Question about Men having sex with Men (who are straight)

[GivenItATry]

Hey everyone,

I'm working on a novella in which the main character has many affairs through the course of his life. He is straight, but at one point, one of his affairs involves seduction by another man, who, as it turns out, is also straight. Both were depressed, alientated, and lonely at the time. both were also drinking. Both were grieving insufferable losses and longing for human connection.

My question is, in that type of scenario, would it be believable for two straight men to have sex, or an affair, even? Or would that take the story from poignant novella to the realm of fantasy/science fiction?

I would like to hear from anyone who may have insights.

Thanks so much.

 

[sr71plt]

I'd say they both were really bi and just hadn't discovered that yet (although I've written stories depicting the straight-straight scenario as possible). At least one of them needs to be something other than straight straight to cross a pretty hard line, I think. If you go for the crutch of both of them being drunk at the time, I go back to both of them really being bi to begin with.

 

[S-Des]

Possibly, if they were drunk and emotionally confused. Otherwise, it's most definitely a case of someone being gay or at least bi. As a straight man, I cannot achieve an erection with another man. I find nothing attractive about the male physique, and and no attraction to them even as a purely sexual one. We are very physically creatures, and stimulation alone could cause a sexual response if inhibitions are lowered (through drugs or alcohol). An affair would only be possible if you found some attraction in the other person (unless you were willing to receive gratification from someone with no interest in reciprocating). In that case, it becomes a borderline abusive relationship, with the receiver coming to look down on the giver (possibly even despising them).

 

[3113]

Possibly, if they were drunk and emotionally confused.

Or in jail? Just sayin...

 

[midwestyankee]

If both characters are drunk, won't that dilute the emotional impact of the sex scene? Why bother with a cliché (drunken sex outside of one's usual norm) when you can follow SR71's suggestion and knit yourself a more plausible and emotionally compelling scene?

 

[sr71plt]

Or in jail? Just sayin...

That's an overworked (very overworked) cliche.

 

[S-Des]

That's an overworked (very overworked) cliche.

Actually, that's what I was getting at (sort of) with the second part of my post. Jail sex is not about closeness or anything romantic (at least not between straight men), it's about power and sadism. The people who have no attraction to a person, but are willing to allow them to "perform" for them....they are immoral (or amoral at best). They're willing to do anything that makes them feel better, with no thought to the other person (or possibly derision of them). I'm guessing that's not the sort of relationship Given was looking for.

It seems pretty simple to take two men (or at least one of them) who never considered being with another man, but found a one-time attraction to a specific person (isn't that the point of Brokeback Mountain?). But if you're really straight, you couldn't have an affair with another man because you'd be physically unable to perform.

 

[WRJames]

You might consider using a woman as a catalyst. They are both with her, and she starts getting them to do naughty things to each other.

 

[S-Des]

You might consider using a woman as a catalyst. They are both with her, and she starts getting them to do naughty things to each other.

See, now that's my favorite Lesbian fantasy. I still remember the first one of those I ever read in a Penthouse when I was a kid (probably not even a teenager). There's a wonderful naughtiness in talking someone into something they wouldn't normally participate in (using subtle persuasion, not force or blackmail).

 

[Darkniciad]

You might consider using a woman as a catalyst. They are both with her, and she starts getting them to do naughty things to each other.

This was the other scenario that seemed believable to me, for as close to straight as an arrow as possible M/M encounters. If he's so tuned into her arousal that whatever turns her on can push his boundaries, it might be possible in the heat of the moment.

 

[Safe_Bet]

You might consider using a woman as a catalyst. They are both with her, and she starts getting them to do naughty things to each other.

See, now that's my favorite Lesbian fantasy. I still remember the first one of those I ever read in a Penthouse when I was a kid (probably not even a teenager). There's a wonderful naughtiness in talking someone into something they wouldn't normally participate in (using subtle persuasion, not force or blackmail).

One woman with two men??? How is that a lesbian fantasy?

 

[GivenItATry]

great insights

thanks everyone. loving the insights you've given me. i suppose i never really bought into the notion that people are 100% gay or 100% straight--most anyway. the main character has a deep longing for human connection, compounded by depression. I can leave the booze out--that is indeed trite. But he's grasping at straws for that connection, unaware of what he lacks. The other dude can and should be bi or gay, I'm now convinced. they couldn't both be straight.

 

[sr71plt]

I've used that scenario. A bi guy wanting another guy who is shying away and using a willing female surrogate to get the other guy involved. But to give it credibility, I built in the supposition by the first guy that the second was susceptible and just needed to be eased into it (and had the story make that true--e.g., my "Surrogate Lover Too"). And the first guy wasn't straight and was orchestrating the pitch. Two straight guys just falling into each other's arms is pretty much fantasy and I've only done this in a tongue-in-cheek farce way (e.g., with my "Day the Earth Moved")--and then I didn't let them go back to being straight.

 

[sr71plt]

One woman with two men??? How is that a lesbian fantasy?

I don't think it is either. It's a male bi or arrested-development gay male fantasy.

 

[Darkniciad]

I don't think it is either. It's a male bi or arrested-development gay male fantasy.

I think he was referring to a guy persuading two women to cross over boundaries in the same way as the current suggestion the other way -- just slightly confusing wording.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I cant speak for everyone, but being straight, the idea of having sex with a man just doesnt compute for me. The attraction doesnt exist. So I wouldnt find your story plausible.

 

[S-Des]

I think he was referring to a guy persuading two women to cross over boundaries in the same way as the current suggestion the other way -- just slightly confusing wording.

Exactly. I was referring to a post that talked about a woman pushing her partner's boundaries to try something different. That (a male pushing his female partner's boundaries in that way) is one of my favorite lesbian fantasies. The man's involvement can be limited to watching or partial involvement (possibly with one of the women). M-Y Erotica's North Shore is a great example of that type. There's also a contest winner from another site that did it extremely well.

 

[sr71plt]

Exactly. I was referring to a post that talked about a woman pushing her partner's boundaries to try something different. That (a male pushing his female partner's boundaries in that way) is one of my favorite lesbian fantasies. The man's involvement can be limited to watching or partial involvement (possibly with one of the women). M-Y Erotica's North Shore is a great example of that type. There's also a contest winner from another site that did it extremely well.

Before safe-bet sweeps in again, I'll note that if there is a male involved at all, it isn't lesbian--it's bi.

 

[S-Des]

Before safe-bet sweeps in again, I'll note that if there is a male involved at all, it isn't lesbian--it's bi.

No, if the focus of the action is woman on woman, it's lesbian. If the man is only tangentially involved, it's not bi (certainly not for the woman he never even has sex with). If the focus is on the woman who's having both, then it's bi. You could of course claim it's both, but that's a judgment based on the facts of the story. Most stories have multiple tags, so the determining factor is on what story the author is attempting to tell.

 

[sr71plt]

No, if the focus of the action is woman on woman, it's lesbian. If the man is only tangentially involved, it's not bi (certainly not for the woman he never even has sex with). If the focus is on the woman who's having both, then it's bi. You could of course claim it's both, but that's a judgment based on the facts of the story. Most stories have multiple tags, so the determining factor is on what story the author is attempting to tell.

OK, I'll let safe-bet tell you (unless your "only tangentially involved," which is already backpeddling, means the male is in another room).

 

[S-Des]

OK, I'll let safe-bet tell you (unless your "only tangentially involved," which is already backpeddling, means the male is in another room).

I'm trying to figure out what part of this is so difficult to understand. I said my favorite lesbian fantasy involved the man getting a woman to seduce another woman. If my girlfriend has sex with another woman while I watch, how exactly is it "bi" for me?

You could call it group sex, but now you're bringing in another genre (and I already said the man is not the focus, so may not have sex with either of them....only be involved to facilitate one's seduction by the other). I don't backpedal, I said what I meant the first time. Most stories have multiple tags, so they are placed (often by Lit without the author's approval) in the category that seems to be the main focus. It's really pretty simple.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm trying to figure out what part of this is hard for you to understand. I said my favorite lesbian fantasy involved the man getting a woman to seduce another woman. If my girlfriend has sex with another woman while I watch, how exactly is it "bi" for me?

You could call it group sex, but now you're bringing in another genre (and I already said the man is not the focus, so may not have sex with either of them....only be involved to facilitate one's seduction by the other). I don't backpedal, I said what I meant the first time. Most stories have multiple tags, so they are placed (often by Lit without the author's approval) in the category that seems to be the main focus. It's really pretty simple.

If a male is involved in the sex, it isn't lesbian, it's bi (on the part of the women). Perhaps you mean to use a different word than "involved" or want to backpeddle farther. Can't quite see how the male seduces an unwitting woman into having sex with another woman without being involved in the foreplay himself--which is sex--and, by definition, would be bi on their part. Granted, if he's sitting in another room and watching them have sex through a window, that would be lesbian sex, but you'd have to backpeddle more from your original to get there.

WRJames set a scene of active three-way sex that included a male and you identified that as your lesbian fantasy and safe-bet objected to that and then you backpeddled but have that word "involved" attached to the male and the sex act.

That wasn't hard at all for me to follow--even as you started changing the story.

 

[slyc_willie]

I'd agree that at least one of the men would have to be aware that he is bisexual, gay, or at least bi-curious. The other would be in a state of mild depression, perhaps, or maybe his own curiosity has been piqued by the attentions of another man. Since men are typically visually cued when it comes to sexual arousal, having the potential seducer being in some way physically attractive to the first man would be a good way to get things going.

To wit: I am, I suppose, technically bisexual. I have had sexual encounters with men, and I am well aware that those I have been with have all been "pretty boys." Well-groomed, well-dressed, slender and at least a little on the obvious side of feminine. A muscular man does not turn me on in the slightest. Slender limbs, clean-shaven face, etc., does.

Maybe this helps, maybe it doesn't. But it might make for a more plausible scene if, from the "straight" man's point of view, there are some feminine aspects of the other man that arouse him. And a smart, suave seducer who understands how his attitude and appearance can sway men his way would know how to approach a reluctant conquest.

 

[S-Des]

If a male is involved in the sex, it isn't lesbian, it's bi (on the part of the women). Perhaps you mean to use a different word than "involved" or want to backpeddle farther. Can't quite see how the male seduces an unwitting woman into having sex with another woman without being involved in the foreplay himself--which is sex--and, by definition, would be bi on their part. Granted, if he's sitting in another room and watching them have sex through a window, that would be lesbian sex, but you'd have to backpeddle more from your original to get there.

WRJames set a scene of active three-way sex that included a male and you identified that as your lesbian fantasy and safe-bet objected to that and then you backpeddled but have that word "involved" attached to the male and the sex act.

That wasn't hard at all for me to follow--even as you started changing the story.

James didn't say all three partners had sex, only that the woman facilitates the man's seduction by the other man (he did say they were both "with her," but I didn't assume he meant all three had sex with each other, only that they were together at the start with the express purpose of the men eventually having sex, since that's what the thread was about in the first place) . If you're claiming that a man kissing a woman qualifies as sex, then I really need to upgrade the number of women I've had sex with.

You keep saying I'm backpedaling, but haven't shown a single example of anything I've said that has changed from the first post. In addition, you claimed that if a man has a threesome with two women, somehow he's bi. So let's try this from scratch...I ask my girlfriend to have sex with her friend (who's never been with a woman before) for my fantasy, but she says the only way it'll happen is if we pretend it's supposed to be about the friend and me with my girlfriend present (otherwise her friend would be too freaked out). I kiss the other woman to get things started, then the women wind up together without me doing anything else with the friend. I'm not having a bi-sexual experience, her friend is not having a bisexual experience (again, unless you consider kissing to be the same as sex), and only my girlfriend is having sex with both of us. If the story is told from my perspective, it's group sex. If it's told from my girlfriend's, then it's bi (or also group). If it's told from her friend's, then it's lesbian (and if I don't even wind up having sex with my girlfriend while she's seducing the other woman, it's a stretch to call any of it bi). My favorite lesbian fantasy doesn't actually include me having sex with both women (go figure).

I can see why you thought the guy would probably have sex with both women, but that's not what I said, or what I was referring to (and if you'd like to read the specific stories I was thinking of, I'll be happy to get you links). I've seen the same scenario in dozens of stories where the man either winds up as a voyeur, or only with one of the women (usually his wife/girlfriend). Call me crazy, but I enjoy the thought of watching two beautiful women make love, even if I wind up with only one (or have to sit out the night as a bystander).

 

[Vermilion]

James didn't say all three partners had sex, only that the woman facilitates the man's seduction by the other man (he did say they were both "with her," but I didn't assume he meant all three had sex with each other, only that they were together at the start with the express purpose of the men eventually having sex, since that's what the thread was about in the first place) . If you're claiming that a man kissing a woman qualifies as sex, then I really need to upgrade the number of women I've had sex with.

You keep saying I'm backpedaling, but haven't shown a single example of anything I've said that has changed from the first post. In addition, you claimed that if a man has a threesome with two women, somehow he's bi. So let's try this from scratch...I ask my girlfriend to have sex with her friend (who's never been with a woman before) for my fantasy, but she says the only way it'll happen is if we pretend it's supposed to be about the friend and me with my girlfriend present (otherwise her friend would be too freaked out). I kiss the other woman to get things started, then the women wind up together without me doing anything else with the friend. I'm not having a bi-sexual experience, her friend is not having a bisexual experience (again, unless you consider kissing to be the same as sex), and only my girlfriend is having sex with both of us. If the story is told from my perspective, it's group sex. If it's told from my girlfriend's, then it's bi (or also group). If it's told from her friend's, then it's lesbian (and if I don't even wind up having sex with my girlfriend while she's seducing the other woman, it's a stretch to call any of it bi). My favorite lesbian fantasy doesn't actually include me having sex with both women (go figure).

I can see why you thought the guy would probably have sex with both women, but that's not what I said, or what I was referring to (and if you'd like to read the specific stories I was thinking of, I'll be happy to get you links). I've seen the same scenario in dozens of stories where the man either winds up as a voyeur, or only with one of the women (usually his wife/girlfriend). Call me crazy, but I enjoy the thought of watching two beautiful women make love, even if I wind up with only one (or have to sit out the night as a bystander).

To be honest I would call that bi... from any PoV... If the man is necessary to get the reluctant woman involved then it's bi. The only way a 1 man 2 women scenario could be lesbian is if, perhaps, the women tied him down and fucked in front of him, and their arousal didn;t depend upon his presence in any way shape or form, and that would be kinda aggressive...

I find conversations like this weird, anyway. Being bi I find it utterly incomprehensible that you couldn't fancy someone just because they're the wrong gender.... I try to imagine it, but it just doesn't compute for me

To get back to the OP - I think you've made the right choice and your story sounds interesting and well thought out -- post a link when it goes up

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