Punctuating speech

[Carl East]

For me, puntuation was the hardest part of writing. I took so long to understand the various nuances concerning puntuation, that I very nearly gave up writing.

I think my strongest point in writing though has to be my spelling. I very rarely have to check my stories for spelling mistakes more than once, though sometimes I'll notice a word that would have sounded better being replaced with an alternative.

Now blow me a kiss Lou and I can go to bed with a smile on my face.

Carl

 

[CharleyH]

I've just noticed this in the published authors thread:

"I swore not to harm you." He grinned. "I never said I wouldn't seduce you."

In a thread in the Eds Forum, Dr M asks

I want to see if I can get this straight.

A. “He acted alone,” he said. “But someone helped him escape.”

but

B. “He acted alone.” He turned to the butler accusingly, “but someone helped him escape.”

or

C. “He acted alone.” He turned to the butler accusingly. “But someone helped him escape.”

or what? What combination of commas, periods, and capitalization is correct?

---dr.M.



Now, I assumed Snooper was right with his answer:

“He acted alone,” he said, “but someone helped him escape.”

But now I'm not so sure. Does anybody here know if there's an adehered to convention, or can full-stops replace commas? Is it more of a stylistic choice? I notice drM often uses full-stops, and his writing is very good.

Thinking about changing my style, dl.

I do recall almost a year ago having this agrument with a number of people. A and B is correct. C is completely incorrect.

 

[Remec]

I was on a little crusade about this, but I've abandoned it. I think the covention of always using a comma at the close of a bit of spreech in front of an attributive (a "he said" or "she said") is inconsistent with other conventions of grammar. For example, it's perfectly fine to write "Hello!" he said. or "Hello?" he called. and these stops are just as full as the stop from a period. So it seems like it should be acceptable to write "Hello." he said. At least it seems that way to me.
---dr.M.

I'm still working through this thread of posts, so excuse me if anyone else has mentioned this, but it would seem to me that the example of "Hello." he said. strikes some people as less correct than "Hello," he said. because "Hello" is an interjective. So, even if nothing follows it, because it wasn't said with emphasis, it seems fine to end it with a comma as opposed to the period.

(Alright, where's my Harcourt?<g>)

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: re

Actually, just realised, the speech markless parts are where the protagonist is remembering conversations, in the present tense. Perhaps you need to be a skilful writer to pull off such flagrant variations of conventional puntuation.

There is another thread about on punctuating thoughts. What you describe is one of the "official" ruling on punctuating thoughts -- i.e. don't punctuate them in any special way. I think it's a concession to the difficulty in adding Italics to HTML documents reliably -- especially when converted from ASCII text submissions.

In years past, the rule was italicize thoughts and there was little question or disagreement until the advent of electronic transmission standards like Morse Code and ASCII Text which don't make any provision for Italics although they do define the double and single quotation marks.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I'm still working through this thread of posts, so excuse me if anyone else has mentioned this, but it would seem to me that the example of "Hello." he said. strikes some people as less correct than "Hello," he said. because "Hello" is an interjective. So, even if nothing follows it, because it wasn't said with emphasis, it seems fine to end it with a comma as opposed to the period.

(Alright, where's my Harcourt?<g>)

I have to agree with Remec on this one. "Hello" can stand on its own as a complete sentence, especially in dialogue, but "he said" almost never can. If I walk into the house and I want to know if anybody is home I might say "Hello?" If the phone rings at 3:00AM, waking me up, I might pick up the phone and say "Hello!!" Normally, I just say "Hello".

After a long time, John answered the door. "Good morning, John," I said.

"Hello."

"Well, aren't you going to let me in?"

I opened the door and stared at the strange person on the doorstep.

"Hello," he said.

"John? Is that you?"

 

[snooper]

Re: Re: Punctuating speech

Yes, Snooper was right.

OF COURSE Snooper was right!

 

[NoJo]

I make it

"He turned to the butler accusingly," he acted alone. But someone helped him. "To escape!" He said.

 

[Guest]

I make it

"He turned to the butler accusingly," he acted alone. But someone helped him. "To escape!" He said.

Yes, but you don't think like us mortal folk.

Snooper:

Lou

 

[Guest]

"He turned to the butler accusingly," he acted alone. But someone helped him. "To escape!" He said.

Joe, the comma after 'accusingly' should be a semi-colon, otherwise "he acted alone" does not make sense. After 'escape!' he could be lower-case, or not.

Perdita

 

[NoJo]

I was using "acted" to mean "said". He said, alone. After an exclamation point! It's customary to capitalize, I think.

Lou, thanks for the rules - I've always been confused by them. (I used to be a computer programmer, so I can't read or rite proper).

I'm reminded of the eleven "had"s:

Bill in his grammar exam wrote "I had a good time", while John wrote "I had had a good time."

John, where bill had had "had", had had "had had". "Had had" had had more marks from the teacher.

 

[Guest]

I was using "acted" to mean "said". He said, alone. After an exclamation point! It's customary to capitalize, I think.

Lou, thanks for the rules - I've always been confused by them. (I used to be a computer programmer, so I can't read or rite proper).

I'm reminded of the eleven "had"s:

Bill in his grammar exam wrote "I had a good time", while John wrote "I had had a good time."

John, where bill had had "had", had had "had had". "Had had" had had more marks from the teacher.

Sorry to be pedantic, but you shouldn't capitalize after a exclamation mark (when used at the end of dialogue, that is).

Glad my rules helped! I can't make head nor tail of them myself.

And, now I have a headache. That "had" sentence isn't easy to decipher.

Lou

 

[dirtylover]

re

Sorry, more help please. Is this right, or am I too keen on my commas again?

“You know elongated life span won’t work on the societal level,” he drank deeply from his pint and the froth stuck to the beard on his upper lip, “I mean, we have far too many people as it is, without the ones that are here sticking around for even longer.”

“Yes, but imagine the health benefits, and the savings to the health service. So many ailments are related to old age, and stopping the body aging would prevent them,” Kate had thought about this a lot, and it worried her more than she let on.

--------------------

I love commas, I do

(Lou - I find you the easiest to understand. I think that everybody else might be purposefully trying to confuse me)

 

[Linbido]

Re: re

Sorry, more help please. Is this right, or am I too keen on my commas again?

“You know elongated life span won’t work on the societal level,” he drank deeply from his pint and the froth stuck to the beard on his upper lip, “I mean, we have far too many people as it is, without the ones that are here sticking around for even longer.”

“Yes, but imagine the health benefits, and the savings to the health service. So many ailments are related to old age, and stopping the body aging would prevent them,” Kate had thought about this a lot, and it worried her more than she let on.

First thing I spotted. He didn't drink that sentence from the pint, did he? (Although it's quite a poetic way of putting it - mind if I store it for future use?) No "he said" or anything even close, but a separate action. Thus, omit the comma from the quotation, and start a new sentence. Maybe even a new paragraph?

“You know elongated life span won’t work on the societal level.” He drank deeply from his pint and the froth stuck to the beard on his upper lip. “I mean, we have far too many people as it is, without the ones that are here sticking around for even longer.”

“Yes, but imagine the health benefits, and the savings to the health service. So many ailments are related to old age, and stopping the body aging would prevent them.”

Kate had thought about this a lot, and it worried her more than she let on.

But remember, I was the one who until reading this thread wrote:
"Hello." he said.
So I might be totally off.

 

[Carl East]

Re: Re: re

"So many ailments are related to old age, and stopping the body aging would prevent them.”

Kate had thought about this a lot, and it worried her more than she let on.[/i]

Correct me if I'm wrong (anyone) but placing a comma next to an "And" is something I never do. Or for that matter start a sentence with an "And" I always thought it was wrong.

Am I right here or is this acceptable?

Carl

 

[Linbido]

Re: Re: Re: re

Correct me if I'm wrong (anyone) but placing a comma next to an "And" is something I never do. Or for that matter start a sentence with an "And" I always thought it was wrong.

Am I right here or is this acceptable?

Carl

Commas are IMUO (in my uneducated opinion)for separating notions when they are not separated with an 'and'.

But I do start sentences with 'and' sometimes. And with but. Probably not correct, but it gives the text a certain one-liner punch that I like, the right tempo of narration pauses. Correct or not, call it what you will. I call it poetic grammar adjustment. I guess a comma before an 'and' can indicate the same thing.

 

[dirtylover]

re

Thanks guys. Yeah, the way you wrote is better Lin If I carry on like this I might just get everybody else on lit to writer my story for me.

Carl - -I think strictly you're right with the 'and' issue, but I think it is generally acceptable to start sentences with 'and' or to place a comma before 'and'.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: re

Correct me if I'm wrong (anyone) but placing a comma next to an "And" is something I never do. Or for that matter start a sentence with an "And" I always thought it was wrong.

This is how I recall learning it; I'm sure there are citations somewhere.

A comma after "and" indicates the next subject is to be differentiated from those (or that) preceding it. No comma means it goes with the other subjects. E.g.,

For breakfast I love tea, bacon and eggs, and pancakes.

I love bacon, eggs, tea and toast for breakfast.

He gave me jewelry, flowers, a house, and the fucking clap.

He gave me a rose, ten bucks and the door.

Hope that makes sense, P.

Edited to add better explanation:

Use a comma to separate the elements in a series (three or more things), including the last two. "He hit the ball, dropped the bat, and ran to first base." You may have learned that the comma before the "and" is unnecessary, which is fine if you're in control of things. However, there are situations in which, if you don't use this comma (especially when the list is complex or lengthy), these last two items in the list will try to glom together (like macaroni and cheese). Using a comma between all the items in a series, including the last two, avoids this problem. This last comma—the one between the word "and" and the preceding word—is often called the serial comma or the Oxford comma. In newspaper writing, incidentally, you will seldom find a serial comma, but that is not necessarily a sign that it should be omitted in academic prose.

Here's the citation.

 

[snooper]

Re: Re: Re: re

Correct me if I'm wrong (anyone) but placing a comma next to an "And" is something I never do. Or for that matter start a sentence with an "And" I always thought it was wrong.

Am I right here or is this acceptable?

Carl

Yes and no.

Comma next to and:
This is OK if it is needed: He picked up the bread and butter, and walked across the room. The voice pauses as you read that aloud, so a comma has the same effect and is needed for the same reason, namely that the second "and" connects the two verbs, where the first one connects the nouns surrounding it. Compare with: He picked up the bread and walked across the room.

And starting sentences with conjunctions:
In general this is considered wrong in literature. In speech we do it, and journalese does it, but it is considered unfortunate (to say the least) in literature; it is even worse to start a new paragraph like that.

 

[Carl East]

Re: Re: Re: Re: re

He picked up the bread and butter, and walked across the room.

Compare with: He picked up the bread and walked across the room.

Now to me 'He picked up the bread and butter and walked across the room' doesn't sound or feel any different than when you use a comma. So is it just a matter of taste, or is it a mistake to omit the comma?

Carl

Thx in advance.

 

[damppanties]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: re

Now to me 'He picked up the bread and butter and walked across the room' doesn't sound or feel any different than when you use a comma. So is it just a matter of taste, or is it a mistake to omit the comma?

Carl

Thx in advance.

An entirely different take from a person who doesn't know much grammar shmammar.

I usually insert commas when I need to pause while speaking the sentence out loud and to me 'He picked up the bread and butter, and walked acroos the room' sounds much better than a one breath 'He picked up the bread and butter and walked across the room'.

Hi Carl, how are you?

 

[Carl East]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: re

Hi Carl, how are you?

I'm fine thanks gorgeous. Hope all is well for you.

Carl

ps I don't consider that sentence worthy of a pause, it's really not that long.

 

[damppanties]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: re

I'm fine thanks gorgeous. Hope all is well for you.

Carl

ps I don't consider that sentence worthy of a pause, it's really not that long.

Good. Yeah. All is well.

It's not about length. It's about comfort while saying it out loud, whether you spit it out in one breath or pause where necessary.

 

[dirtylover]

re

Thanks guys.

I've also been sent a link by Champagne to a pretty good website:

punctuation stuff

P.- the serial comma? That's a new one on me. You are the doyen of knowledge.

 

[Guest]

Re: re

P.- the serial comma? That's a new one on me. You are the doyen of knowledge.

I'm not, but it is doyenne. Thanks for the teeny tiny rose. P.

 

[Uther_Pendragon]

We really need quotation marks, AKA inverted commas, to
understand what these sentences mean. _E.g._
"He acted alone," he said, "but someone helped him escape."
"He acted alone," he said, but someone helped him escape.
Are both gammatically valid. In the first sentence, the
escapee is the person acting alone; in the second sentence
the escpaee is the person reporting that the other acted
alone.