Q's Conspiracy Round Up

[BlackShanglan]

I don't know. You would think we were discussing religious beliefs, not the facts involved in a crime.

I think that in a way we are. Have you ever read Michael Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things? It stings a bit to have him lump my religion in with Holocaust denial and Creationism, but he's got good points on the ways fact and belief can get confused with each other.

If you're personally confused about many of the facts and you have a half-baked grasp of how the scientific community forms consensus on theories, it can look like it's all a matter of belief anyway, because it all involves things that, for the confused individual at least, appear to be faith in the incomprehensible. It's a short leap from "I don't know how these things fit together" to "No one's ever explained how these things fit together" when the explanations involve years of careful study to understand. It's much easier to assume that it's impossible to fit the pieces together, or to assume that only blind faith makes people assume that they fit.

 

[phrodeau]

(edited)
YES

THE COLLAPSES STARTED BELOW THE PLANE IMPACT POINTS.


FIRST BIG EXPLOSION WAS BELOW THE PLANE IMPACT AREA
.

Sounds reasonable.

Maybe the first explosion was an electrical transformer. Please prove that it wasn't.

Maybe the first explosion was a crushed CO2 canister in a snack bar soda fountain. Please prove that it wasn't.

Maybe the first explosion was a crushed fire extinguisher. Please prove that it wasn't.

Maybe the first explosion was a crushed oxygen tank which fell from the plane itself. Please prove that it wasn't.

Maybe the first explosion was a grenade that one of the hijackers smuggled aboard in his rectum. Please prove that it wasn't.

 

[Veryknowing]

Sounds reasonable.

Maybe the first explosion was an electrical transformer. Please prove that it wasn't.

Maybe the first explosion was a crushed CO2 canister in a snack bar soda fountain. Please prove that it wasn't.

Maybe the first explosion was a crushed fire extinguisher. Please prove that it wasn't.

Maybe the first explosion was a crushed oxygen tank which fell from the plane itself. Please prove that it wasn't.

Maybe the first explosion was a grenade that one of the hijackers smuggled aboard in his rectum. Please prove that it wasn't.

Can't prove a negative

Ilogical and fallacious set of requests

 

[Byron In Exile]

I think that in a way we are. Have you ever read Michael Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things? It stings a bit to have him lump my religion in with Holocaust denial and Creationism, but he's got good points on the ways fact and belief can get confused with each other.

If you're personally confused about many of the facts and you have a half-baked grasp of how the scientific community forms consensus on theories, it can look like it's all a matter of belief anyway, because it all involves things that, for the confused individual at least, appear to be faith in the incomprehensible. It's a short leap from "I don't know how these things fit together" to "No one's ever explained how these things fit together" when the explanations involve years of careful study to understand. It's much easier to assume that it's impossible to fit the pieces together, or to assume that only blind faith makes people assume that they fit.

It would be great if the pieces fit.

But they don't fit.

 

[Byron In Exile]

I read Rush To Judgment quite some years ago. I don't recall any other titles offhand. Do you have a recommendation?

(Note to LnN: Since Byron is a rational guy, worthy of respect, I'll listen to his side of the issue and consider his opinion. See, being nuts has it's drawbacks.)

My main recommendation would be the Warren Report.

I am serious.

The only people I know of who believe in the Warren Report's conclusions are people who never read it.

I found it quite convincing.

 

[Queersetti]

Fucking Byron. He never told me who killed Kennedy.

 

[patient1]

Fucking Byron. He never told me who killed Kennedy.

D.B. Cooper.

 

[Disgustipated]

Fucking Byron. He never told me who killed Kennedy.

The Ukraine missile. Duh.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

Fucking Byron. He never told me who killed Kennedy.

You were right the first time.

 

[patient1]

People/organizations fuck up, then everybody else looks the other way while they scramble to cover their own asses, even if it's pointing fingers in other directions. That's all. It's normal human behavior.


Lyndon Johnson, The Communists, the Cubans, the CIA, the FBI, the Joint chiefs of staff, the Secret Service , the Dallas police and the Mafia did not suddenly all put aside their blood-feuds and work together like never before to prevent the pending establishment of Utopia in the USA , while staying below the radar of the President, his adoring press, and the Attorney General.

 

[girlsmiley]

The Ukraine missile. Duh.

Are you trying to be funny?

Because you just sound like a fucking dick to me.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

A conspiracy is made up of malcontents, each with the power, by discloser, to be contented.

Niccolo Machiavelli

Damn. If I had blamed everything on the Jews, this thread would have gone 5 pages already.

That Cap'n guy is a pretty smart fucker.

Note the AV by Byron...

 

[Queersetti]

People/organizations fuck up, then everybody else looks the other way while they scramble to cover their own asses, even if it's pointing fingers in other directions. That's all. It's normal human behavior.


Lyndon Johnson, The Communists, the Cubans, the CIA, the FBI, the Joint chiefs of staff, the Secret Service , the Dallas police and the Mafia did not suddenly all put aside their blood-feuds and work together like never before to prevent the pending establishment of Utopia in the USA , while staying below the radar of the President, his adoring press, and the Attorney General.

Yep, that was pretty much my original premise.

 

[Que]

Yep, that was pretty much my original premise.

I saw an interesting theory the other day that Oswald acted alone and fired two bullets. The fatal shot in this scenario came from an accidental discharge of a rifle in the car following as they brought out a rifle to return fire to Oswald.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

I saw an interesting theory the other day that Oswald acted alone and fired two bullets. The fatal shot in this scenario came from an accidental discharge of a rifle in the car following as they brought out a rifle to return fire to Oswald.

A total bullshit fantasy that was discredited years ago.

No eyewitness on the scene ever alleged such an event. Two critically significant eyewitnesses -- JFK aides Kenneth O'Donnell and Dave Powers -- were sitting inside the Secret Service follow-up car just in front of Special Agent George Hickey who allegedly accidentally discharged an AR-15 automatic rifle. Had ANY shots been fired from that vehicle, especially one killing the President, O'Donnell and Powers could not have failed to notice it.

Complete nonsense, which is typical of most JFK conspiracy theories.

 

[Que]

A total bullshit fantasy that was discredited years ago.

No eyewitness on the scene ever alleged such an event. Two critically significant eyewitnesses -- JFK aides Kenneth O'Donnell and Dave Powers -- were sitting inside the Secret Service follow-up car just in front of Special Agent George Hickey who allegedly accidentally discharged an AR-15 automatic rifle. Had ANY shots been fired from that vehicle, especially one killing the President, O'Donnell and Powers could not have failed to notice it.

Complete nonsense, which is typical of most JFK conspiracy theories.

Probably. The start of such a conspiracy though is that the Secret Service would have been the ones to cover-up out of embarrassment.

I think the Secret Service was embarrassed, but likely at failing to stop the assassination attempt.

Then I was watching another one recommended by Netflix and was 15 minutes in before I realized it was a fictional docu-drama. Dammit. Hate that. I loved one such fake though, "Thief" I think it was called?

 

[Queersetti]

What ever happened to BlackShanglan?

 

[Colonel Hogan]

Probably. The start of such a conspiracy though is that the Secret Service would have been the ones to cover-up out of embarrassment.

I think the Secret Service was embarrassed, but likely at failing to stop the assassination attempt.

Then I was watching another one recommended by Netflix and was 15 minutes in before I realized it was a fictional docu-drama. Dammit. Hate that. I loved one such fake though, "Thief" I think it was called?

You've inadvertently raised the most important point that far too many conspiracy believers fail to grasp -- namely that some of the motivations and explanations used to explain these whack-nut theories are crazier than the theory itself.

In the present case, if a single Secret Service agent inadvertently discharged a weapon killing the President, that agent and most likely that agent alone might well be guilty of negligent homicide. So can anyone with a firm grip on reality believe that an entire agency and every member of it participating in any cover-up would willfully commit the additional crime of obstruction of justice to simply avoid the discomfort of embarrassment?

And then, of course, we run into the suggestion that maybe the rank and file agents were ordered to do so by their superiors. This is one of the most popular post-assassination conspiracy fallacies offered in support of the most slanderous speculations. Its adherents are apparently unaware that there is no such thing as a legally permissible order, either in the military or civilian life, by which a superior officer or higher authority can compel a subordinate to commit a crime.

There may be people stupid enough to issue such orders and there may even be isolated individuals stupid enough to follow them, but if exposed and brought to trail, such idiots would find that their stupidity is a woefully inadequate defense.

Finally, the ridiculously broad population supposedly given such orders only increases the likelihood of someone stepping forward and saying, "Hey, I would have gladly taken a bullet for the President, but if you think I'm going to prison because numbnuts over here could not control his weapon at the height of a crisis for which we were all supposedly trained, you are out of you're ever loving mind."

 

[Que]

True.

the weirdest thing about the whole event in my mind though is how many mistakes seem to have been made with evidence and the chain of evidence on likely the highest profile murder of the 20th century.

Maybe standards were less defined and adhered to in 1963?

Also I would be suspicious but only mildly so if Oswald were found to have hung himself in his cell. But perp-walking the most infamous man since Boothe and having him conveniently assassinated on camera was hard to imagine.

 

[Disgustipated]

Are you trying to be funny?

Because you just sound like a fucking dick to me.

You're a lesbian. .. How the fuck would you know what a *fucking dick* sounds like? Also, you're a stupid jealous bitch.

 

[RobDownSouth]

You're a lesbian. .. How the fuck would you know what a *fucking dick* sounds like? Also, you're a stupid jealous bitch.

She sounds conflicted.

:nods:

 

[Queersetti]

True.

the weirdest thing about the whole event in my mind though is how many mistakes seem to have been made with evidence and the chain of evidence on likely the highest profile murder of the 20th century.

Maybe standards were less defined and adhered to in 1963?

Also I would be suspicious but only mildly so if Oswald were found to have hung himself in his cell. But perp-walking the most infamous man since Boothe and having him conveniently assassinated on camera was hard to imagine.

Remember that in 1963, assassinating the president was not a federal crime. So there was quite a jurisdictional clusterfuck between the Secret Service, the FBI, the Dallas PD, etc.

 

[Beco]

Fucking Byron. He never told me who killed Kennedy.

It was you and me.....

 

[Colonel Hogan]

Remember that in 1963, assassinating the president was not a federal crime. So there was quite a jurisdictional clusterfuck between the Secret Service, the FBI, the Dallas PD, etc.

This, too. ^^^^^^

Query also hit another nerve with respect to lesser standards in 1963; not so much with respect to rules relating to a proper chain of evidence, but certainly with regard to the refinement of certain Constitutional rights within criminal due process.

SCOTUS decided the landmark case of Gideon v. Wainwright establishing the right of court appointed counsel in March of 1963, only eight months before the assassination.

Three months later in Rideau v. Louisiana, the Court held for the first time that a lower court's failure to grant a change of venue in the face of repeated televised broadcasts of the defendant's confession could be held to be presumptively prejudicial, thus relieving the defense of the burden to specifically demonstrate that juror bias had actually occurred as a result of the publicity.

When I watch the old TV clips of hundreds of reporters clogging the halls of the DPD, and Oswald being paraded out for a late night "press conference" (whether he had requested the forum or not), I find myself wondering if he could have gotten a fair trial if he had ever been brought before the bar.

Finally, Dallas police never gave Oswald a Miranda warning, because the case of Miranda v. Arizona would not come before the Supreme Court until 1966.

Those were the days, my friends...

 

[snugglestruggle]

The Greys did it.