Perceptions of control

[Red Menace]

I went to my first BDSM club meeting today and thought it was pretty darn cool. I don't know why I've been so hesitant to go... everyone was very nice and welcoming, they had some of the most fascinating playstations and I got to see an excellent speaker, Guy Baldwin.

He gave a wealth of information, but one of the most important points I think he hit upon was was control. He said, "A Dom does not control anything. All a Dom can do is influence, manipulate and forge a bond to the sub that compels them to choose to serve."

Just wondering... What does your SO do that inspires your loyalty (subs), or what do you do that compels the service of your SO (Dom/mes)?

He also mentioned that Dom/mes are often reluctant to talk about their fears, concerns, issues... basically, anything that would make themselves seem less than completely in control to their subs or peers. Although they expect emotional transparency from their subs, they are reluctant to do the same, often afraid it will compromise their status as someone in control and deserving of trust and respect.

Dom/mes, do you find this to be true and who do you turn to when you feel the need to discuss things that could be perceived as weakness? Subs, how do you feel when your Dom exposes their vulnerabilities or fears? Does it make you feel closer to them, more able to share your own issues or do you prefer them to stay up on a pedestal as someone who is all-wise and totally in control?

 

[artful]

All a Dom can do is influence, manipulate and forge a bond to the sub that compels them to choose to serve."
*****I tend to disagree with his assessment on this. I however am not a Dom that looks for *play* or *scenes* with anyone but a 24/7 sub. I don't even WANT to influence or manipulate my sub in any way, that would tend to change WHO she is.

My responsibilities, I feel, are to appraise what I think may be suitable, (what will match), WHO she really is,...to what I *need*. After having done so,...then allow her, (guide her), to find her true self.

As I subject her to my training methods, it is more "teaching her what SHE wants to learn", than it is for me to teach her what I *MIGHT* prefer. In doing this, I have full faith the end result will match what I *need*.

If at anytime I perceive she wouldn't BE what I needed, (willingly), then I would release her.

<snip>********************************************
Dom/mes, do you find this to be true and who do you turn to when you feel the need to discuss things that could be perceived as weakness? *****There are times when I have open discussion with my sub,...and yes it is *open*,...and I let her see SOME of my inner fears.

I don't think I could ever expose my fears to her completely, nor would I ever want to, but she NEEDS to know there is a *human* side to her Master also. One that has faults, imperfect, and from time to time,...make mistakes.

As far as, "Who do I turn to?", I turn to many people. I read this Forum, listen to others viewpoints, and try to learn as much as I can on how to be a better Master for her.

As *specific* problems arise,...I deal with it in a timely fashion, as my knowledge and experience permits.

I don't go asking anyone elses advice. I feel I have enough knowledge in directing our relationship, to fulfill EACH of our goals.

(JMHO),...but it's mine,...and I own it.

 

[Lancecastor]

The Happy Days Factor

My personal theory about the roles that Het D/s people tend to take on closely match typical male/female western cultural patterns from the years between the post WWII economic expansion and the entrenchment of Feminism in society.

So, yes, Mrs. Cunningham needs to know that Mr. Cunningham has a heart....but she also expects him to do all the heavy lifting and anything that is dirty, dangerous or requires strong leadership.

D/s culture tends to be very patriarchical in its structure, jargon and outward expectations.

Obviously, given that we live in a society that now considers gender equality the norm...and we're nearly there on equality for gender preference too...most of the "dichotomy friction" is seen (IMO) on the surface as occuring in the behavior of submissive women.

The general population now finds a woman who says "I need to call my man before I answer that." to be a freak, whereas forty years ago, that behavior was the norm.

And I think that's why modern het sub women express so much frustration about BDSM, men and society.

When the real trouble is probably rooted in the tight assed Doms who wrote much of the crap that hits mainstream as the "Rules" for being BDSM in the first place ...and the unimaginative maroons that adhere to that crap.

From that perspective, you are right on, Red Menace.....because in the end, any real D/s relationship ...and any real relationship...is based on mutual understanding and respect.

Those are my thoughts. Line forms to the right. All clubs should be less than 4" in diameter. Have a day.

Cheers;

Lance

 

[lovetoread]

I never thought I'd say this, but...

I agree with Lance,he typed it up better than I could.

 

[Lancecastor]

Now that you've seen the light, you'll find that everything I say makes perfect sense.





L

 

[lost]

<snip>
He also mentioned that Dom/mes are often reluctant to talk about their fears, concerns, issues... basically, anything that would make themselves seem less than completely in control to their subs or peers. Although they expect emotional transparency from their subs, they are reluctant to do the same, often afraid it will compromise their status as someone in control and deserving of trust and respect. <snip>

I don't think I could trust a Dom if He didn't trust me enough to open up to me, w/o trust in D/s where are you?

 

[Ebonyfire]

Now that you've seen the light, you'll find that everything I say makes perfect sense.





L

ROTFLMAO!

You crack me up, L!

Eb

 

[NemoAlia]

I find that my partner's ability to live life in a way that I admire and want to emulate is what compels my submission. Part of what I admire about my partner is that he shares his feelings openly. Part of what I admire about him is that he takes these into consideration when he's using reason to make his ultimate decisions. Part of what I admire about him is his ability to stand by the decisions he makes -- not because he refuses to change his mind, but because right from the beginning he took the time to make sure that his decision was correct, and that he wouldn't need to change his mind.

Well, anyway, this list goes on and on. Perhaps the most interesting item on this list is: Part of what I admire about him is his disapproval of the 'capitulation to stereotypical gender roles' attitude toward BDSM. It is this attitude that keeps him from actually dominating me. He's waiting to know that I am not choosing the easy way out (i.e., letting someone else make my decisions for me because it takes a load off my back) before he'll even consider becoming my master.

Frustrating, difficult... yes. But I choose to follow his example because I respect it and because I admire him.

 

[Ebonyfire]

but one of the most important points I think he hit upon was was control. He said, "A Dom does not control anything. All a Dom can do is influence, manipulate and forge a bond to the sub that compels them to choose to serve

He gave a wealth of information, but one of the most important points I think he hit upon was was control. He said, "A Dom does not control anything. All a Dom can do is influence, manipulate and forge a bond to the sub that compels them to choose to serve."

This post discusses a lot of issues, so I decided to focus on this one.

IMHO, this statement is just word play.

First of all, manipulaton is a form of control. Don't believe me, read the dictionary. "manipulation= to control by artful, unfair or insiduous means"; "to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose".

This is very a negative connotation that frankly I do not want to e associated with.

And since this is in fact a form of control he contradict's his own statement.

Dom/mes do control. How and why they control depends on who they are and who their subs are.

Ebony

 

[lovetoread]

Now that you've seen the light, you'll find that everything I say makes perfect sense.





L

I'm scared now.

 

[Red Menace]

Thank you all for your responses

Art - I agree that a Dom/me should not try to change who their sub is but I think what he was getting at was that the Dom/me exerts his or her influence and practices their craft in a way that the sub knows they are heard and understood, loved and disciplined and compelled to serve their Master or Mistress.

Ebony - you could argue the semantics between control and manipulation, but I believe in this instance, he meant control as a means of forcing someone to do something with or without their consent and manipulation to mean convincing them that they want to do what you want them to do. Perhaps by making a safe environment for confessions that are difficult to admit, or expecting them to fold your laundry a certain way because they find they are rewarded by your pleasure.

In what ways can a Dom/me exert that influence over their subs? How is that bond forged that inspires loyalty and servitude?

Lance - I can just see Mrs. Cunningham sitting by the foot of the bed on her knees, thighs spread apart, waiting for Mr. Cunningham to finish up at the hardware store.

Lost - I'm not sure I want to know every fear that goes through a Dom's head. I don't think I want to know that they have doubts about how far to push me, have no clue about how exert influence in a certain area or are sometimes frightened of particular aspects of themselves. There is a certain amount of emotional transparency I desire from a Dom, but there's other things that might cause me to doubt their dominance over themselves or me and I'd want them to find someone else to share those things with. Especially at the beginning of a relationship. That may change as we grow more intimate.

Nemo - He sounds like a very patient, understanding person and a someone worthy of giving your submission to. That's exactly what I was getting at... he creates a desire within you to serve him because his actions speak of integrity, honesty and a genuine concern for you. His witholding of dominance compels you to consider issues he wishes you to and makes you desire his dominance much more than if he just thrust it upon you.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Thank you all for your responses

Art - I agree that a Dom/me should not try to change who their sub is but I think what he was getting at was that the Dom/me exerts his or her influence and practices their craft in a way that the sub knows they are heard and understood, loved and disciplined and compelled to serve their Master or Mistress.

Ebony - you could argue the semantics between control and manipulation, but I believe in this instance, he meant control as a means of forcing someone to do something with or without their consent and manipulation to mean convincing them that they want to do what you want them to do. Perhaps by making a safe environment for confessions that are difficult to admit, or expecting them to fold your laundry a certain way because they find they are rewarded by your pleasure.

In what ways can a Dom/me exert that influence over their subs? How is that bond forged that inspires loyalty and servitude?

Lance - I can just see Mrs. Cunningham sitting by the foot of the bed on her knees, thighs spread apart, waiting for Mr. Cunningham to finish up at the hardware store.

Lost - I'm not sure I want to know every fear that goes through a Dom's head. I don't think I want to know that they have doubts about how far to push me, have no clue about how exert influence in a certain area or are sometimes frightened of particular aspects of themselves. There is a certain amount of emotional transparency I desire from a Dom, but there's other things that might cause me to doubt their dominance over themselves or me and I'd want them to find someone else to share those things with. Especially at the beginning of a relationship. That may change as we grow more intimate.

Nemo - He sounds like a very patient, understanding person and a someone worthy of giving your submission to. That's exactly what I was getting at... he creates a desire within you to serve him because his actions speak of integrity, honesty and a genuine concern for you. His witholding of dominance compels you to consider issues he wishes you to and makes you desire his dominance much more than if he just thrust it upon you.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Thank you all for your responses

Ebony - you could argue the semantics between control and manipulation, but I believe in this instance, he meant control as a means of forcing someone to do something with or without their consent and manipulation to mean convincing them that they want to do what you want them to do. Perhaps by making a safe environment for confessions that are difficult to admit, or expecting them to fold your laundry a certain way because they find they are rewarded by your pleasure.

Not to argue, but...

I was not there, so I cannot comment on his intentions, however
I believe my point still holds: that control is control and Dom/mes have it, either positively or negatively.

Semantics are in the eye of the beholder. It is up to the individuals to to define their reality.

Ebony

 

[Red Menace]

Re: Re: Thank you all for your responses

Semantics are in the eye of the beholder. It is up to the individuals to to define their reality.

Ebony

lol. And your definition of reality and how you execute that reality is one of the things I respect about you. Point taken.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: Perceptions of control

First of all, manipulaton is a form of control. Don't believe me, read the dictionary. "manipulation= to control by artful, unfair or insiduous means"; "to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose"

Ebony

If manipulation is not control, it is certainly an ATTEMPT to control.

I agree with you, Eb. Whatever realty is to you is real, period.

Rose

 

[Ebonyfire]

I am remiss

in saying this is an excellent thread. So many opportunities for folks to express themselves.

I hope many more folks will post their views. Thanks, Red Menace.

Eb

 

[A Desert Rose]

............Although they expect emotional transparency from their subs, they are reluctant to do the same, often afraid it will compromise their status as someone in control and deserving of trust and respect.

---------------------------

It's a shame if someone feels like this. I have a great deal of respect for someone who can admit they don't know it all, who are willing to learn and experiment and experience new things.

I don't see a connection in being a Dom/me who is in control and one who isable to admit to being human and willing to grow and learn. I would not want a Dom who is static and unwilling to explore new things. Growing and being adventureous adds zest to our lives.

Rose

 

[artful]

Re: Thank you all for your responses

Art - I agree that a Dom/me should not try to change who their sub is but I think what he was getting at was that the Dom/me exerts his or her influence and practices their craft in a way that the sub knows they are heard and understood, loved and disciplined and compelled to serve their Master or Mistress.

I can agree with your statement above.^ I still don't agree with the original statement as set forth below.
**************************************************

"A Dom does not control anything. All a Dom
can do is influence, manipulate and forge a bond to the sub that compels them to
choose to serve."

**************************************************

Thanks for the thread topic, AND your response to my post Red

 

[MissTaken]

I really am on a fence here with a thumb up my butt...

*smirks*

I think novice submissives and novice Dom/mes need to understand that submission is a choice. The power exchange is a choice made by the two parties in volved.

Too many submissives don't seem to understand that a Dom is more than someone who dictates and gets his way all of the time. Early on, the choice is both party's...does the sub chose to submit? Does the Dom chose to accept the sub's submission?

In a perfect world, at some point, the Dom does have complete control vis a vis the trust that has built over time and the sub would not consider severing the relationship except for in extreme circumstances.

In time...

In the beginning, the power exchange is mutual.

No one person has all control.

 

[~Dream~]

Respect and trust

(just lurking lol) since Miss T is 1 of the people I HIGHLY respect on this board,I wish to say i agree 100% with her words and that NOBODY but NOBODY "COMPELLS me to do anything,EVER .. My Life and the actions involved in it are MY CHOICES =MY responsibility!! the ONLY time I become the 100% responsibilty of my Dom is if & when COMPLETE control is given to him.. I am really stsrting to feel that submission is much more than a "power exchange, its a giving of your HEART& SOUL to be treasured & cherished..and NOT just BLANKETLY all AT once for everyone .. it takes time & TRUST NOT abused... if Subs Are NOT feeling "Heard OR UNDERSTOOD , if their FEELINGS are being "cast aside" then they are NOT likely to carry the same respect they once had for their Masters/ Mistresses at all.. JMHO.. and I AM entitled to it

 

[~Dream~]

Oh and by the way...

if you really wanna exercise some CONTROL .. It's ALWAYS a really "great idea to "CUT OFF COMMUNICATION" .. THAT WAY YOU AS Dom /MES get to feel like YOU are HIGHER than God Himself but then again , I pose this question to you ? if you have indeed SEPERATED yourself from your submissive for sake of PUNISHMENT , Discipline or whatever... WHO Are you REALLY controlling why they ARE NOT THERE?hmm? just a thought and we all KNOW mine are pretty .. *****d up these days !

 

[Skitten]

perceptions of control

You are the only one who can give your dom/mes the control. And I believe that it is not something you can just give overnight .
You must build the trust up and be totally committed to the relationship as well as that person.

Once you are willing to submit to that person, you are letting him/her make decisions for you. But is also out of respect for them . You are willing to show your true feeling for that one person by letting them help you to be the real you. Them making a decision for you or controlling you means that you trust and respect that they will do what is best for you.

You are giving that person control yes, but you are also showing them the respect that they deserve. Your dom/mes would not let any harm come to you and if you are not secure in the decisions they make, maybe you are not secure enough in that realtionship.

Afterall most of it is a trust issue and if you give yourself to that person. Trust and commitment are a very important fact in that.
Yes He/She are in control of you, but they are also there for what is best for you.

 

[Lancecastor]

Hi Dream;

I'm not saying "anything" about the numbers of hours you've been gone.

;-)

I just want to say that your AV's always rock.

Cheers;
Lance

 

[~Dream~]

Roflmfao@ Lance

at least YOU make me laff babe.. ty soo much .. i am only exercising my GOD-given right to post wherevre *I* want about whatever *I* want to!! lol God I LOVE this country...!! Geez I hope i didnt break any BDSM records or anything cause "officially" I'm "Lurking" lol i'm really happy that SOME people appreciate my avys!! lol

 

[Rubyfruit]

I like God. He grants me the right to post on porn boards.

Cool dude.