Patriotism, a (hopefully) non-political inquiry

[Liar]

Howdy folks. Here comes a longwinded question. I hope some of you wise folks can give it a moment. I'm working on a essay in political science about the possibility (or not) of a United States of Europe, and I'd love me some international input...



Nationalism, patriotism, and all that jive. We all harbor it, on some level. If only to root for the national athletes in the olympics or care a little extra about events and domestic politics, even if they actually don't affect you. Or at the very least, most of us identify ourselves in part with a flag, a border, a word.

But I have a question for you folks out there, especially in countries like the US and the UK. Or for that matter Russia, Germany, China, India and other countires large enough to have that kind of complex composition.

How does nationalism work for you?

I live in a small country. One language, one solid national history and pretty much one and the same culture (plus whatever culture immigrants bring wit them, but that's more like interresting spices than a different stew). No history of regional separatism, no clashing of ethnic groups, and pretty much only one political arena. We're just about nine million people, and I can go anywhere in a day and on one full tank of gas. It's easy to think of all of it, as "mine", as "home".

How does that work when your country is half a continent?

Is there also the same strong "national" love for US states as there is for the whole shebang? For your city/county? Do you "feel" a little extra for, let's say Iowa, or are you an American, all else irrelevant?

Or how does it work in a place with a bunch of historically well defined parts, like the UK? From what I understand, many Brits are English, Scots et al, with the United K as nothing but a political convenience (or inconvenience)? Or is there a Great British national "spirit" too?




Spot-on topic for a porn board, eh?

 

[neonlyte]

I've regarded myself as European rather than English or British since the early 70's. I have no particular allegiance to the British Isles, I regard it as an accident of my birth. There are aspects of British culture I enjoy, the neat organisation of it's countryside, bluebells in the spring and a general desire to be fair and equal (as long as it doesn't impinge upon 'my' standard of life. There is hypocrisy in spadefuls in Britain, I don't enjoy it. There are other European countries I feel closer to but this may be an illusion of language, not understanding the nuances sufficiently well to see the 'true nature' of things.

As regards a US of Europe... what's to object to other than foolish regulation? We don't need straighter bananas, we do need to protect cultural identity in each of the member states, which by and large has been achieved. The UK is the xenophobe on the outskirts of Europe, quite what it seeks to protect is a mystery to me.

 

[S-Des]

It's a good question. I don't feel as much regional pride as I do national (which seems counter-intuitive, but it's the truth). When it comes to sports teams, bands, artists, etc..., I'm much more into rooting for people in my immediate area. I guess it comes down to the country giving me the rights to do and say almost anything I want, and providing for the neighborhoods to spring up the way they will (within given legal parameters). It's probably got a lot to do with where I grew up as well, as Chicago is one of the most corrupt cities in the country. It's so much larger than any of it's suburbs that it kind of sucks the identity out of everything (every town/city within 100 miles is called a suburb of Chicago). I'm just outside of it, so have no say in how it's run or who's elected, so I don't feel any attachment to it other than it's a cool place to hang out. My guess is that people who grew up in less populated areas will feel differently, but I don't know. I'll be interested to see what they say.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I rarely think my nationality unless someone forces me to.

My community has an ongoing problem with Canadians who winter here. They insist on hoisting their flag above their house or RV.

Or a corporation imports a herd of Indians to use to collect Affirmative Action money from the government. The American government wont pay anyone to hire whites, but they'll use white tax dollars to pay someone to train Indians to take the jobs back to India.

Or the state university sets aside seats for foreign students while rejecting American applicants.

 

[lesbiaphrodite]

I'm not particularly patriotic. But, I do love my region, the food, the people, the history. America as a whole, parts of it I can take or leave. Yet, there are things that define me as American.

 

[Liar]

I'm not particularly patriotic. But, I do love my region, the food, the people, the history. America as a whole, parts of it I can take or leave. Yet, there are things that define me as American.

And what are those things? What things makes you connect on a more national level than local?

 

[rgraham666]

Larger political entities are a simple matter of survival in today's world. A large political entity can protect itself against other, similar forces, and extra-national forces such as the global business system. They have the power to say 'no'.

Canadian nationalism is a reflection of Canada itself. It's quiet but very deep. Few of us get vocal about it but we care a lot for our country. We believe it has managed to balance out the laissez-faire political system of the U.S. with the social system of Europe. Somewhat. It's never quite that simple.

I'm looking forward to the day when most people regard humanity as their nation though.

 

[Liar]

Or a corporation imports a herd of Indians to use to collect Affirmative Action money from the government. The American government wont pay anyone to hire whites, but they'll use white tax dollars to pay someone to train Indians to take the jobs back to India.

Or the state university sets aside seats for foreign students while rejecting American applicants.

But, are those "America and Americans first, forriners second" attitudes or protest about policies that are in fact inequal?

If a company shipped in cheap guest workers from India without any tax money aid, would the outrage be the same?

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

As an American definately national pride comes first, not regional or state. I'm pasting a little essay in th next post that I have found useful in understanding American patriotism. Yesterday in the "We hold these truths . . ." thread I wrote that both the American and British people have a "genius" (guiding spirit) that combines a strong sense of individual freedom and autonomy with a strong sense of common sense. I think that all peoples have have their own "genius" founded on combinations of various qualities - the ones I cited, or perhaps communitarian, historical, mystical or other ones.

Language (and culture) is a whole other dimension separate from nationality, and there's hardly anything that more defines who we are and even how we think, so having a strong sense of love and allegiance to one's language is probably very fundamental, whereas nation-states and our devotion (or not) to them is purely a social construct. My next post explains how in at least one case love for a nation-state is based on its identification with certain values - the liberal, Enlightenment values enshrined in the US Declaration of Independence.

 

[lesbiaphrodite]

And what are those things? What things makes you connect on a more national level than local?

Hmmmm. A good question. Certain aspects of America help to define who I am and what I value (in my subjective view; and, mind you, these are just my opinions):

1/ A love for wide, open spaces that go for miles with nothing but highway and roadside cafes to punctuate the journey.

2/ A preference for direct, straightforward, even 'tough' talk when it comes to business.

3/ A certain thrill in being individualistic, even to the point of excess.

4/ A romantic sensibility that often leads me to my own ruin.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

ROXANNE

I'm guessing youre not from the South. I'm 7th generation Floridian and the ancestors came to Virginia in 1607.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

The True Meaning of Patriotism

Patriotism these days is like Christmas — lots of people caught up in a festive atmosphere replete with lights and spectacles. We hear reminders about “the true meaning” of the occasion — and we may even mutter a few guilt-ridden words to that effect ourselves — but like most people, each of us spends more time and thought in parties, gift-giving, and the other paraphernalia of a secularized holiday than we do deepening our devotion to the “true meaning.” The attention we pay the fictional Santa Claus rivals that which we pay the One whose name the holiday is meant to hallow.

So it is with patriotism. Walk down Main Street America and ask one citizen after another what it means and with few exceptions, you’ll get a passel of the most self-righteous but superficial and often dead-wrong answers. America’s Founders, the men and women who gave us reason to be patriotic in the first place, would think we’ve lost our way if they could see us now.

Especially since the attacks of 9/11, Americans are feeling “patriotic.” For most, that mere feeling suffices to make one a solid patriot. But if I’m right, it’s time for Americans to take a refresher course to appreciate what being a patriot should really mean.

Patriotism is not love of country, if by “country” you mean scenery — amber waves of grain, purple mountains’ majesty and the like. Almost every country has pretty collections of rocks, water, and stuff that people grow and eat. If that’s what patriotism is all about, then Americans have precious little for which we can claim any special or unique love. And surely, patriotism cannot mean giving one’s life for a river or a mountain range.

Emma Goldman, in a 1911 essay, rightly disparaged this parochial, location-based concept. That kind of patriotism, she said, “assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others.” Like Emma Goldman, I’d like to think there’s something about being a patriotic American that’s far removed from the young Nazi soldier who marched into battle for “the Fatherland.” After all, he thought he was patriotic too.

Patriotism is not blind trust in anything our leaders tell us or do. That’s just stupidity, and it replaces some very lofty concepts about the true meaning of the word with the mindless goose-stepping of cowardly sycophants.

Patriotism is not picnics, fireworks, or a day off work. At best, those are outward manifestations of something which could be patriotism, but it might also for some be nothing more than a desire to have a little fun.

Patriotism is not simply showing up to vote. You need to know a lot more about what motivates a voter before you judge his patriotism. He might be casting a ballot because he just wants something at someone else’s expense. Maybe he doesn’t much care where the politician he’s hiring gets it. Remember Dr. Johnson’s wisdom: “Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels.” Others have wisely counseled that an ill-informed people can easily vote a democratic republic into bankruptcy and oblivion.

Waving the flag can be an outward sign of patriotism, but let’s not cheapen the term by ever suggesting that it’s anything more than a sign. And while it’s always fitting to mourn those who lost their lives in its defense, that too does not fully define patriotism.

People in every country and in all times have expressed feelings of something we flippantly call “patriotism” but that just begs the question. What is this thing, anyway? Can it be so cheap and meaningless that a few gestures make you patriotic?

Not in my book.

I subscribe to a patriotism rooted in ideas that in turn gave birth to a country, but it’s those ideas that I think of when I’m feeling patriotic. I think a patriotic American is one who reveres the ideas that motivated the Founders and compelled them, in many instances, to put their lives, fortunes and sacred honor on the line.

What ideas? Read the Declaration of Independence again. Or, if you’re like most Americans these days, read it for the very first time. It’s all there. All men are created equal. They are endowed not by government but by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. Premier among those rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Government must be limited to protecting the peace and preserving our liberties, and doing so through the consent of the governed. It’s the right of a free people to rid themselves of a government that becomes destructive of those ends, as our Founders did in a supreme act of courage and defiance more than two hundred years ago.

Call it freedom. Call it liberty. Call it whatever you want, but it’s the bedrock on which this nation was founded and from which we stray at our peril. It’s what has defined us as Americans. It’s what almost everyone who has ever lived on this planet has yearned for, though only a few have ever risen above selfishness, ignorance, or barbarism to attain it. It makes life worth living, which means it’s worth fighting and dying for.

I know that this concept of patriotism puts an “American” spin on the term. But I don’t know how to be patriotic for Uganda or Paraguay. I hope the Ugandans and Paraguayans have lofty ideals they celebrate when they feel patriotic, but whether or not they do is a question you’ll have to ask them. I can only tell you what patriotism means to me as an American.

I understand that America has often fallen short of the superlative ideas expressed in the Declaration. That hasn’t diminished my reverence for them, nor has it dimmed my hope that future generations of Americans will be re-inspired by them. Whatever our shortcomings, the fact remains that our Founders bequeathed us a marvelous mechanism whereby we can fix those flaws and perhaps someday shepherd our form of government to as close to perfection as may be humanly possible. This brand of patriotism, in fact, gets me through the roughest and most cynical of times.

My patriotism did not flag when one president debased the Oval Office with a young intern, or when another one covered up an illegal break-in. My patriotism is never affected by any politician’s failures, or any shortcoming of some government policy, or any slump in the economy or stock market. I’ve never felt my patriotism to be for sale or up for a vote. I never cease to get that “rush” that comes from watching Old Glory flapping in the breeze, no matter how far today’s generations have departed from the original meaning of those stars and stripes. No outcome of any election, no matter how adverse, makes me feel any less devoted to the ideals our Founders put to pen in 1776.

Indeed, as life’s experiences mount, the wisdom of what giants like Jefferson and Madison bestowed upon us becomes ever more apparent to me. I get more fired up than ever to help others come to appreciate the same things.

During a recent visit to the land of my ancestors, Scotland, I came across a few very old words that gave me pause. Though they preceded our Declaration of Independence by 456 years, and come from three thousand miles away, I can hardly think of anything ever written here that more powerfully stirs in me the patriotism I’ve defined above. In 1320, in an effort to explain why they had spent the previous thirty years in bloody battle to expel the invading English, Scottish leaders ended their Declaration of Arbroath with this line: “It is not for honor or glory or wealth that we fight, but for freedom alone, which no good man gives up except with his life.”

Freedom — understanding it, living it, and teaching it to posterity. That, my fellow Americans, is what patriotism should mean to each of us today


Lawrence Reed

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

ROXANNE

I'm guessing youre not from the South. I'm 7th generation Floridian and the ancestors came to Virginia in 1607.

I thought about that - it may be a partial exception. But if you scratch deeper I still think the national thing is primary. In addition to the identification with the ideals we share there's a lot of shared history - the Revolutionary War for starters. Virginians and Brooklynites shoulder-to shoulder in landing craft heading heading into Omaha Beach, or going over-the-top at the Argonne and Meuse, and many other events generates deep and lasting bonds in all of us.

 

[Liar]

Interresting replys, all.


Two querstions for Rox.

1. I don't really get into the gist of that essay. The author seems to equate "American patriotism" with celebrating a bunch of very good ideals - liberty, freedom, individual rights. But those things are not uniquely American. If it's only about that, why no patriotism for Paraguay, New Zealand and Latvia? (Ok, I have no idea what the freedom situation is in Paraguay, but in general, scores of other nations are just as committed to those ideals as the US is.)

2. You say your emotional connection is more to the United Stated than to your home state. Which one is that? Could there perhaps be a difference between states? There seeme to me to be a whole lot of "state identity" going on in some parts of the US. Texas comes to mind. New York likewise.

 

[jomar]

Is there also the same strong "national" love for US states as there is for the whole shebang? For your city/county? Do you "feel" a little extra for, let's say Iowa, or are you an American, all else irrelevant?

I live in the US and that's the way it works for me and, I think, for most people here. We have soft spots for our birthplace, places we've lived, where we live, etc. There are places we think are beautiful and those that are not desirable. The people of different regions have different reputations/stereotypes. But undergirding it all is a national pride.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Interresting replys, all.


Two querstions for Rox.

1. I don't really get into the gist of that essay. The author seems to equate "American patriotism" with celebrating a bunch of very good ideals - liberty, freedom, individual rights. But those things are not uniquely American. If it's only about that, why no patriotism for Paraguay, New Zealand and Latvia? (Ok, I have no idea what the freedom situation is in Paraguay, but in general, scores of other nations are just as committed to those ideals as the US is.)

2. You say your emotional connection is more to the United Stated than to your home state. Which one is that? Could there perhaps be a difference between states? There seeme to me to be a whole lot of "state identity" going on in some parts of the US. Texas comes to mind. New York likewise.

Gee Liar, I think the essay conveys the answer to No. 1. In short, to the extent that a particular patriotism is based on a committment to certain values that we believe are universal then the same sentiments could apply there. See my post in the "America - tattered and torn" thread.

The answer to No. 2 is yes, but per my previous post here I still think the national connection is primary. Those state things can be like ethnicity in this country - some groups may celebrate it more than others, but their primary attachment is to the nation.

 

[3113]

Howdy folks. Here comes a longwinded question. I hope some of you wise folks can give it a moment. I'm working on a essay in political science about the possibility (or not) of a United States of Europe

Never happen. The French won't allow it (joke! That's a joke!)

Is there also the same strong "national" love for US states as there is for the whole shebang? For your city/county? Do you "feel" a little extra for, let's say Iowa, or are you an American, all else irrelevant?

Well, I'm a science fiction fan and, honestly and truly, I tend to think that way a great deal. When I think nationalism, I end up thinking of the human race protecting planet Earth, as that makes a great deal more sense than trying to protect a portion of one landmass with borders arbitrarily created, given, stolen, won in wars.

It's so much easier to belong to the human race. We, are, after all, all on the same space ship.

On-the-other-hand, I do have a love for my particular *culture*. Which is what Roxanne tends to wax poetic about and quote people regarding. Now that culture is part-American, part regional U.S. and in that instance I don't think that I differ at all from you, Liar; It's all just a matter of where you feel comfortable; of being loyal to a place that generally shares your values, traditions, mode of speech, etc. Down from continent to region of continent to local area to neighborhood.

Allow me to put it another way. My husband and I have visited different states. There are times when we feel that, outside of the look of the place, we're still at home--the people think and act pretty much as we do. And there are times when we feel like we landed on Mars. I know for a fact there are places where we would be *miserable* with the local culture, and yet, it's still the U.S.A. Likewise, my husband has gone to London several times and he feels right at home there. Outside of the weather, he could happily live there. I suspect I'd feel right at home in your country, Liar, and could live there.

Roxie's proclimations of loving the U.S. for being the "land of the free" etc. are, ultimately, bullshit, because there are parts of the U.S. where gay people, for example, cannot live freely, as themselves. Where they would--they do--get beaten up or killed (and that's by local, generally law-abiding folk, not by criminals). There are places where people will bring out their shotguns, destroy your business if you vote the wrong way, or are of the wrong religion. These are places where, I'm sure she and others of us would hate to live--where some of us do live and hate to live. And yet, she'd still be in the U.S. She'd still be among "Americans" who wave the flag on Fourth of July, and insist they love their country and it's beliefs just like she does.

A manifesto for a country doesn't make people in certain regions, with certain local customs give up their tribal culture. And I tend to think religion is far more of a unifying power than location on the global map.

Spot-on topic for a porn board, eh?

I'm very patriotic when it comes to this board. I almost never go and chat with other people on other boards. They're not part of the tribe

 

[3113]

Just to add, I once took an interesting little "test." A teacher made up a list and asked us what we ranked in what order, from first on down to last, of how we defined ourselves.

The categories were:

American
Man/Woman
Your Particular Religion (like "Catholic" or "Jewish")
Human Being

It was interesting to see what people put in what order as it showed how they saw themselves and what tribe they put first (or last) in what they'd fight for. Many put the religion first, that's how they defined themselves. Others put "American" first.

I put Human Being first. It seemed a no-brainer to me. It might be interesting to try this experiment with those interested in a united states of Europe, with "European" added to the list there as well as their particular country.

 

[NoJo]

I put Human Being first. It seemed a no-brainer to me.

Richard Dawkins angrily refuses to tick boxes, and writes "Human Being" in the "Ethnicity" section of his US immigration paper every time he flies to the U.S.

 

[3113]

Richard Dawkins angrily refuses to tick boxes, and writes "Human Being" in the "Ethnicity" section of his US immigration paper every time he flies to the U.S.

Oh, yes! I knew I'd forgotten a category! One of the categories was also "race"--do you define yourself by race like Caucasian.

Thanks Joe!

 

[Liar]

Gee Liar, I think the essay conveys the answer to No. 1. In short, to the extent that a particular patriotism is based on a committment to certain values that we believe are universal then the same sentiments could apply there. See my post in the "America - tattered and torn" thread.

Sorry, it may just be me who is dense, but I still don't get it. It gets a little confusing to try and reply to a post in another thread, but I take objection to a few things you said there. Not that the US is a great country. It is. But it being the only one guided and bound by that kind of standard of value. Simply not true. It's to my knowledge, the only country that was constructed from the ground up on them, but that doesn't mean that the values are stronger or more present there than in a country that grew into them over time, (example, the old European kingdom of Sweden) or those that have recently sprouted off larger empires (example, Australia, or even more recently, the Baltic states).

"The rightness of our values" then becomes a just as hollow an argument for nationalistic feelings as "the beauty of our purple hills and green forests". Because those are, de facto, all over the place.

For me, I think my nationalism, weak as it is but still, is rooted in cultural familiarity. I'd like to think it's because it's the awesomest place in the world. But come think of it, there are many places that, point by point, matches Sweden. Just as clean, just as pretty (come think of it, Norway is a hundred times more scenic), just as free, just as equal, just as propserous (again, Norway kicks our asses). Sometimes more (did I mention Norway?). So why do I hold Sweden in higher regard? Because there is a way of life here, just here, that I'm perfectly in tune with. A rhythm, if you like. I don't have to think twice, when communicating with the culture, the institutions or the people in general - I just know how shit works, in a way that I don't anywhere else. Even culturally quite similar places where I speak the language, I feel like a tourist. That familiarity creates a bonding. That bonding is my patriotism and nationalism.



Anyway, I'm sliding slightly off-topic here. The nature of a specific person's sense of nationalism wasn't really what I had in mind to dig into. It's an interresting question, but maybe for somewhere else. You have given me a good answer on what I actually wanted to know, the nature of US nationalisn versus US "state"-ism and "city"-ism, so thanks.

What I'm trying to explore is whether a US of E(urope) is a possibility. It's a two-fold question.

First, does a nation like that need a common nationalism? Citizens who think of themselves as Europeans first and Italians (or whatever) second? Just like Americans seem to think of themselves as that first and their local identity second. Or third.

And second: If that nationalism is nessecary, is that impossible for Europe to achieve?

I know that 9/11 was seen by the majority in the US as an attack on the whole nation. The later terror deeds in London and Madrid was seen by most Europeans as attacks on Spain and Great Britain. There was no sense of "we".

In order to be a strong unit...do we need that? And can we, as a region, (ever) find that?

 

[trysail]

Howdy folks. Here comes a longwinded question...

Oh, Lordy, Liar!

...I could write a book length answer. Instead, you will have to suffer through an immediate and, therefore, somewhat disjointed response.

Many (if not most) of the folk who wrote the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights believed their "country" to be their state and they (or their descendants) were subsequently, in turn, appalled and outraged by the rise of Federalism (Hamilton and Lincoln being the most well-known apotheoses)— viewing same as a usurpation of power that was never intended.

My distant relative, R.E. Lee, chose to resign his commission in the United States Army in order to defend what he viewed as his country (Virginia). Maryland was prevented from seceding from the United States by military occupation and the force of arms.

I was born and raised here (Baltimore, Maryland) as was my father and his father before him. We're all buried here. I went to school with the children of my father's friends— who had likewise all attended the same schools. Hell, I went to school with the same people for eighteen years in a row— in some cases, beginning at age four. Those early schoolmates remain my closest friends half a century later.

A true Baltimorean views New York as an uncivilized foreign country— full of barbarians, a place where money matters above all else, where ideas of integrity and honor are unknown; it is the nexus of fast-talking swindlers.

Similarly, we despise Washington, D.C.— an urban hellhole solely populated by arriviste, transient, petty, pompous, insubstantial, fraudulent influence peddlars and government jobholders. Maryland was once an Eden— largely rural with a single, properly sized urban center of civilization (Baltimore), blessed by "that immense protein factory" (a pristine Chesapeake Bay). We correctly place the blame for the near-ruination of Maryland on the hordes of auslanders who, in the past half-century, have descended on Washington for the sole purpose of feeding at the trough of big government. The subsequent unending suburban and exurban development destroyed some of the most gorgeous farmland in the U.S. and wrecked the Chesapeake Bay. When I was growing up, Washington was a backwater. No one of any consequence or taste wanted to live there (see Russell Baker's autobiographies). I still don't understand why a self-respecting person would choose to live there.

Today, there are TWICE as many people in Maryland as there were when I was born. There are FIVE times as many people here as there were in my grandfather's day— largely due to big government.

Is it any wonder that I have always advocated removing the seat of government to, say, Des Moines or Tupelo?

 

[3113]

I know that 9/11 was seen by the majority in the US as an attack on the whole nation. The later terror deeds in London and Madrid was seen by most Europeans as attacks on Spain and Great Britain. There was no sense of "we".

A nice point, but let's recall that 9/11 went farther than that. It may have brought out the flags in the U.S. but there was, for a moment, an amazing connection with the world, most of which were horrified by the attack and felt it along with the U.S.

This was, in part, because it was New York City, a place that has an international feel to it. It's one of those "world" cities. But mainly because it was so visually and shockingly dramatic. I seriously doubt nationalism or globalism (if you like) would have kicked in if it was the NYC subways that had blown up. Some states in the U.S. would have felt, "Well, that's New York for you," not "They're bombing us!" You need something big for all the people in all the states to say, "We're under attack" (like, say, a Pearl Harbor) not "some foreign nut in this or that state did something bad."

And when it comes to two of the tallest towers in the world, hit by planes, burning, people throwing themselves out to their death, the towers collapsing all at once! That's what I call a skip in the global record. An event so shocking or amazing that it rivets everyone to their seat and makes them take notice, and makes them feel human nationalism, not country nationalism. Hiroshima has that feel to this day; during the war, when few saw or knew what it did, it was just another bomb, but once people started seeing that film of it and the results, it took on another meaning. You don't have to be Japanese to feel a sense of horror about a bomb that can do something like that. Has done something like that.

The Moon Walk, in a positive way, also had a similar effect. A feeling of "We did it!" meaning humanity, not the U.S., never mind what flag was planted in that sand up there. The world watches it, sees it, feels it. And unless someone views the person planting the flag or the A-bombed city as a hated enemy, then for a moment, boundaries don't matter. It's hit something visceral in us, something human, not national. And we feel it as if it was happening to us, not to a foreigner.

 

[freshface]

What I'm trying to explore is whether a US of E(urope) is a possibility. It's a two-fold question.

First, does a nation like that need a common nationalism? Citizens who think of themselves as Europeans first and Italians (or whatever) second? Just like Americans seem to think of themselves as that first and their local identity second. Or third.

And second: If that nationalism is nessecary, is that impossible for Europe to achieve?

I know that 9/11 was seen by the majority in the US as an attack on the whole nation. The later terror deeds in London and Madrid was seen by most Europeans as attacks on Spain and Great Britain. There was no sense of "we".

In order to be a strong unit...do we need that? And can we, as a region, (ever) find that?

I think that the US will always be different from Europe because of the way the country developed. The supply of jobs, land, and other opportunities helped ensure that emigrants from different parts of the world had to mix in the US. Historically, within a few generations most Americans stop being Germans, Italians, Russians, or Chinese. They stop speaking their parents' language and start marrying people from other ethnic groups, further blending nationalities. Many emigrants came to the US to start a new life; leaving behind the old country was counted as a good thing. Americans also get a sense of "we" because we have ties to so many different parts. My parents' ancestors lived in Virginia, Kentucky, Missouri, and Ohio. During their lives together, my parents have lived in six states, scattered all over the country. When you travel around the country today, many of the suburbs look exactly like each other. We all speak the same language, even if they do talk funny in the South.

The sense of "we" is likely harder in Europe because of history and culture. I've never counted how many languages are spoken in Europe, but it has to be over twenty. Since most Europeans speak their native language and English, moving to a different part of Europe requires speaking someone else's language. I've met Poles working in Germany who don't speak German. It can't be easy thinking of yourself as part of a country when you don't speak the language. And, of course, it was only sixty-five years ago that Germany occupied much of Europe. A lot of their neighbors still seem to hold that against them. Throw in cultural differences, prejudices, dietary preferences, and a long history of nationalism meaning loyalty to your own country, and I think it will be a long time before Europeans are European first. In fact, the trend seems to be just the opposite. Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia are both part of history now. I still wonder if Belgium is going to end up split in two because the French and Flemish speakers can't play nicely together there.

9/11 was an attack against the whole country. The people on the airplanes, in the Pentagon, and in the Twin Towers were from all over the country. They looked like us, sounded like us, and had the same background as us. Any of us could have been a victim.

I doubt that Europe will ever become the US of Europe. Rather, I think that you will find your own way. I am highly encouraged by the stabilizing affect of the EU on Eastern Europe. EU membership is a powerful carrot for reform and has done a lot to prevent turmoil there.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

ROXANNE

I dont believe there is such a person as an 'American.' This isnt an argument that my thinking is correct, either. It's simply a statement that I perceive no evidence that makes me think people are Americans. I suspect my sentiments existed in the South before the Civil War...as Jefferson Davis said, "There never was any United STATE of America." My Virginia and South Carolina ancestors sat out the war at their home in Illinois, refusing to take arms against their people. And their Illinois neighbors left them in peace (because most were from the South, too).

If anything, I'm inclined to believe few people have any allegience to America in 2008. Sometimes it's difficult for me to get why my ancestor Samuel Miller elected to die on a British prison ship rather than swear allegience to the Crown. The Brits offered him probation & parole, and he declined.