Power games... who needs them?

[Alitaptap]

I truly hate the stories where already in like a third paragraph, somebody relinquishes all power and from that moment on, the story doesn't have anywhere to go, except to show us how it looks when you relinquish all power...

Very true. I think because it quite simply doesn’t feel true at all. I think we can never truly relinquish all power while alive. Even in submission, you hold the power. When you continue to say yes (or do not choose at all), you give this power to another. The greatest power is resistance. It forces change. Histories prove that even subjugated people (those who supposedly have no agency) shift these power imbalances eventually. Proving that agency is inherent, and can never be taken by another completely, and human beings are so resilient that they find more and more creative ways to resist power structures. And now back to sex

Your thoughts remind me of the often quoted/controversial words of Oscar Wilde:

“Everything in the world is about sex except sex. Sex is about power."

 

[nice90sguy]

Never knew about that quote from Oscar Wilde! He's basically making the point I've been making in this thread -- and doing it with typical Wildean terseness and wit.

 

[nice90sguy]

Even in submission, you hold the power.

This fact is clear to anyone who's "played" with BDSM.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Even in submission, you hold the power.

This fact is clear to anyone who's "played" with BDSM.

This is a dangerous myth. Ideally yeah, the dominant will be looking out for the sub and checking in with them and ensuring they aren't pushed beyond their physical or emotional limits.

But the truth is that as soon as any bondage is involved, or just lulling someone into subspace and combining that with some positional or physical strength, the submissive has become powerless, and the top or dom could very easily abuse that power.

Which happens horribly frequently. Every kink community knows That Guy, who keeps trying to lure the new pretty subs. And then subjects clubs to legal threats when they ban him, etc.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

This is a dangerous myth. Ideally yeah, the dominant will be looking out for the sub and checking in with them and ensuring they aren't pushed beyond their physical or emotional limits.

But the truth is that as soon as any bondage is involved, or just lulling someone into subspace and combining that with some positional or physical strength, the submissive has become powerless, and the top or dom could very easily abuse that power.

Which happens horribly frequently. Every kink community knows That Guy, who keeps trying to lure the new pretty subs. And then subjects clubs to legal threats when they ban him, etc.

Stories and fantasies aside, any real life d/s relationship that is not based on love and mutual agreement is potentially very problematic. I agree with what you said, but it doesn't even have to be about bondage. Any kind of dependence (emotional/economical) or just simple blackmail with some embarrassing evidence works just the same, or even better.
I think they were referring to the fact that when its done in a safe environment, between adults who trust and care for each other, a sub can hold a lot of power, sometimes more than the dom, as counterintuitive as that sounds

 

[Lifestyle66]

This is a dangerous myth. Ideally yeah, the dominant will be looking out for the sub and checking in with them and ensuring they aren't pushed beyond their physical or emotional limits.

But the truth is that as soon as any bondage is involved, or just lulling someone into subspace and combining that with some positional or physical strength, the submissive has become powerless, and the top or dom could very easily abuse that power.

Which happens horribly frequently. Every kink community knows That Guy, who keeps trying to lure the new pretty subs. And then subjects clubs to legal threats when they ban him, etc.

Except in cases of very real N/C rape, even in kink communities, subs make a choice when they submit to any particular dom. "That Guy" only gets into that position when the "new pretty sub" makes the choice to allow him to do so.

Arguments such as "well, she didn't KNOW he was like that" sound a little hollow. That's like a teenage girl who leaves home to be with the "bad boy" her parents disapprove of. She was told and decided her parents were merely ignorant, so she made her own choices. Some people make bad choices. But they had the power to make their choice.

Even some very real N/C rape cases are the result of bad choices
"What were you thinking walking alone down the dark street at 3 am in that part of town?"
"I have a RIGHT to be there!"
"Well, how did that work out for you?"

Many people are victims of their own choosing.

 

[lovecraft68]

Except in cases of very real N/C rape, even in kink communities, subs make a choice when they submit to any particular dom. "That Guy" only gets into that position when the "new pretty sub" makes the choice to allow him to do so.

Arguments such as "well, she didn't KNOW he was like that" sound a little hollow. That's like a teenage girl who leaves home to be with the "bad boy" her parents disapprove of. She was told and decided her parents were merely ignorant, so she made her own choices. Some people make bad choices. But they had the power to make their choice.

Even some very real N/C rape cases are the result of bad choices
"What were you thinking walking alone down the dark street at 3 am in that part of town?"
"I have a RIGHT to be there!"
"Well, how did that work out for you?"

Many people are victims of their own choosing.

I'm going to make this simple.
That bullshit thinking is why so many women are afraid to come forward.
I've been involved in the BDSM lifestyle for decades.
I've also been a volunteer for a shelter for battered women and domestic violence causes.
You're so wrong its disgusting on every level.
Women can be raped within the marriage let alone a woman getting duped by a twisted make believe cyber dom.
Stick to hotwife and swinging and don't talk about what you don't know.

 

[lovecraft68]

Just going to mention that within the confines of the taboo category I don't think a lot of people see mom son dad daughter as power games. Its an unbalanced relationship, a child, even as an adult, has been raised to respect and obey their parents. Even as lovers in these fantasy stories that would exist.

There is a double standard oft discussed where no one seems concerned with a mother coming onto her son. Probably due to the idea that there's worse things than a hot woman coming onto to you, or men can't be forced.

But when it comes to father/daughter many of us make the daughter the aggressor because if not, no matter how its written there is a rapey vibe to it if the father is the one instigating the sex, fair or not, its a real thing.

Now in real life cases, which are usually twisted and something has to be wrong somewhere, of incest, I could see siblings being involved. Curiosity etc...but also even if one is slightly older we're talking peers, equals, sibs can be friends, partners in crime, confidants, sparring partners, but its usually pretty level.

But in real life there is no situation where a parent and adult child could be seen as equal and okay. End of the day-in real life-you run into the parent should no better, and its nothing short of abusing said position, whether its intentional or not.

As always when something like this comes up, there's some good points and thoughts from people who understand. Too bad we ultimately get the bitch deserved it crowd blundering in.

This would be a thread better suited to the BDSM forum, although there's a few of those dinks there too, but you'll get a lot more experienced responses as well.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I'm going to make this simple.
That bullshit thinking is why so many women are afraid to come forward.
I've been involved in the BDSM lifestyle for decades.
I've also been a volunteer for a shelter for battered women and domestic violence causes.
You're so wrong its disgusting on every level.
Women can be raped within the marriage let alone a woman getting duped by a twisted make believe cyber dom.
Stick to hotwife and swinging and don't talk about what you don't know.

You should take heart in the very tagline you use in your profile here: "Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep"

Do you even know what it means? CHOOSE to not be a sheep!

 

[Lifestyle66]

It's not my tagline, and I don't agree at all with your conclusion. A sheep is a sheep is a sheep. A sheep pretending to be a wolf is just sad, and most likely to get hurt.

I'm more of the opinion that sentient beings make choices. Only those less evolved are stuck as victims living in an environment against their will.

Make better choices.

 

[lovecraft68]

You should take heart in the very tagline you use in your profile here: "Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep"

Do you even know what it means? CHOOSE to not be a sheep!

Sheep stand by and let things slide, Wolves bare their teeth and don't back down. Or as has been made popular of late the expression silence is complicit. To not point out your crap is to say its okay.

Your post blamed women(or in some cases men as well) for their own rape. Your post did nothing to blame the person that could do something like that "I conned them, so I have the right to hurt them."

That, you're okay with.

There is a difference between an opinion and the spreading of dangerous misinformation. Understand that difference?

Or, to use your example, you chose to show your true colors. I chose to make you pay for your ignorance.

Guess you get what you deserve, right?

 

[Lifestyle66]

Sheep stand by and let things slide, Wolves bare their teeth and don't back down. Or as has been made popular of late the expression silence is complicit. To not point out your crap is to say its okay.

Your post blamed women(or in some cases men as well) for their own rape. Your post did nothing to blame the person that could do something like that "I conned them, so I have the right to hurt them."

That, you're okay with.

There is a difference between an opinion and the spreading of dangerous misinformation. Understand that difference?

Or, to use your example, you chose to show your true colors. I chose to make you pay for your ignorance.

Guess you get what you deserve, right?

In those bad parts of town, even the wolves there are doing what they felt they needed to survive.

Your ignorance is in seeing everyone as a victim without any choices. If you really cared, you would delve deeper into their past to find when they made the first bad choice which led them down that path.

In KQ's case of "That Guy", for whatever reason, the "new pretty face" decides to submit, starting down that bad path.

In my stories, the MC recognizes that even those during his childhood who belittled him and ostracized him did so due to living with the demons of their own pasts. At some point, sentient beings decide to break the cycle, while most remain sheep.

 

[lovecraft68]

When Wilde said sex is about power, he didn't mean BDSM in the sense you know today. That term didn't exist back then. Being the genius that he was, this epigram is layered with many meanings. One of them is the war between the sexes and the power given to those who control the sexual graces – the women. Wilde, like many homosexual geniuses of the late 19th century (Nietzsche for example), was a misogynist who spoke of women with disdain that would be unthinkable today.

Actually Marquis De Sade and Baron Sacher Von Masoch were the founders of Sado Masochism long before Wilde, but what they created was pretty much an excuse to abuse people based on the premise(and a true one) some people get off on pain and degradation.

This was well before BDSM truly evolved into what it is now and although I'm simplifying, it was when the three rules of safe sane and consensual came about. Now even then, those first two are fluid. My safe and sane may not be yours, but consent is inflexible. There is a school of abusers out there trying to say consent is not needed, but as Ruben said, tell that to the law.

The easy test of whether someone gets it or not is the question who is in control, dom or sub. If the answer is Dom, move along. The sub sets the limits within which the Dom performs, this is in a real life scenario of course not the trash BDSM story section here which has devolved mostly into Non con that people don't want to call non con.

My pet theory is that many misogynists are that way on the surface because within them they don't mind the woman having the power, but because of upbringing they can't say that so its like the religious zealot condemning sin and committing them in his own home.

Many people are not comfortable with their own feelings and it leads to a lot of projection.

 

[lovecraft68]

In those bad parts of town, even the wolves there are doing what they felt they needed to survive.

Your ignorance is in seeing everyone as a victim without any choices. If you really cared, you would delve deeper into their past to find when they made the first bad choice which led them down that path.

In KQ's case of "That Guy", for whatever reason, the "new pretty face" decides to submit, starting down that bad path.

In my stories, the MC recognizes that even those during his childhood who belittled him and ostracized him did so due to living with the demons of their own pasts. At some point, sentient beings decide to break the cycle, while most remain sheep.

I'm from the bad part of town.

Just stop justifying. You're a rape excuser. Duly noted and too late to back track.

Last reply you get from me.

I hope to hell this never happens but if you ever find out someone close to you was assaulted and never came forward for fear of slut shaming and judgment, know you're part of the reason for that.

Merry Christmas and have a nice life

 

[nice90sguy]

When Wilde said sex is about power, he didn't mean BDSM in the sense you know today. That term didn't exist back then. Being the genius that he was, this epigram is layered with many meanings. One of them is the war between the sexes and the power given to those who control the sexual graces – the women. Wilde, like many homosexual geniuses of the late 19th century (Nietzsche for example), was a misogynist who spoke of women with disdain that would be unthinkable today.

I think Wilde himself was well aware of this, not so much because of his relationships with women, but with the boys he went with. Lots of power game opportunities there, when you're a charming, rich successful queer and have a love that cannot be named.


I somehow doubt that Wilde was misogynistic.

 

[nice90sguy]

People on this thread seem to have a problem distinguishing abuse of power with exercise of power. It's kind of easy to tell the difference for most people.

I'm usually for the underdog, which is why I love a bit of a femdom.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I'm from the bad part of town.

Just stop justifying. You're a rape excuser. Duly noted and too late to back track.

Last reply you get from me.

I hope to hell this never happens but if you ever find out someone close to you was assaulted and never came forward for fear of slut shaming and judgment, know you're part of the reason for that.

Merry Christmas and have a nice life

You said in the previous post "Many people are not comfortable with their own feelings and it leads to a lot of projection."

Take THAT to heart! Many people are not comfortable with their feelings of the own choices, and project that they had no choice! And when YOU reinforce that ignorance of past bad decisions, YOU are part of the reason more continue to be abused.

I wrote one chapter about past abuse ("Lifestyle Ch. 11 - Demons Past"). In that, you would see where at one point, she almost traded one bad situation for a different bad demon. But it all made her stronger.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Oh, and if you want to post in the BDSM category on Lit, you better make sure the dom is male...

I'll trust your word for it, although I do intend to test your theory sooner or later with a proper femdom story . Myself, I like d/s ideas in sex very much, as they can bring flavor and imagination into a sexual relationship, although my own preference extends only to femdom ones. Despite what some people claim, women are nowhere near to be equal in today's world, even in the West and especially not in other parts of the world. Therefore, I like the idea of them being in charge when it comes to sex at least.
On the other topic, I think d/s relationships can easily be abused, maybe even more so than any other type of sexual relationship. I do believe there are numerous victims, mostly young women, who get abused in such relationships, no matter if they enter the relationship willingly or not. The specifics of the power imbalance just make it easier for some asshole to abuse it to no end, as the submissive desire and the existing power disbalance makes it harder for the victim to resist. So, in my opinion, its place is only in a healthy and loving relationship, as a means to add flare and imagination to the sex life.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I'm more of the opinion that sentient beings make choices. Only those less evolved are stuck as victims living in an environment against their will.

Make better choices.

Your claim is a slippery slope. No one can claim they made good choices through all their life, yet women, especially young women tend to pay much more dearly for their choices, because that is how our fucked up world works. It really doesn't excuse the motherfuckers who exploited their "choice" and made them pay for it. My line of work keeps me in touch with young women barely stepping into adulthood, and I can guarantee you that they make so many bad choices. Should they all suffer tremendously for it? Let's not even start talking about situations where they don't really have any sensible choice.

 

[nice90sguy]

Oh, and if you want to post in the BDSM category on Lit, you better make sure the dom is male...

That's just not true. Some popular femdom stories there.

I think d/s relationships can easily be abused

Yes, because of complicity.

And the (original childhood) abuse itself becomes fetishized -- a stand-in for love.

 

[SimonDoom]

These conversations tend to go off the rails when people fail to distinguish the real world from the fantasy Literotica sex story world. They're not the same thing, and the latter isn't bound by the former.

If I were a psychologist doing studies or writing articles about consensual adult incest I'd be very sensitive to power dynamics and the probability of inequality. I don't really know anything about the subject, despite some desultory online efforts at self-education, and from my limited efforts at gathering information I haven't found much, presumably because those who participate are loath to come forward and discuss it. It seems rather silly to me for anyone here to say they "know" what it's like in the real world because my guess is almost everyone here is in the same boat I am and has such a limited base of knowledge on the subject that they have no grounds for making universal statements about consensual adult incest of any kind.

In any event, I feel mostly unconstrained by such concerns in my stories. In my adult/child incest stories I tend to downplay power elements and rely more upon the taboo. In my stories the child is usually, but not always, the aggressor, which tends to mitigate somewhat icky concerns about the abuse of power. I think many other incest writers handle things the same way.

That's somewhat interesting, isn't it? People enjoy power imbalance/borderline non-con stories, and they enjoy incest/taboo stories, but they tend not to like to see those two kinks mixed. I've never thought about writing a story about a 40-something father trying to seduce a reluctant 20-something daughter. I think that would be difficult to write.

 

[Dr_Strabismus]

I don't need power games right now. What I need are power cables, have to set up the disco lights and turntables. Gotta blast that Bing Crosby at 400 W.

 

[Dr_Strabismus]

Scuse that last blurt, broke out the McCallan's a little early.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Even some very real N/C rape cases are the result of bad choices

Raping somebody is always a bad choice.

 

[Alitaptap]

This is a dangerous myth. Ideally yeah, the dominant will be looking out for the sub and checking in with them and ensuring they aren't pushed beyond their physical or emotional limits.

But the truth is that as soon as any bondage is involved, or just lulling someone into subspace and combining that with some positional or physical strength, the submissive has become powerless, and the top or dom could very easily abuse that power.

Which happens horribly frequently. Every kink community knows That Guy, who keeps trying to lure the new pretty subs. And then subjects clubs to legal threats when they ban him, etc.

Hi @Kumquatqueen , I think you’re right. I think I failed to explain what my statement meant and how this could be dangerous if interpreted by rapists/abusers/criminals as some sort of invitation/permission to rape/harm someone (physically/mentally/emotionally/spiritually).

For me, rape and non-consent have nothing to do with sex or even submission. It has nothing to do with dominance or power games. Rape/Non-Consent is violence, full-stop. And nothing in this world can ever make that right.

My statements came from a space of healthy relationships, without thinking of the mindsets of abusers and rapists, since for me, those are two distinctly separate things. What I find interesting is when those in vulnerable positions realize their inherent power and wield it in order to live the lives they want to live. And I see your point in saying many relationships especially d/s, have a potential for abuse and exploitation, and it’s true that we need to be constantly vigilant that neither we or those we love are ever put in those kinds of situations.

Of course, I distinguish between violence and non-consent fantasies/consensual non-consent role play which for me is Play, and between healthy fully consenting adults, can be quite fun.

But going back to what you were saying, yes, rape/non-consent/abuse of any kind is violence. And yes, violence is possible between friends, strangers, vanilla, d/s relationships, and marriages, and we must make sure we safeguard and protect each other from this.