Play punishment vs Real punishment

[MasterKensbeany]

Play punishment vs real punishment

It was not my intention to move away from the original intent of the “favorite punishment” thread. I apologize if it seemed that way. Playdoe suggested making this a separate thread and as I would be interested in seeing some other points of view on the subject, here it is.

The discussion has been going something like this; in a D/s relationship, are punishments “real” or “play”?

Playdoe stated:

“Don't confuse the bounds between real punishment and the "play of BDSM". BDSM is consentual and is fun. It can involve scenes that seem like punishment, but in reality are just play and are quite enjoyable for the sub. These are things that the sub really enjoys doing, however to intensify the scene, they pretend otherwise.

Real punishment of any nature, is something no sane adult would want to submit to. That's why we have prisons (and marriage I believe ;-)).”



In my relationship with Master, there is a difference between “play” and “real” punishments. I may not want to be punished if I’ve done something wrong but, I have consented to being punished as Master sees fit.



“If you enjoyed having your nipples twisted, however, against your will, you were abducted and nipple torture was applied, do you think you would enjoy it?

I'd say no. When you consent to be someone's sub, you consent to a certain set of rules that you have hopefully negoitiated.
You agree to those rules and the consequences for breaking them, because you know it will be fun. It's all play because of this. It's not "real punishment". Real punishement (to me) is when you break the law and you have no choice over the consequences.”



I would never equate anything Master does to me to being abducted and tortured by strangers. I don’t quite understand the analogy.

Just because I’ve consented to the consequences for breaking rules doesn’t mean I think those consequences will all be fun. In fact, I am quite certain that if the offense is bad enough, there will be absolutely no fun involved at all. I have consented nonetheless and I will take my punishments.



NemoAlia said:

“In my opinion, punishment (in a D/s relationship) is too often a glorified word for the Dominant's own personal hissy fit. To me, it seems that cutting off communication is a childish way of dealing with frustration or disappointment.”



Personally, I’ve never had a Master who threw a “hissy fit” and I wouldn’t stay with one long that did. They have at times gotten angry with me, usually for something I’ve said, and I have been punished. Although the punishments weren’t fun for me and I didn’t enjoy them, I did deserve them and I did understand that they were given with love and my welfare at heart.



Playdoe said:

“You can call it punishment all you want, however, you can walk away from it, if you choose. You have that power. To me (notice I said me) that isn't real punishment.”



Let me make an analogy of my own here. You work at a job you truly love, something you would hate to lose. One day, you do something that gets you into serious trouble i.e. you don’t do something you were supposed to do, you miss an important deadline, you get angry with your boss and yell at him/her and call them some choice names...that kind of thing. Your boss decides to punish you, demote you, write you up, suspend you without pay for a few days...is this a real punishment or is it play? You have the choice, you can quit and walk away. If you stay and take the punishment, is it fun?

I’m not making fun here and I’m not judging anyone else’s choices, I’m simply trying to understand this way of thinking. I would very much like to hear other’s opinions on the matter.

Thank you Playdoe and NemoAlia for your input and your thoughts.

Respectfully
beany

 

[Ebonyfire]

Play punishment vs real punishment

It was not my intention to move away from the original intent of the “favorite punishment” thread. I apologize if it seemed that way. Playdoe suggested making this a separate thread and as I would be interested in seeing some other points of view on the subject, here it is.

The discussion has been going something like this; in a D/s relationship, are punishments “real” or “play”?

Playdoe stated:

“Don't confuse the bounds between real punishment and the "play of BDSM". BDSM is consentual and is fun. It can involve scenes that seem like punishment, but in reality are just play and are quite enjoyable for the sub. These are things that the sub really enjoys doing, however to intensify the scene, they pretend otherwise.

Real punishment of any nature, is something no sane adult would want to submit to. That's why we have prisons (and marriage I believe ;-)).”



In my relationship with Master, there is a difference between “play” and “real” punishments. I may not want to be punished if I’ve done something wrong but, I have consented to being punished as Master sees fit.



“If you enjoyed having your nipples twisted, however, against your will, you were abducted and nipple torture was applied, do you think you would enjoy it?

I'd say no. When you consent to be someone's sub, you consent to a certain set of rules that you have hopefully negoitiated.
You agree to those rules and the consequences for breaking them, because you know it will be fun. It's all play because of this. It's not "real punishment". Real punishement (to me) is when you break the law and you have no choice over the consequences.”



I would never equate anything Master does to me to being abducted and tortured by strangers. I don’t quite understand the analogy.

Just because I’ve consented to the consequences for breaking rules doesn’t mean I think those consequences will all be fun. In fact, I am quite certain that if the offense is bad enough, there will be absolutely no fun involved at all. I have consented nonetheless and I will take my punishments.



NemoAlia said:

“In my opinion, punishment (in a D/s relationship) is too often a glorified word for the Dominant's own personal hissy fit. To me, it seems that cutting off communication is a childish way of dealing with frustration or disappointment.”



Personally, I’ve never had a Master who threw a “hissy fit” and I wouldn’t stay with one long that did. They have at times gotten angry with me, usually for something I’ve said, and I have been punished. Although the punishments weren’t fun for me and I didn’t enjoy them, I did deserve them and I did understand that they were given with love and my welfare at heart.



Playdoe said:

“You can call it punishment all you want, however, you can walk away from it, if you choose. You have that power. To me (notice I said me) that isn't real punishment.”



Let me make an analogy of my own here. You work at a job you truly love, something you would hate to lose. One day, you do something that gets you into serious trouble i.e. you don’t do something you were supposed to do, you miss an important deadline, you get angry with your boss and yell at him/her and call them some choice names...that kind of thing. Your boss decides to punish you, demote you, write you up, suspend you without pay for a few days...is this a real punishment or is it play? You have the choice, you can quit and walk away. If you stay and take the punishment, is it fun?

I’m not making fun here and I’m not judging anyone else’s choices, I’m simply trying to understand this way of thinking. I would very much like to hear other’s opinions on the matter.

Thank you Playdoe and NemoAlia for your input and your thoughts.

Respectfully
beany

I see punishment as punitive control used to correct behaviour.

I do not see punishment as being part of play. Discipline is a more apt description of what goes on during D/s play.

Ebony

 

[NemoAlia]

What happens if a Dom/me says something or behaves in a way that the sub finds to be 'wrong?' In most D/s couples, the sub is free to leave, of course. But what if it's not that serious? I mean, aren't there different levels of both 'offenses' and solutions? Or have subs (or slaves, depending on your life choices) given up everything but their right to dissolve the relationship when something isn't satisfying them?

 

[MasterKensbeany]

"Or have subs (or slaves, depending on your life choices) given up everything but their right to dissolve the relationship when something isn't satisfying them??


I can only speak for myself but, as a slave...YES...I have given up every right but that one.

Respectfully
beany

 

[NemoAlia]

Then, beany, I respect your decision. My comments are directed at people whose Dom/mes not only work to deserve their subs' submission throughout the D/s relationship, but who also value their subs' efforts in helping them in that process.

It seems to me that in a relationship where someone 'earns' someone's submission before the relationship begins, the person who becomes the Master/Mistress is deemed to be somehow infallible, at least in anything short of a relationship-ending extreme. Is this true? In a Master/slave relationship, must the Dom/me only maintain that level of 'worth' that s/he achieved prior to the beginning of the relationship in order to fulfill the contract?

And for people who are not in Master/slave relationships like beany's, my original question still stands.

 

[serijules]

Originally posted by PlayDoe
Don't confuse the bounds between real punishment and the "play of BDSM". BDSM is consentual and is fun. It can involve scenes that seem like punishment, but in reality are just play and are quite enjoyable for the sub. These are things that the sub really enjoys doing, however to intensify the scene, they pretend otherwise.

Real punishment of any nature, is something no sane adult would want to submit to. That's why we have prisons (and marriage I believe ;-)).

I never really thought of it this way Playdoe, but I have to admit this makes sense to me. I love the punishment/discipline scene, (which I get a lot of 'there is something wrong with you for wanting that' comments, but ah well) Even in the times that the discipline is very real to both my partner and I, you are right in that it is something I consent to and even enjoy to a certain extent. I wouldn't really call it roleplay for me because the reasons and reactions behind the discipline/punishment are very real, but in my relationships that level of consent is always there.

Just because I’ve consented to the consequences for breaking rules doesn’t mean I think those consequences will all be fun. In fact, I am quite certain that if the offense is bad enough, there will be absolutely no fun involved at all. I have consented nonetheless and I will take my punishments.

For me there are two types of discipline in my relationships. One is more 'play' than the other, one is more real and much like what was described by beany above.

The feeling of someone caring enough about me to make me responsible for my actions is a very secure feeling for me when done properly. The release I get from being able to cry from it, from having a way to face my guilt, is comforting. The more real discipline doesn't have the added thrill to it, I consent to it because I feel I deserved it and want closure on whatever it was I did to earn it.

Discipline in play is a thrill for me. I grew up getting away with everything, always being the good girl no matter what mischief I got into. The thrill of having my bottom spanked well past what I really WANT, of having my nipples clipped or pussy punished or whatnot...is exhilarating. I consider this play discipline, but I love it when the stern discipline tone is added behind the actions, it's more of a thrill. However, I DON'T like it to be for a 'fake' reason...even if the reason is just because he feels I need it, that is all I need, rather than making up some misgiving.

I guess I'd rather not worry about definitions or whys and whats of the discipline or punishment, it works for me, it's something I love to hate, and I wouldn't change a thing about it.

-edited to correct silly coding mistakes...remind me not to post when I have headaches-

 

[artful]

As MsWorthy knows,...

...I am a one track minded kind of guy, (not multi-tasked at all). So I will attempt to distinguish, (real time punishment from real time discipline).

Indeed,...it is a grey area for many of us. Mostly,...it's in the eye of the beholder, the one being subjected to it, or the one dishing it out.

If a college student needs remedial help in PRINTING the alphabet, (each letter correctly as the TEACHER has ordained), in a one on one tutorship of student, the teacher has given clearly understandable examples, of what the desired printings should look like, and teaching has begun.

The student begins printing the letter *a*, but the student, instead of printing *a*,...prints @. As soon as the effort is completed,...the teacher has the duty of correcting the mistake, showing the student how, in fact, they didn't print the letter *a*,...as set forth in the example.

After many efforts,...the student finally is ABLE to print the letter *a* very well. The teacher then directs the student to print the letter *b*. The student is successful at printing the letter *b*.

The teacher THEN, directs the student to print the letter *a* again, and the student reverts to printing @. The teacher has the duty of correcting the mistake, showing the student how, in fact, they didn't print the letter *a*,...as set forth in the example, and directs the student to try again.

Having gone through this time and again, both the student and the teacher become frustrated. If the teacher doesn't have another technique available, she keeps requiring the student to practice printing the letter *a* over and over again.

Sometimes the results are positive,...sometimes they are negative. The teacher MAY see this as DISCIPLINE, but the student MAY see it as PUNISHMENT, (practice-practice-practice). Indeed,...one could look at it either way.

If a teacher were to yell and holler at the student in a demeaning way, or slap the students palm with a ruler, each time they misprinted the letter *a*,...then punishment has been meted out, even if both teacher and student view it ONLY as DISCIPLINE.

Discipline is well thought out, punishment is not. Discipline is an attempt to INcrease ones WORTH,...while punishment is an attempt to DEcrease ones worth. It mostly depends on HOW it is viewed.

(JMHO),...but it's mine,...and I own it.

 

[NemoAlia]

Artful wrote:

Discipline is well thought out, punishment is not. Discipline is an attempt to INcrease ones WORTH,...while punishment is an attempt to DEcrease ones worth. It mostly depends on HOW it is viewed.

MissTaken wrote something similar on a past thread:

Punishment: It is negative approach, an act or consequence for wrong doing, the purpose of which if vengeance.

Discipline: An act or consequence for wrong doing, the purpose of which is helping the perpetrator of wrong doing to learn to manage their own behavior and grow.

This seems to be one popular opinion. However, the idea that punishment is, in fact, constructive also holds a lot of sway, as evidenced by Never's comment in this thread:

So, if my girlfriend begins to act in a way we both know is inappropriate and I decide I’m simply not going to communicate with her until she adjusts, I’m ‘emotionally abusing’ her?

Never seems to be supporting the idea that punishment is ultimately 'good for' a sub, if the Dom/me has the sub's 'best interests' (i.e., adjusting) at heart. To me, claims like these seem to contradict the idea that punishment is destructive.

In fact, I find it hard to reconcile the idea that so many people accept the idea that punishment is destructive with the idea that so many people still find it an acceptable way of helping a sub achieve his/her potential.

**Edited to fix typos. Whoops!

 

[artful]

Nemo

Never seems to be supporting the idea that punishment is ultimately 'good for' a sub, if the Dom/me has the sub's 'best interests' (i.e., adjusting) at heart. To me, claims like these seem to contradict the idea that punishment is destructive.

In fact, I find it hard to reconcile the idea that so many people accept the idea that punishment is destructive with the idea that so many people still find it an acceptable way of helping a sub achieve his/her potential.

**Edited to fix typos. Whoops!

Mostly I think it boils done to it being the GREY area I spoke of, and the difficulty of separating, and/or distinguishing, what IS,..punishment versus discipline, (eyes of the beholder).

 

[NemoAlia]

Here's a link to a thread I just found while perusing the annals of BDSM Talk. This conversation has come up before!

 

[NemoAlia]

Artful -- assuming that both the Dom/me and the sub agree that what is going on is punishment, what then?

It seems to me that beany and other posters are working from this assumption.

 

[artful]

Nemo

Artful -- assuming that both the Dom/me and the sub agree that what is going on is punishment, what then?

It seems to me that beany and other posters are working from this assumption.

Thanks for posting to me,...but I have no valid answer for that. All I can honestly do is offer MY opinions on how *I* feel about the topic being discussed.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Artful wrote:

MissTaken wrote something similar on a past thread:


This seems to be one popular opinion. However, the idea that punishment is, in fact, constructive also holds a lot of sway, as evidenced by Never's comment in this thread:


Never seems to be supporting the idea that punishment is ultimately 'good for' a sub, if the Dom/me has the sub's 'best interests' (i.e., adjusting) at heart. To me, claims like these seem to contradict the idea that punishment is destructive.

In fact, I find it hard to reconcile the idea that so many people accept the idea that punishment is destructive with the idea that so many people still find it an acceptable way of helping a sub achieve his/her potential.

**Edited to fix typos. Whoops!

It all comes down to to each his or own. There is no definitive answer. The correct answer is the one that fits the specific individuals involved.


Ebony

 

[PlayDoe]

Questions for beany

Beany, let me ask you a few questions. Do you, in anyway, enjoy the fact that you are being punished? Does it give you a sense of well being knowing your master is doing it to you? Have you ever discussed what constitutes punishment with your Dom?

 

[MasterKensbeany]

Re: Questions for beany

Playdoe wrote:

Beany, let me ask you a few questions. Do you, in anyway, enjoy the fact that you are being punished? Does it give you a sense of well being knowing your master is doing it to you? Have you ever discussed what constitutes punishment with your Dom?

____________________________________________________

Dear Playdoe

To answer your questions, first let me state that my current Master has thus far never felt the need to seriously punish (discipline) me. I would honestly hope he never does but, I'm too realistic to believe that's true. I have been punished by former Masters though and no I have never found it enjoyable at the time. In fact, it has always been the hardest thing for me simply because it meant that I disappointed someone I cared deeply for. For myself, that's always been the worst part of any punishment, far worse than any pain given, any shame from being shunned and locked away or any boredom from being given some tedious task to complete.

Yes, after the punishment, when the reasons and feelings were discussed, I have felt a sense of joy that my Master cared enough to punish me for whatever I had done. I would even go so far as to say, if my Master didn't care enough to discipline me when I obviously deserved it, it would break my heart. I do love the feeling of being cared for and treasured so much.

As to your last question, I've had to do some real thinking but I would say no, I don't think I've ever discussed what constituted punishment with any Master I've been with. The decision on how to punish me for misdeeds has always been theirs and theirs alone. Their methods of discipline have been varied according to their own temperments, and often according to the offense. For me, its not the method of punishment that has mattered at all but, the disapproval and disappointment that my actions or words caused. This is not to say that the punishments were unnecessary, they are meant to reinforce the memory of how I erred, just as a smile and kind word from Master reinforces the memory of what I've done to please him.

I hope all of that makes sense.

Respectfully
beany

 

[catalina_francisco]

May be an interesting bump for some.

Catalina

 

[Toa_lin]

yes, I think punishment may not be enjoyable at the time for the pyls I've had in the past. But the idea behind it is simple, if I did not cherish them enough, i would not take the time to correct their actions to pro-long our time together.