thousand yards to see blood (drawn to an accident) and then run a thousand yards to get away from it. There is some attraction to it and you can see how it's possible to combine horror and eroticism, even the type that involves blood, bruises and tears rather than the psychological kind of dominance and submission that seems to be the draw for a lot of folks over on the BDSM boards.

You can provide a lot of description and detail but you risk losing flow if you do that. You also risk alienating readers who do not want a Popular Mechanics (as bronzeage so aptly put it) approach. A possible approach for torture that involves separating the two as opposed to torturing them in front of one another, is to have one character move to say, embrace the other and the other flinch away because his ribs are fractured. This would tie into the concept of not needing to see it to know it's there.

This may also make the subject matter easier for you to handle. I recently wrote something that I took on as part of an idea to "expand my horizons", which I quite stupidly took as "write the next thing that pops up to the top of the Story Ideas forum". Usually this is stuff I don't have much interest in. In this case it was something rather brutal, but I was able to write what is apparently a pretty good story on it, but it took quite some time and I took a rather anthropological approach to it in terms of justifying how the event in question is happening. If torture makes you uncomfortable* (I bring this up because you're apparently halfway through and started asking questions, which sometimes indicates an unwillingness to proceed further without a little prodding, e.g. searching for support) then as suggested there are a couple of different approaches you can take.

* - I don't mean to say that torture is something you should be comfortable with, just to know your boundaries.

Actually at this point it was more, 'Wow, that was brutal, it's only gonna get worse...will it be too much for people?' that made me pause. It kept sticking in the back of my head that some publishers will flat out reject any story with excessive violence, but I wanted to stay true to the story.

Besides a few short anthologies this is the first thing I've writen with any rules applied other then my own. I'm being careful to keep all characters involved in sex over eighteen, make a strong connection that grows to love, and find a way to make it HEA.

Crazy thing is, all this careful planning is making this story the hardest thing I've ever writen. I've never had so many writer's blocks (which luckily I know how to get out of) in my life. I guess writing it and then looking it over and assesing it later would be a good idea.

I think the idea of having some off set (best way I can think to describe it) torture might help. Another way to let the readers imagine the words without seeing it.

 

[3113]

Here's the most important thing, I think, and how you know when it's too much for any story: When it's torture for torture's sake, and not for the story's sake.

There are movies and stories which are just torture for torture's sake, and people who like such stories. But that's a pretty narrow audience. One such movie may make a lot of money, but seven of them won't. Because one is usually all that most people need, and only the aficionados keep going to see them one after another.

Putting it another way, if it's torture for torture's sake, you only get people who read that all the time, or those in the mood for it at the moment. But if it's a story where the torture doesn't feel excessive and pointless and just for the sake of torturing the characters...if it matters to plot, character development, if it makes the story powerful and true to itself and its theme, then readers won't have a problem with it. And I mean won't have a problem by getting bored or tired with it and wondering if it's going to ever end and when the story is going to get back to the sex.

The story will stay erotic because the torture won't feel like a detour, an indulgence by the writer. It will feel integral to the story and do it's job to further that story. This doesn't mean that you might not over-do it in the first draft. In fact, go ahead, over do it. Just keep this in mind as you re-read and edit and you'll be fine.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Answer is very simple. It depends on who's being tortured and who's doing the torturing. For instance if the Tortured is Scouries there really is no limit.

 

[Bianca_Sommerland]

Here's the most important thing, I think, and how you know when it's too much for any story: When it's torture for torture's sake, and not for the story's sake.

There are movies and stories which are just torture for torture's sake, and people who like such stories. But that's a pretty narrow audience. One such movie may make a lot of money, but seven of them won't. Because one is usually all that most people need, and only the aficionados keep going to see them one after another.

Putting it another way, if it's torture for torture's sake, you only get people who read that all the time, or those in the mood for it at the moment. But if it's a story where the torture doesn't feel excessive and pointless and just for the sake of torturing the characters...if it matters to plot, character development, if it makes the story powerful and true to itself and its theme, then readers won't have a problem with it. And I mean won't have a problem by getting bored or tired with it and wondering if it's going to ever end and when the story is going to get back to the sex.

The story will stay erotic because the torture won't feel like a detour, an indulgence by the writer. It will feel integral to the story and do it's job to further that story. This doesn't mean that you might not over-do it in the first draft. In fact, go ahead, over do it. Just keep this in mind as you re-read and edit and you'll be fine.

Good points. Actually I like the idea of just going with it and taking more care in editing. My bad habit of editing while I write often jamms up creativity and I always re-edit a few times after it's done anyway. Right now it looks like all is going well plot wise, but I won't know for sure until the story is done.

Everyone here has helped so much. Already I see the story going better with using some of your tips. I can't wait until it's done, I'm so proud of it already. I like knowing that the imput of some of the very people who read and write the same kind of story will make it much better then it would have been otherwise.

Funny thing. I was actually worried at one point that I would have to much torture, and not enough sex. I wasn't sure where in the plot sex would fit naturally when the torture appeared much easier to place. Now the torture is fading back where it belongs, as a good plot point that serves it's purpose each and every time, and I have quite a few really hot sex scenes that, from what I can tell right now, flow very well.

I love when I'm excited about a story. It turns out so much better then one I liked when the idea came out, but got stuck in and have to rip out. I'm very excited about this one now. I think it's safe to say it's gonna be a good, if not great, read!