PoV Hopping

[SimonDoom]

It has to be either one or the other. Game of Thrones has a third person narrator who isn't omniscient, which is an important distinction.

I had always understood "limited omniscient" to be a point of view in which the narrator is omniscient about the thoughts and motivations of a particular character, as distinguished from third person objective or third person non-omniscient, in which the narrator merely describes external action like a reporter without getting into the heads of any characters. From what I can tell there is still some use that corresponds to this understanding, but your use of the terms appears to be much more common.

 

[KindofHere]

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[KeithD]

I had always understood "limited omniscient" to be a point of view in which the narrator is omniscient about the thoughts and motivations of a particular character, as distinguished from third person objective or third person non-omniscient, in which the narrator merely describes external action like a reporter without getting into the heads of any characters. From what I can tell there is still some use that corresponds to this understanding, but your use of the terms appears to be much more common.

I don't think I've ever heard of "limited omniscient." "Limited" in my understanding is that the reader is going to get the perspective from only one character (or narrator--but the narrator can be considered a character). "Omniscient" to me means the narrator knows all character thoughts and motivations of the characters and will give them, as appropriate. It's pretty much a third-person POV. I don't see that it could be limited if it was going to give the perspective of more than one.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I like this guy's opinion on Head Hopping vs Omniscient.

It's a short blog entry, but like anything in writing where there are multiple opinions, you have to go with the one that appeals to you.

"Because in a romance novel, the relationship is the most important character in the story."


I'm with him.

 

[KindofHere]

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[SimonDoom]

I don't think I've ever heard of "limited omniscient." "Limited" in my understanding is that the reader is going to get the perspective from only one character (or narrator--but the narrator can be considered a character). "Omniscient" to me means the narrator knows all character thoughts and motivations of the characters and will give them, as appropriate. It's pretty much a third-person POV. I don't see that it could be limited if it was going to give the perspective of more than one.

I searched for it via Google. There are some examples of the usage I referred to, but not many, and your use and AliceRosaleen's use of the terms is much more common. I do recall learning "limited omniscient" from a teacher a long time ago, but the usage doesn't appear to be common at all. I agree, too, it doesn't really make sense. The correct term for a third person POV that does not enter anybody's head is third person objective.

 

[SimonDoom]

I like this guy's opinion on Head Hopping vs Omniscient.

It's a short blog entry, but like anything in writing where there are multiple opinions, you have to go with the one that appeals to you.

I think a legitimate case can be made for some sex scenes for revealing the thoughts of both participants in the sex while it's happening. You can only do this by getting into the heads of both of them, and thereby risk being accused of head-hopping. In a taboo/incest story, for example, the chances are that both characters are feeling certain emotions for the first time, and are heading toward an experience neither has encountered. Their feelings may be different, as well, and the contrast between their points of view may be a source of tension or dramatic interest.

I did this in my first standalone incest story, Late Night on the Loveseat with Mom, and I felt it worked. Reading over the story more recently, I still feel that way. In a more recent incest story, however, I don't think I handled the POV switching as carefully, as some readers pointed out, and if I did it again I'd eliminate the son's point of view entirely.

It depends on the needs of the story, and also on how it's handled.

 

[KeithD]

I think a legitimate case can be made for some sex scenes for revealing the thoughts of both participants in the sex while it's happening. You can only do this by getting into the heads of both of them, and thereby risk being accused of head-hopping.

I think that can be effective, when maintained, and kept to a shorter work. I think the essential problem with head hopping for a reader is similar to the use of what we see as pseudo-second person. They are tiring to follow and can get irritating. Not what a writer normally wants from the reader.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I think a legitimate case can be made for some sex scenes for revealing the thoughts of both participants in the sex while it's happening. You can only do this by getting into the heads of both of them, and thereby risk being accused of head-hopping. In a taboo/incest story, for example, the chances are that both characters are feeling certain emotions for the first time, and are heading toward an experience neither has encountered. Their feelings may be different, as well, and the contrast between their points of view may be a source of tension or dramatic interest.

I did this in my first standalone incest story, Late Night on the Loveseat with Mom, and I felt it worked. Reading over the story more recently, I still feel that way. In a more recent incest story, however, I don't think I handled the POV switching as carefully, as some readers pointed out, and if I did it again I'd eliminate the son's point of view entirely.

It depends on the needs of the story, and also on how it's handled.

Alvin relished the wet warmth that had enveloped his cock. He continued to move slowly, and the heat seemed to build. Mary had closed her eyes again, and he kissed each eyelid. That made her grin and her grin made his hips pump more urgently. She nestled her head against his neck and wrapped her arms around his back. He reached under her thighs and lifted her legs. She locked her heels over his hips. They were both moving now, pushing urgently against each other.

Mary was making small, whimpering sounds and Alvin was replying with long, low moans. He slowed down, trying to make their union last. Mary squeezed her legs tighter around him. She wanted to pull him ever deeper into herself. She was close to an orgasm, and as soon as he increased his pace again, it surged through her. Alvin felt her gripping him, and his orgasm followed closely behind. Mary came a second time when she felt his body give in to his climax, and again as he slumped against her.

I had no idea that there as any "rule" or even any debate over whether or not you could move from one pov to the other in mid-scene. I just wrote the scene in what seemed a natural way to tell the story.

It works for me. It seems to have worked for my readers.

 

[KeithD]

I had no idea that there as any "rule" or even any debate over whether or not you could move from one pov to the other in mid-scene. I just wrote the scene in what seemed a natural way to tell the story.

It works for me. It seems to have worked for my readers.

Yes, you've posted that already. I don't see that anyone is invoking "rules."

 

[MelissaBaby]

Yes, you've posted that already. I don't see that anyone is invoking "rules."

The linked article is titled "The Official Rules on Head Hopping"

 

[NotWise]

The linked article is titled "The Official Rules on Head Hopping"

But then the guy didn't make any rules.

 

[MelissaBaby]

But then the guy didn't make any rules.

Yes, and I posted that I agree with him.

 

[KeithD]

No one on this thread has suggested there are rules involved. Mostly cautions to be aware of what you're doing in relationship to how you want it to connect with the reader.

 

[Hypoxia]

Basic rule #1: Let your reader always clearly know who is seeing and thinking what.

Basic rule #2: Keep your reader confused when you want to fuck with their head.

Hint #1: Try different POVs and see which works best to deliver your intentions.

Hint #2: Have someone read the shit you wrote to see if it makes any sense.

Basic rule #3: There are no rules, only audiences. Do whatever you want.

 

[SimonDoom]

I had no idea that there as any "rule" or even any debate over whether or not you could move from one pov to the other in mid-scene. I just wrote the scene in what seemed a natural way to tell the story.

It works for me. It seems to have worked for my readers.

I agree that in the excerpt you've provided the narration of two people's thoughts is appropriately handled. I see nothing wrong with it. It's not confusing. Part of the reason for that is that you keep the narration of thoughts in the third person. Getting inside both characters' heads serves a purpose. Seems fine to me.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I agree that in the excerpt you've provided the narration of two people's thoughts is appropriately handled. I see nothing wrong with it. It's not confusing. Part of the reason for that is that you keep the narration of thoughts in the third person. Getting inside both characters' heads serves a purpose. Seems fine to me.

Thank you. I have had very little formal education in writing. So, every once in a while, I'll read a thread here and think, "Ooh, have I been doing this all wrong?" Reading the thoughts of more experienced authors is a great help.

 

[KenNicottii]

I think a legitimate case can be made for some sex scenes for revealing the thoughts of both participants in the sex while it's happening. You can only do this by getting into the heads of both of them, and thereby risk being accused of head-hopping.

... It depends on the needs of the story, and also on how it's handled.

I always thought ‘head-hopping’ was a pejorative term for when it was done poorly. I’ve only written in 3rd person once, due to the requirements of the story. It had to be omniscient as well.

The story, Term Paper Blues, uses the theme of two characters who normally wouldn’t be sexually involved with each other having an unexpected romp. Consequently, there are long passages in the beginning that describe what’s going on in each character’s lives before they intersect. After their meeting is set up, each character has flashbacks to establish more history. I couldn't do this unless I had the license to get into both characters' heads.

When they’re finally in the same room together, there is a lot of head-hopping, particularly once their intimacy becomes likely. It helped that there was only one male and one female character; so gender pronouns (he/she), as well as the characters’ names, allowed the reader to always know who was thinking to themselves.

The story was edited by LadyVer. She’s a very experienced editor and was strict about many things in my writing. I specifically asked her about the head-hopping, and she said it wasn’t a problem—she always knew who was thinking what. That was good enough for me.

 

[SolarRay]

I mostly write in first person POV, but I'm actually working on a story right now in third person omniscient that head hops between the two main characters within scenes more frequently than I have usually done in such cases. The reason is exactly the point MelissaBaby extracted from the blog post. The main characters, who form a couple, are going through an experience together and their relationship itself acts as the main character in a way. Although they have distinct perspectives on things, what I intend to explore is the way their perspectives evolve in tandem. When it's broken up by appropriate elements of description, it flows rather nicely.

In my opinion, head hopping like this tends to work best when you switch between two key characters at any given time, whether that's the two main characters, or just two prime movers within a particular scene. It is useful and interesting to see what they are both thinking and feeling about a shared experience. -- Once you're juggling more than two characters, I think it's best to remain limited to the mind of one or two characters to serve as a constant frame of reference that allows the narrative to flow comfortably without the reader getting lost and having to switch contexts so dramatically.

Does this more or less jive with other's experiences?

 

[SimonDoom]

I mostly write in first person POV, but I'm actually working on a story right now in third person omniscient that head hops between the two main characters within scenes more frequently than I have usually done in such cases. The reason is exactly the point MelissaBaby extracted from the blog post. The main characters, who form a couple, are going through an experience together and their relationship itself acts as the main character in a way. Although they have distinct perspectives on things, what I intend to explore is the way their perspectives evolve in tandem. When it's broken up by appropriate elements of description, it flows rather nicely.

In my opinion, head hopping like this tends to work best when you switch between two key characters at any given time, whether that's the two main characters, or just two prime movers within a particular scene. It is useful and interesting to see what they are both thinking and feeling about a shared experience. -- Once you're juggling more than two characters, I think it's best to remain limited to the mind of one or two characters to serve as a constant frame of reference that allows the narrative to flow comfortably without the reader getting lost and having to switch contexts so dramatically.

Does this more or less jive with other's experiences?

With mine, definitely. Depending upon the scene, switching from one partner's perspective to another's within a particular scene can, I think, be an effective technique, because you can convey contrasting points of view, and in an erotic scene the contrast can heighten the tension and drama, and the eroticism.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'm sure it can be done well. The problem is that as control over perspective is lost, the writing tends to become sloppy and increasingly is preferred by the less-skilled writers. So, it isn't that it can't be done well; is more that lazier and less skilled writers tend toward that writing style an become more of the proportion of writers using it.

One consideration here: it's easier to build empathy with a character when the reader sees the world as they do. Careless use of omniscient perspectives or head-hopping tends to undermine that empathy. For instance, "Pride and Prejudice" works better because the reader learns the truth about Wickham & Darcy at the same time that Lizzie does, so they have to go through the same re-evaluation that she does.

Giving multiple perspectives can work well when the object is to contrast those perspectives. Brian Bilston's At The Intersection is a clever example in short poetry.