Pat Robertson

[cantdog]

Christian Dominionists have big plans, and the last thing they want is a strong church-state barrier. These quasi-Christians on the right have tapped into something very real. Because there is a crisis of spirituality in this country; they acknowledged it, and captured some of it for their own.

Plus there's the general millenial thing. The impulse that if THIS IS REALLY IT, then we gotta get right with the Big Guy. Notice Pat Robertson when the WTC went down. He blamed gays and lesbians immediately, because in his mind was the analogy to the rain of brimstone and fire which destroyed the cities of the plain.

 

[mcopado]

According to him, sometime in the BC era, I don't know - 350BC or thereabouts (I'm guessing, this was 30 years ago for me), there was a convention held to reconcile all of the stories that were floating around back then and come up with a single, definitive Bible. The committete couldn't agree on just one story sometimes, so they let several versions remain in the final product.

It was the council od Nicea, where they also developed the Nicean Creed, which every good Catholic resites to this day...Basically an oath of fealty to that brand of CHristianity.

The council went so far as to edit many of the books, combine many of the stories (You may notice odd disjoining of sentences where subject/verb/agreement or tense changes.)

Also many books which were later found at the dead sea and nag hamadi were left out. Including the Book of Mary which was through her eyes, the Gospel of Thomas, which talks about the God within or CHristos (annointing) that each of us was born with. ANything having to do with Gnosis, a personal experience of the Divine (as opposed to having a priest be the intermediary). Anything that showed the women around Jesus as having any power. Possibly anything counter to the idea of celebacy and some scholors believe any mention of Jesus having a wife and children....

If you are interested in the altering of the texts look for books put out by a bunch of scholars called the Jesus Seminar. I believe that there is a Jesus Seminar Bible out now which uses color codes to show what was moved around, where it came from, and what Jesus actually said (some of the red letter bibles are not so accurate after all.

Also if you are interested in reading a translation of the Bible with the least amount of Translational altering the is a bible called the LAMSA Bible by the aramaic (The language Jesus spoke) scholor George Lamsa. Lamsa was from a sect in a part of the the middle east where they still spoke aramaic, and where they had little contact with the outside world. He took one of their "bibles" and translated it directly into english.

It shows that jesus and his disciples spoke in metaphor and used slang and idioms of the times...

For example Jesus said something like, " it is easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than to enter the kingdom of heaven"

Most intepret that to me that you must be poor and give everything away. What Lamsa says is that "The eye of the needle" was an actual physical place. It was either 2 boulders that framed a pass into a mountain road, or a narrow gate into some city. The travellers had to get off their camels and I believe pass through on their hands and knees to get through.

So Lamsa beleived that Jesus was saying we must be humble, to enter into the kingdom.

Rocco Errico, PHD who was a student of Lamsa and became a an aramaic scholor in his own right has written a bunckh of books about the lamsa translation. The books are very easy to read. You can get them off of Amazon.com or at least you could. I got to drime Erricco around Detroit one night, a fascinating guy.

any more questions? This is fun remembeing this stuff again.
It's also great to be able to "come out of the closet" so to speak about being a minister. Thanks

 

[Colleen Thomas]

It was the council od Nicea, where they also developed the Nicean Creed, which every good Catholic resites to this day...Basically an oath of fealty to that brand of CHristianity.

The council went so far as to edit many of the books, combine many of the stories (You may notice odd disjoining of sentences where subject/verb/agreement or tense changes.)

Also many books which were later found at the dead sea and nag hamadi were left out. Including the Book of Mary which was through her eyes, the Gospel of Thomas, which talks about the God within or CHristos (annointing) that each of us was born with. ANything having to do with Gnosis, a personal experience of the Divine (as opposed to having a priest be the intermediary). Anything that showed the women around Jesus as having any power. Possibly anything counter to the idea of celebacy and some scholors believe any mention of Jesus having a wife and children....

If you are interested in the altering of the texts look for books put out by a bunch of scholars called the Jesus Seminar. I believe that there is a Jesus Seminar Bible out now which uses color codes to show what was moved around, where it came from, and what Jesus actually said (some of the red letter bibles are not so accurate after all.

Also if you are interested in reading a translation of the Bible with the least amount of Translational altering the is a bible called the LAMSA Bible by the aramaic (The language Jesus spoke) scholor George Lamsa. Lamsa was from a sect in a part of the the middle east where they still spoke aramaic, and where they had little contact with the outside world. He took one of their "bibles" and translated it directly into english.

It shows that jesus and his disciples spoke in metaphor and used slang and idioms of the times...

For example Jesus said something like, " it is easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than to enter the kingdom of heaven"

Most intepret that to me that you must be poor and give everything away. What Lamsa says is that "The eye of the needle" was an actual physical place. It was either 2 boulders that framed a pass into a mountain road, or a narrow gate into some city. The travellers had to get off their camels and I believe pass through on their hands and knees to get through.

So Lamsa beleived that Jesus was saying we must be humble, to enter into the kingdom.

Rocco Errico, PHD who was a student of Lamsa and became a an aramaic scholor in his own right has written a bunckh of books about the lamsa translation. The books are very easy to read. You can get them off of Amazon.com or at least you could. I got to drime Erricco around Detroit one night, a fascinating guy.

any more questions? This is fun remembeing this stuff again.
It's also great to be able to "come out of the closet" so to speak about being a minister. Thanks

I just have to ask, can you explain what a coptic chrisitian is in laymans terms? Everytime I have tried to get a hndle on them I get burrie din jargon.

 

[mcopado]

I just have to ask, can you explain what a coptic chrisitian is in laymans terms? Everytime I have tried to get a hndle on them I get burrie din jargon.

Oh God, you're taxing my memory...I'll have to refresh myself on the coptics. Give me some time. If you have specific questions about certain terms, or phrases in some particular work, share it with me....Maybe I can figure out the context..

May I be so bold as to tell you that Colleen, is probably my favorite name ever. So tell me would you be an Irish Lass, a "Fair Colleen" I believe they say?

Also is your AV really you? Tongue drops to floor.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Oh God, you're taxing my memory...I'll have to refresh myself on the coptics. Give me some time. If you have specific questions about certain terms, or phrases in some particular work, share it with me....Maybe I can figure out the context..

May I be so bold as to tell you that Colleen, is probably my favorite name ever. So tell me would you be an Irish Lass, a "Fair Colleen" I believe they say?

Also is your AV really you? Tongue drops to floor.

Yep, I'm a crispy critter, just add sunshine

The pic in my av is me, thanks for the compliments. And thanks for all the information.

 

[mcopado]

The pic in my av is me, thanks for the compliments. information.

What were we talking about before, something about religion...I've lost my train of thought admiring the turn of your calf and the bare flesh above your stocking.....and your stocking......I would like to......

 

[thebullet]

mcopoda said:

It was the council od Nicea, where they also developed the Nicean Creed, which every good Catholic resites to this day...Basically an oath of fealty to that brand of CHristianity.

Hope I'm not mixing up my OTs and NTs, but wasn't the Council of Nicea during the reign of Constantine? This council dealt with Christianity and heresy. The one I was talking about was a Hebrew convention and it codified the Old Testament.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Huckleman2000]

Very interesting thread, despite its dubious top-line.

I was, with a quick Google, able to find this site , which might have what the Bullet is referring to in this passage:

The conquest of Alexander the Great in the fourth century BC made Greek the most widely spoken language in the Mediterranean area. It seemed a natural step to translate the Scriptures into Greek for the benefit of non-Hebrew-speaking Jews. The story of the origin of the Septuagint is told in the Letter of Aristeas, a psuedepigraphical book written in the second half of the second century B.C. It states that at the request of King Ptolemy II of Egypt (also called Philadelphus the king of Egypt) in (285-246 B.C.), the high priest Eleazer of Jerusalem sent seventy-two men, six from each tribe, to Egypt with a scroll of the Jewish Law, to be translated for his famous library in Alexandria. In seventy-two days they translated one section each from this scroll. So this version was the oldest Greek translation of the Old Testament (Pentateuch only) made and was called the Septuagint, the translation of the seventy, abbreviated LXX, completed about 250 B.C. The rest of the OT was done at a later date, possibly 180. Others claim seventy-two Jewish scholars living in Alexandria's Jewish community were appointed to translate the great law of the Jews for his library. Scholars do not agree on the origins of the name Septuagint, which stems from the Latin meaning "seventy". Some believe the translation was named after the number of scholars appointed, while others believe it was named for the seventy elders of Israel mentioned in Exodus as companions to Moses.
Another tradition states that it was undertaken by a group of Essene scholars, who were members of a mystic and ascetic Jewish sect that existed in ancient Palestine from the second century B.C. to the second century A.D. The Essene initiates however, were reluctant to reveal the secret doctrine of the Hebrew faith to non initiates, and therefore disguised, with the use of similes and symbolic imagery, the mysteries given by Moses. Stories such as Adam and Eve, the serpent, and of Adam's rib, which were introduced in the Greek version of Genesis, have no corresponding passages in the Hebrew original.

From the context, however, and other sites I skimmed through, it seems what we (of Christian heritage) would now refer to as the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible originated through oral traditions that started to be written down somewhere around the 7th century BCE, and sometime later the different versions were redacted into something resembling its modern form.

 

[thebullet]

Huckleman:
Thanks for the quote. It works for me.

 

[Halo_n_horns]

Y'know, this thread started out really, really good. It was exploring that massive flaw in human evolution that we call "Pat Robertson." This thread was showing him off as the phenominal ASSHOLE that he is, but has since degenerated into a bunch of overly-intellectual hullaballoo with nothing much to do about the original point at hand: Pat Robertson is ripe for being "taken out."

He's a loud-mouth, self-righteous, greedy, bible-thumping biggot who would rather see our country falter back to the days of the church ruling a country to the detriment of the people.

If Pat could just tangibly prove that his version of "God" actually exists then his followers wouldn't simply be a mass of lemmings being led around by their noses and pocketbooks for no good reason other than the growth and cultivation of his gargantuan EGO! But tangible proof is something that he'll never offer up. He'll simply do as the perpetrators of the Salem Which Trials did and assume that anything in nature that he did not himself do was the act of a greater power then he, but he'll name that power "God" OR the devil according to whichever fits his agenda. Because of that he will never have anything more than weak-minded lemmings under his feet waiting to lift him up higher than the mud puddles and shit piles that he believes himself too good to have to come in contact with, while his followers are just good enough to wade in the cess-pools for him.

Its people like Pat Robertson that make me happy and proud to say that I denounced anything that even resembles religion years ago. I'm fortunate enough to have long since lifted the blinders that come with every embracing of religion, and I was brave enough to step forward and not look back.

Pat Robertson, "Glory, glory hallelujah" that, mother fucker!!!

 

[woodnymph_O]

Oh, I dunno about that, nymphy.

Wanna hear the Choctaw creation story? I knew you would.

Many years ago, there were no men. Hush-tali was alone with our animal brothers.They gave him no comfort as they were busy playing Toli amongst themselves. Hush-tali asked Mother Moon why she shone so bright in her happiness at night. "I have my children, they play and hunt in the woods at night." Hush-tali asked Father Sun why he gave his warmth to the Earth each day. "To warm my children and give them light to play Toli." Hush-tali sat alone and thought about this for many, many years. Then Hush-tali decided that he must have his own children, too. First he built a great mountain, the one we call Nanih Waiya, to hold his children until they were born. You see, my son, there were yet no women on the Earth to a mother to men. Then, he placed the seeds of man deep within the bowels of the mountain. Knowing that they would be small and weak when they were born, Hush-tali dug a great cave in the side of Nanih Waiya. Then Hush-tali waited patiently, as any expectant father must do.

First born were the Creeks. When they came out of the cave, they climbed the side of Nanih Waiya and lay down in the light of Father Sun to dry themselves. "What is this place of light," they said amognst themselves as they lay drying. When they were dry, the Creeks walked round and round Nanih Waiya to see where they were. When they were tired, is was night and cold, so they built a the first council fire to give themselves warmth, and smoked many pipes of tobacco as they sat talking. In the morning, Father Sun came again, and they said to themselves, "Let us go to the land where Father Sun lives at night and it will not be cold." So they went to the East and there they gave birth to a Great People.

Then were born the Cherokees. When they came out into the Sun to dry themselves, the woods all around had burned, because the Creeks had been careless with their fires and their smoking. They lay on the side of the Mother Hill, Nanih Waiya, and when they were dry, they could not find the trail of their Creek brothers as the fires had burned away the trail. They walked round and round Nanih Waiya, then the wisest among them said, "Let us go this way and find a home." They went to the North and there they found a home for their Nation.

Chickasaw emerged from the Mother Hill next. As they lay, drying in Father Sun's warmth, they saw their Brothers walking to the North. They followed the Cherokee to the North land. They settled nearby, and their many children built the Nation of the Chickasaw close to their Brother Cherokees. There they stayed.

Our Choctaw people came last from the Mother Hill's belly and Nanih Waiya rejoiced that all of her children were at last born. The Choctaw walked round and round their Mother, finally lying down to dry in the Sun. When they were dry, they held the first council of the Tribe. There were many words, many voices. When it was done they decided they could not leave their Mother alone, they would stay within her sight where she could watch them and not worry. Around Nanih Waiya they stayed, they found no need to leave her.

Hush-tali smiled upon his children and it was good in his heart. This is how man was born from Mother Earth.

it took me awhile to drop back in but I loved this story thanks for sharing cloudy. I am sort of a creation story collector and love mythology, gonna share this new one with the kids tomorrow, they will be so tickled to hear a new idea of where people came from. Maybe if more parents were open about different cultures and beliefs we wouldn't have all the Darwin/god arguments, eventually they will form theor own opinions anyway.
Hugs
Nymphy

 

[woodnymph_O]

I always was very curious about the lillith mytholgy in Christian /jewish tradition , why the storys disapeared when why etc.. anyone have any information on these particular storys sorces and maybe a link or two?
Update to halo**********
Pat still sucks

Nymph

 

[Halo_n_horns]

I always was very curious about the lillith mytholgy in Christian /jewish tradition , why the storys disapeared when why etc.. anyone have any information on these particular storys sorces and maybe a link or two?
Update to halo**********
Pat still sucks

Nymph

If you Google Lillith a ton of stuff comes up. The Bible has been edited a number of times in ways that the Bible-thumpers won't admit to, or are young enough to simply not know about. Lillith was a strong woman and wanted to be an equal to Adam rather than subserviant. He couldn't get into that groove so she split. Then there's demons and angels and babies and so on. There's also a number of other stories relating to Lillith from religions that were directly and indirectly connected to Catholicism and Christianity. It all depends on how much reading and digging you'd like to do on the subject.

I use to have a bunch of links because I was using her for source material. Sadly, a computer crash has long since taken all of that away.

 

[woodnymph_O]

If you Google Lillith a ton of stuff comes up. The Bible has been edited a number of times in ways that the Bible-thumpers won't admit to, or are young enough to simply not know about. Lillith was a strong woman and wanted to be an equal to Adam rather than subserviant. He couldn't get into that groove so she split. Then there's demons and angels and babies and so on. There's also a number of other stories relating to Lillith from religions that were directly and indirectly connected to Catholicism and Christianity. It all depends on how much reading and digging you'd like to do on the subject.

I use to have a bunch of links because I was using her for source material. Sadly, a computer crash has long since taken all of that away.

Thnks hon, I will do a bit of googleing , I was recently reading of her again in The Dictionary of Angels. She is described there as a female demon that bore adam 100 children a day. I might have put more store in sunday school if they had atleast given us this excuse for why cain could find a wife , but then again that would mean we're all part demon , so I guess thats why they didn't mention it. I love this kind of stuff. Will drop a link if I find anything I find of interest
Nymph

 

[Halo_n_horns]

Thnks hon, I will do a bit of googleing , I was recently reading of her again in The Dictionary of Angels. She is described there as a female demon that bore adam 100 children a day. I might have put more store in sunday school if they had atleast given us this excuse for why cain could find a wife , but then again that would mean we're all part demon , so I guess thats why they didn't mention it. I love this kind of stuff. Will drop a link if I find anything I find of interest
Nymph

Actually she didn't begin pumping out the cherubs in mass quantities until after she exiled herself from "The Garden." In "The Garden" she was as human as Adam, but as strong-willed also. Therein lied the problem.

Good night one and all.

 

[mcopado]

Very interesting thread, despite its dubious top-line.

I was, with a quick Google, able to find this site , which might have what the Bullet is referring to in this passage:



From the context, however, and other sites I skimmed through, it seems what we (of Christian heritage) would now refer to as the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible originated through oral traditions that started to be written down somewhere around the 7th century BCE, and sometime later the different versions were redacted into something resembling its modern form.

There's also two different "versions" of the OT...There's the one that appears in most Christian Bibles, like the King James...But there's another, the "technical" name I can't recall that contains more OT Books including the Book of Tobit- We had to do a side project in school and study those though to most christians they are little known...The Study Version of the Bible we used was the NRSV, the new revised standard version. Oh yeah it is called the Apocrypha (I googled Tobit & NSRV) and it popped up...

Here is the site I found info on http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/

The site looks great, looks like it has a lot of sacred texts....

Oh and Bulletman, you were right...some of my academics and history is a little fuzzy...I also didn't realize you were referring soley to the OT.

Basically, what you and I are both saying, is that how can that mess of contradictions, rewrites, missed translations, and politically motivated rewrites be taken literally by anyone with half a brain...

That is why my nondenominational movement that I was trained in uses the by metaphysically and metaphorically...not literally.....And the fundies call us unbelievers...But now if you glance at some of the less sick televangelist (the ones who don't use their pulpit for political purposes) Like Creeflo Dollar, and Joice Myers...The talk about the metaphor and the metaphysics...but don't use those words.

 

[thebullet]

Basically, what you and I are both saying, is that how can that mess of contradictions, rewrites, missed translations, and politically motivated rewrites be taken literally by anyone with half a brain...

Because it is the Revealed Word of God!

 

[Huckleman2000]

Because it is the Revealed Word of God!

Yeah. Well, besides that....

 

[Halo_n_horns]

Because it is the Revealed Word of God!

Who did God give permission to so that these words could be revealed? Was he really done thinking them through before they were revealed? What if it was all just a rough draft for an upcoming Literotica story contest?

 

[amicus]

For SweetnPetite....sighs...not that it matters...in late on this thread....read, well, scanned it all....


There are just a handful here...mostly ladies...that I wish would rise above the clammor....

Organized religion, per se, in on the decline. Not in statistics and numbers...but in the failure of religion in the 20th century to answer 20th century questions and doubts.

And there is nothing to replace the ethics and morality of belief in god and the so called, 'sacred texts' of formal religion.

In the approach of the coming moral vacuum, do you really not comprehend the urgency of fundamentalists to reclaim the one time glory of christian ethics and morals?

Pat Roberts has been aptly described, you might well include the dozen or so television evangelists who have fallen from grace in recent years, in grandiose style...Tammy Baker? Who was the dude that threatened God if something didn't happen....forget name...

Christianity is on the ropes, not beginning with, but referencing women's lib, independence, birth control, abortion, equal rights, unwed mothers, gays and lesbians; a whole host of issues that have challenged and divided the very base
morality of christianity.

Do you expect them to just give up and go away? Get God and Christmas out of society? Their very existence is threatened.

There is no replacement for faith based belief; secular humanism, ACLU mandated relativistic morality...ethics in a vacuum, cannot replace an ancient dogma.

With the Homosexual priests scandal of abuse, the Catholic Church, had it been an industrial corporation, would have been destroyed and dismantled.

Liberal theology and politics does not provide a safe haven for those who need to 'believe'.

I have said elsewhere...that it may take a thousand years and dozens more religious wars, such as the one in the middle east, to finally eradicate formal religion as a guiding force in the affairs of man.

It may take a global climate change, a new ice age, an asteroid impact, a pandemic that reduces humanities numbers by half, or more, before the few rational minds look about and truly sense that there is no merciful god, no promised land, no heaven and we are, for the most part, alone in the universe.

So, to the few, rise above the mundane, the trivial, and begin to create and codify a rational morality for mankind.

There is no god, never was.

There is no afterlife, never was.

We possess life by the random, arbitrary coming together of universal elements and the logical progression of natural evolution of species, augmented by those pesky gamma rays that mutate human genes.

Deal with it.


amicus...

 

[Colleen Thomas]

For SweetnPetite....sighs...not that it matters...in late on this thread....read, well, scanned it all....


There are just a handful here...mostly ladies...that I wish would rise above the clammor....

Organized religion, per se, in on the decline. Not in statistics and numbers...but in the failure of religion in the 20th century to answer 20th century questions and doubts.

And there is nothing to replace the ethics and morality of belief in god and the so called, 'sacred texts' of formal religion.

In the approach of the coming moral vacuum, do you really not comprehend the urgency of fundamentalists to reclaim the one time glory of christian ethics and morals?

Pat Roberts has been aptly described, you might well include the dozen or so television evangelists who have fallen from grace in recent years, in grandiose style...Tammy Baker? Who was the dude that threatened God if something didn't happen....forget name...

Christianity is on the ropes, not beginning with, but referencing women's lib, independence, birth control, abortion, equal rights, unwed mothers, gays and lesbians; a whole host of issues that have challenged and divided the very base
morality of christianity.

Do you expect them to just give up and go away? Get God and Christmas out of society? Their very existence is threatened.

There is no replacement for faith based belief; secular humanism, ACLU mandated relativistic morality...ethics in a vacuum, cannot replace an ancient dogma.

With the Homosexual priests scandal of abuse, the Catholic Church, had it been an industrial corporation, would have been destroyed and dismantled.

Liberal theology and politics does not provide a safe haven for those who need to 'believe'.

I have said elsewhere...that it may take a thousand years and dozens more religious wars, such as the one in the middle east, to finally eradicate formal religion as a guiding force in the affairs of man.

It may take a global climate change, a new ice age, an asteroid impact, a pandemic that reduces humanities numbers by half, or more, before the few rational minds look about and truly sense that there is no merciful god, no promised land, no heaven and we are, for the most part, alone in the universe.

So, to the few, rise above the mundane, the trivial, and begin to create and codify a rational morality for mankind.

There is no god, never was.

There is no afterlife, never was.

We possess life by the random, arbitrary coming together of universal elements and the logical progression of natural evolution of species, augmented by those pesky gamma rays that mutate human genes.

Deal with it.


amicus...

Oral roberts, I believe, said god would call him home if he didn't get a certain level of donations.

On the broader subject, your supposition religion will die out as a guideing force, I think that's hogwash. People fear death. And instinctively, they want to believe death isn't the end. Until medical science can grant personal immortality and sources of dying like wars, accidents and murder are also eradicated, religion will flourish.

In the final analysis, you can even call it pride, but men refuse to accept their alloted time on this earth is all they get and once done, they are no more. AS long as something offers the hope that this isn't the case, the purveyors of that hope will make out like bandits.

On a final note, calling the wars in the middle east religious wars give them a sanctity they don't deserve. there are as many political, socio-economic and nationalistic motives as religious. A quick over view Arab vs. Jew, Arab vs. Kurd, Arab vs. Turk, Kurd Vs. Turk, Shia vs. Sunni, Shia vs. Marionite, Arab Vs. Israeli, Secular government vs. islamacist, monarchy vs. theocracy, Yemeni vs. Saudi, Yemini vs. Egyptian, Haves vs. have nots, fundamentalists vs. progressives. etc. etc. Some religion yes, but religious wars? The record dosen't support that supposition.

 

[Recidiva]

For SweetnPetite....sighs...not that it matters...in late on this thread....read, well, scanned it all....


There are just a handful here...mostly ladies...that I wish would rise above the clammor....

Organized religion, per se, in on the decline. Not in statistics and numbers...but in the failure of religion in the 20th century to answer 20th century questions and doubts.

And there is nothing to replace the ethics and morality of belief in god and the so called, 'sacred texts' of formal religion.

In the approach of the coming moral vacuum, do you really not comprehend the urgency of fundamentalists to reclaim the one time glory of christian ethics and morals?

Pat Roberts has been aptly described, you might well include the dozen or so television evangelists who have fallen from grace in recent years, in grandiose style...Tammy Baker? Who was the dude that threatened God if something didn't happen....forget name...

Christianity is on the ropes, not beginning with, but referencing women's lib, independence, birth control, abortion, equal rights, unwed mothers, gays and lesbians; a whole host of issues that have challenged and divided the very base
morality of christianity.

Do you expect them to just give up and go away? Get God and Christmas out of society? Their very existence is threatened.

There is no replacement for faith based belief; secular humanism, ACLU mandated relativistic morality...ethics in a vacuum, cannot replace an ancient dogma.

With the Homosexual priests scandal of abuse, the Catholic Church, had it been an industrial corporation, would have been destroyed and dismantled.

Liberal theology and politics does not provide a safe haven for those who need to 'believe'.

I have said elsewhere...that it may take a thousand years and dozens more religious wars, such as the one in the middle east, to finally eradicate formal religion as a guiding force in the affairs of man.

It may take a global climate change, a new ice age, an asteroid impact, a pandemic that reduces humanities numbers by half, or more, before the few rational minds look about and truly sense that there is no merciful god, no promised land, no heaven and we are, for the most part, alone in the universe.

So, to the few, rise above the mundane, the trivial, and begin to create and codify a rational morality for mankind.

There is no god, never was.

There is no afterlife, never was.

We possess life by the random, arbitrary coming together of universal elements and the logical progression of natural evolution of species, augmented by those pesky gamma rays that mutate human genes.

Deal with it.


amicus...

There are any number of things we can't explain just yet. Richard Feynman, set forth that "I'm smart enough to know that I'm dumb."

So telling people to quell their sense of wonder with things isn't necessarily the most intelligent thing to do. Einstein and Feynman both enjoyed them to the fullest.

When you die if you're actually invincible and know everything, the way you seem to think you do now, get back to us on that.

Regardless of what you do or do not believe, giving observations on things you can't possibly observe is silly no matter how you cut it.

Don't go to church? Great. Freedom of will lets other people go.

Don't believe in life after death? Great. Happy disintegration.

Allowing other people to explore reincarnation or the possibilities is a tenet of free will, which is a religious and political concept, which I support.

Crushing other people's aspirations is called being a bully, which I don't.

 

[amicus]

Oral roberts, I believe, said god would call him home if he didn't get a certain level of donations.

On the broader subject, your supposition religion will die out as a guideing force, I think that's hogwash. People fear death. And instinctively, they want to believe death isn't the end. Until medical science can grant personal immortality and sources of dying like wars, accidents and murder are also eradicated, religion will flourish.

In the final analysis, you can even call it pride, but men refuse to accept their alloted time on this earth is all they get and once done, they are no more. AS long as something offers the hope that this isn't the case, the purveyors of that hope will make out like bandits.

On a final note, calling the wars in the middle east religious wars give them a sanctity they don't deserve. there are as many political, socio-economic and nationalistic motives as religious. A quick over view Arab vs. Jew, Arab vs. Kurd, Arab vs. Turk, Kurd Vs. Turk, Shia vs. Sunni, Shia vs. Marionite, Arab Vs. Israeli, Secular government vs. islamacist, monarchy vs. theocracy, Yemeni vs. Saudi, Yemini vs. Egyptian, Haves vs. have nots, fundamentalists vs. progressives. etc. etc. Some religion yes, but religious wars? The record dosen't support that supposition.

Colleen, thank you for the name, Oral Roberts...who even has a university by that name.

And as usual, well said in your disagreement....your contention that religion will never die out is interesting and perhaps you are correct.

However, within the context of your comments, by ommission, your agnosticism became, I think, a little more firm. I sense you do not attempt to purport the existence of a surpreme being, but deal only with the faith people have, regardless.

Not religious wars in the middle east? I think the historical record for millenia supports the assertion that since the beginning of recorded history, the Jewish religion has been at war with one or another religious faction. It is just that the names have changed a bit down through the years and now it is Christian, Jew and Arab.

Whether the sacred sites are Babylon, Mecca or Jerusalem or Constantinople, Rome through the Crusades and beyond, I truly don't see how you can identify that ongoing conflict as anything but 'religious.'

amicus...

 

[amicus]

There are any number of things we can't explain just yet. Richard Feynman, set forth that "I'm smart enough to know that I'm dumb."

So telling people to quell their sense of wonder with things isn't necessarily the most intelligent thing to do. Einstein and Feynman both enjoyed them to the fullest.

When you die if you're actually invincible and know everything, the way you seem to think you do now, get back to us on that.

Regardless of what you do or do not believe, giving observations on things you can't possibly observe is silly no matter how you cut it.

Don't go to church? Great. Freedom of will lets other people go.

Don't believe in life after death? Great. Happy disintegration.

Allowing other people to explore reincarnation or the possibilities is a tenet of free will, which is a religious and political concept, which I support.

Crushing other people's aspirations is called being a bully, which I don't.

Recidiva....do you really sing Cole Porter? I must click on that....

Humility has never big my big suit of cards to play with, call it bad genes or just plain arrogance perhaps.

I really don't think one can hold a rational conversation with folks that believe in Immaculate Conception and the Devil, Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny and I prefer not to waste the effort.

But this thread was started on a topic of the danger perceived from the actions of people like Pat Robertson and the Christian Fundamentalists who are seen as wanting mandatory religion to be a function of government.

Thus, while one can accept the right of others to 'privately' believe and practice whatever witchcraft they choose, when it is brought into a public forum with a 'holier than thou' supercilious attitude, then a prudent person should offer resistance.

I did.

amicus...

 

[Recidiva]

Recidiva....do you really sing Cole Porter? I must click on that....

Humility has never big my big suit of cards to play with, call it bad genes or just plain arrogance perhaps.

I really don't think one can hold a rational conversation with folks that believe in Immaculate Conception and the Devil, Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny and I prefer not to waste the effort.

But this thread was started on a topic of the danger perceived from the actions of people like Pat Robertson and the Christian Fundamentalists who are seen as wanting mandatory religion to be a function of government.

Thus, while one can accept the right of others to 'privately' believe and practice whatever witchcraft they choose, when it is brought into a public forum with a 'holier than thou' supercilious attitude, then a prudent person should offer resistance.

I did.

amicus...

Okay, prefacing it with saying "This is arrogance" is cool.

The same way someone should preface Pat Robertson's show with "This is schizophrenic scam hour, do not send this person your money."

I read the Bible and there's quite a bit in there worth reading and I'm glad it is there to be read. That's why so many people have grabbed it and started waving it around as being important. It is. Just not for the reasons they say. It's still a good book to have around. Just not a Good Book in gilt and glitter.

Spirituality is a sense that you develop and hone. If you shut it off completely you can't appreciate it and you become spiritually crippled, and that is a loss.

Done correctly, you can learn the Earth's spiritual traditions in the same way you can learn the Earth's cuisine and it can add a richness to a life well lived and expose you to different cultures and variety.

Taken the bad way, yes, you get addicted to Religion and fast food and die of the equivalent of lazy heart attack stupid.