Post-Structuralists

[rgraham666]

I prefer to think in terms of guidelines, Charley, rather than boundaries. Although the former can easily be mistaken for the latter.

I'm not much of one for boundaries myself. Wouldn't be a smut writer if I was.

In these terms, guidelines are useful. They orient you to the world. Tell you where you are coming from, where you are going, how far you've traveled. They help identify wrong turns, more efficient or if you're so inclined more scenic routes.

Something with neither guidelines or boundaries would be akin to floating in deep space. The best you can do is flail, you can't affect anything even your own position in the universe.

And it's true, guidelines can become a straight jacket. In such cases I ignore them. But I only ignore them if they are no longer useful, not simply because I can. Doing something because you can is nihilism and I've already let you know what I think of that.

As regards Socrates, you're half right. The Socrates of The Dialogs was a real person. There's ample evidence of his existence; references in contemporary works of literature and history.

The Socrates of The Republic was a fictional character, created to give philosophical cachet to the corporatist dictatorship Plato proposed. The real Socrates, dead for forty years, would have given his former pupil a right tongue lashing for creating something like that and attaching his name to it.

 

[CharleyH]

I prefer to think in terms of guidelines, Charley, rather than boundaries. Although the former can easily be mistaken for the latter.

I'm not much of one for boundaries myself. Wouldn't be a smut writer if I was.

In these terms, guidelines are useful. They orient you to the world. Tell you where you are coming from, where you are going, how far you've traveled. They help identify wrong turns, more efficient or if you're so inclined more scenic routes.

Something with neither guidelines or boundaries would be akin to floating in deep space. The best you can do is flail, you can't affect anything even your own position in the universe.

I understand why you say what you do above, I do not agree, though. Without going against the grain and stepping over boundaries, there is, in a way, no growing (which is maybe why I think of Cats piece that I quoted as humourously contradictory and perhaps in pieces I read down the line, satirical - have not read the whole - so do not know completely). Guidelines are always useful, they orient you into the 80 percent of society, where you are very accepted. I am not really arguing insomuch as I am discussing, yet a smut writer is about 80 per cent conventional, too.

In other words, it takes the avant-garde to get people out of their complacency. If not for the structual, would there be post-structual? If not for post-structual would there be post-modernism? It goes back way more than that and in many avenues. Where would we be if not for those who took a chance and did something different. Does life move (porn, is included) because of those who are conventional? The world is made by those who do not believe in conventional means.

In another way, I suppose, it's why I see the irony of what I quoted and getting back to it: there is a now, it's all we really feel or experience, RIGHT NOW, but it's way too fleeting like my last letter/word/sentance. Is it an illusion or a reality (Cat may want to JUMP in here!). We are always moving away from now and into the future, the past is a millisecond ago, and I will quote Kafka in a short story here, although I can't recall the title: One character was asked where are you going? the other character answered "always away from here. Alway from here. Always, away from here."

Not sure it anyone gets this but, thats ok - I do. LOL

As for Socrates? Where in history is he but a character in a book or two of Plato's? Are the Republic and Dialogues that different?

T

RG

 

[rgraham666]

I understand why you say what you do above, I do not agree, though. Without going against the grain and stepping over boundaries, there is, in a way, no growing (which is maybe why I think of Cats piece that I quoted as humourously contradictory and perhaps in pieces I read down the line, satirical - have not read the whole - so do not know completely). Guidelines are always useful, they orient you into the 80 percent of society, where you are very accepted. I am not really arguing insomuch as I am discussing, yet a smut writer is about 80 per cent conventional, too.

In other words, it takes the avant-garde to get people out of their complacency. If not for the structual, would there be post-structual? If not for post-structual would there be post-modernism? It goes back way more than that and in many avenues. Where would we be if not for those who took a chance and did something different. Does life move (porn, is included) because of those who are conventional? The world is made by those who do not believe in conventional means.

In another way, I suppose, it's why I see the irony of what I quoted and getting back to it: there is a now, it's all we really feel or experience, RIGHT NOW, but it's way too fleeting like my last letter/word/sentance. Is it an illusion or a reality (Cat may want to JUMP in here!). We are always moving away from now and into the future, the past is a millisecond ago, and I will quote Kafka in a short story here, although I can't recall the title: One character was asked where are you going? the other character answered "always away from here. Alway from here. Always, away from here."

Not sure it anyone gets this but, thats ok - I do. LOL

As for Socrates? Where in history is he but a character in a book or two of Plato's? Are the Republic and Dialogues that different?

T

RG

I like the Kafka quote, because I understand it. It's both true, and funny.

But cat's stuff is so far out there, it's like climbing Mt. Everest when walking to the beach is the highlight of my day. I'll read about it in the paper but it has no impact on me at all.

According to what I know the Republic and the Dialogs are that different. Some people have done analysis on the earliest works in Greek and come to the conclusion that the Socrates in the Republic was a fictional character.

The Dialogs were written not too long after Socrates died. So there were a lot of people who knew him. If Plato misquoted, people would notice.

The Republic was written forty years later, so there were a lot fewer people to challenge him.

 

[CharleyH]

I like the Kafka quote, because I understand it. It's both true, and funny.

But cat's stuff is so far out there, it's like climbing Mt. Everest when walking to the beach is the highlight of my day. I'll read about it in the paper but it has no impact on me at all.

According to what I know the Republic and the Dialogs are that different. Some people have done analysis on the earliest works in Greek and come to the conclusion that the Socrates in the Republic was a fictional character.

The Dialogs were written not too long after Socrates died. So there were a lot of people who knew him. If Plato misquoted, people would notice.

The Republic was written forty years later, so there were a lot fewer people to challenge him.

Hm Rob, check post for inconsistancy.

Night love - you are a charming talker.

 

[rgraham666]

Hm Rob, check post for inconsistancy.

Night love - you are a charming talker.

Of course I'm inconsistent. I'm human.

Night beautiful.

 

[cataleptik]

no real need for me to jump in,
but socrates? well, ever hear of a republican coverup and conspiracy?
ever hear of taking a fall? somebody was gay, but it may not have been ol' soccer'. it's old history, but not ancient.

and also not beyond conjecture. the same republic ruleth.
as an overt and obvious anarchocommunist i can easily say that
this story has elements of surrealism and french staging a la artaud. it's actually a work in progress, glad it is being almost enjoyed.

my ignore list brings all the dogs to the yard.

 

[cataleptik]

I think it's cute.

A bit Joycean. With more periods.

yeah, i love the ellipsis.

the comic colin quinn used to do his early standup referencing joyce.
he gave up because it was too erudite and went over the heads of the comedy clubs. as such, believe it or not, quinn is one of my primary influences, as i gig at hotels and poetry readings in museums and such. thx.

 

[cataleptik]

Can't agree here Rob. An artist (as opposed to an author seeking a publisher suitable audience) is almost obliged to push at the boundaries. Only by testing the limits can an artist begin to substantiate a body of work. All artists do this, we are prehaps less used to 'art' manifested through the written word, particularly in a form also testing philosophical constructs.

I admit, it is not an easy piece to read, and I can imagine it was not an easy work to write. It has less value in its current form when compared with the conventional body of writing, but I have to admire Cataleptic for stepping upto the plate and putting it where it can be seen. We don't have to admire it, we don't even have to understand it, and it doesn't need to have the broad base appeal that you cite in your last paragraph. The point is to stretch at the boundaries, see how far you can distort them and discover where the journey takes you. Plenty of conventional written expression exists, we shouldn't be too tough on someone for testing a different approach. because I'm sure that's all this piece is - a test. Cataleptic got scalded when this was presented this last year - and displays guts just to show up again.

also: an author seeking a publication-suitable audience
IS
an artist. examples include Anne Rice, Stephen King and Stephen Colbert.

if people tolerate dumbness without fighting back,
they get what they pay for.

 

[cataleptik]

who says?

henry miller and the divine undead: chapter three



NO THIS DIDN'T FUCKING HAPPEN?!

god. people, fuck you if you can't tell a joke and fiction from what i am doing or a damn lie. fiction is fiction, a joke. like the travelling salesman? those are jokes. people with no sense of humor will be hacked off the web.

cat-


also racists. you go to hell with hitler and harry truman k? thx

charley yeah, you almost started to understand. it was about the fact that
anarchosurrealists are no majority. but the cold indifferent hostility to women is so palpable here that this board can go hack itself. i am out.
anyone who wanted to message me would have, fuck you all bitterly.

 

[slyc_willie]

Never mind. Not worth it.

 

[cantdog]

Steve Martin said it, pithily

Some people have a way with words. Other people-- oh, not have way, I guess.

 

[Stella_Omega]

charley yeah, you almost started to understand. it was about the fact that
anarchosurrealists are no majority. but the cold indifferent hostility to women is so palpable here that this board can go hack itself. i am out.
anyone who wanted to message me would have, fuck you all bitterly.

Indifference to women? If people are indifferent to your message here, it ain't because of your gender.

Damn, girl. You want to be an artist? You want to be on the forefront, the avant'garde, bring a new vision to the masses? A laudable ambition, but a tough road to travel. No one EVER said it would be a bed of roses.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Gee, only 36 more stupid posts and you can have an Avatar too, just like the REAL PEOPLE.

 

[cataleptik]

I like this so much it's going into my sigline. That's a highly accurate and very wise statement.

actually it occurred to me that i was simply humble and coherent
and that you were too arrogant to really understand.

but instantly, mind, you, not months later.

 

[cataleptik]

Indifference to women? If people are indifferent to your message here, it ain't because of your gender.

Damn, girl. You want to be an artist? You want to be on the forefront, the avant'garde, bring a new vision to the masses? A laudable ambition, but a tough road to travel. No one EVER said it would be a bed of roses.

but indifference is what it is: it is the human that has given up and gone robot.

it's pure denial, not a true coping mechanism. as such it closes its mind and assumes like Rand that what is beyond its experience does not matter.


what happens? a) artists go on in communities that the indifferent close their minds to. our communities persist -- the indifferent saying 'that is not real' fails to make us less real. like this tiny little virtual space.

indifference then backfires -- because if all the people trying to be "proud of literotica" throw up the 'well, we don't ACTUALLY care' pose -- well, then no one has to care...and thus it is a robotic, bloggy waste of time. "literotica" goes on as an UNOWNED and free concept -- so if people are posing at indifference out of a failure to develop an attitude based on action, well, then, nobody cares anyway, right?

it's not about 'taking the fun out of being indifferent' -- indifference is no fun. how could it be?

post structuralists beyond myself have made sport of people feigning sophistication in such ways. i mean -- you go ahead and make yourself look big for five seconds by ripping on people who make art that feels. people do it all the time.

it takes real depth to know and understand that there is an entire art of reaction and protest devoted to reducing to absurdity exactly that.

you can only make an argument out of indifference if you ache to be torn apart. that's what I am saying.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I always say there are three parts to art; heart work, head work, and hand work. You feel, you communicate-- but unless you master the skills, the craft of your art, you won't make that contact with those other hearts. it's a tricky balance.

And when you're forging new skills and crafts you might find yourself waiting for the bus to get to your stop for a very long time... like a couple more generations.

 

[cataleptik]

From Wikipedia

Post-structuralist narrative theory basically attempts to focus on the essential 'incompleteness' of narratives. This approach endorses the possibility of having indetermined, forever continued reader-centred narratives. Having roots in Jacques Derrida's Structure, Sign, Play in the Discourse of Human Sciences, this reading of narrative gets strengthened through the writings of Roland Barthes, Mikhail Bakhtin and Wolfgang Iser's theoretical interpretation of narratives.

all seems true. additionally because of the use of incompleteness as a device, there can always be more...

branching off from Derrida into the ideas of Deleuze and Guattari as well as Henry Miller and Ayn Rand's Euro-influenced American fiction helped as well...Ayn Rand is little recognized as an erotic writer because of the un-Romanticized quality of Eros in her writing. Miller is viewed as debauch and gutter. At least by me-

 

[cataleptik]

edited

 

[cataleptik]

"To Hell with the Hedgewardens!"

had to edit,
'cos
you don't get it.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I always say there are three parts to art; heart work, head work, and hand work. You feel, you communicate-- but unless you master the skills, the craft of your art, you won't make that contact with those other hearts. it's a tricky balance.

And when you're forging new skills and crafts you might find yourself waiting for the bus to get to your stop for a very long time... like a couple more generations.

Or the bus driver might just shrug and not stop at all.

 

[xssve]

"In the United States, the majority undertakes to supply a multitude of ready-made opinions for the use of individuals, who are thus relieved from the necessity of forming opinions of their own."

-- Alexis de Tocqueville

Translation: "Bullshit is a uniquely American institution".

"As one digs deeper into the national character of the Americans, one sees that they have sought the value of everything in this world only in the answer to this single question: how much money will it bring in?"

It becomes axiomatic in terms of cause and effect, due to the first law of bullshit: "money talks, bullshit walks".

 

[Stella_Omega]

"In the United States, the majority undertakes to supply a multitude of ready-made opinions for the use of individuals, who are thus relieved from the necessity of forming opinions of their own."

-- Alexis de Tocqueville

Translation: "Bullshit is a uniquely American institution".

"As one digs deeper into the national character of the Americans, one sees that they have sought the value of everything in this world only in the answer to this single question: how much money will it bring in?"

It becomes axiomatic in terms of cause and effect, due to the first law of bullshit: "money talks, bullshit walks".

If people pay for the bullshit, is it still bullshit?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Of course. The Bandini company is proof of that and has been for years. http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/1volupturary_manque/36_2_34.gif

 

[Guest]

If people pay for the bullshit, is it still bullshit?

If they frame it and hang it on their wall, it becomes art.

 

[Stella_Omega]

If they frame it and hang it on their wall, it becomes art.

This thread is a breath of fresh air.