Parents of 4-year-olds!

[Svenskaflicka]

Long, long, rant - beware!

Today, at Weight Watchers, I got into a fight with a mother. OK; so I know that mothers are very touchy when it comes to the raising of their kids, and I do try to stay away from people with kids - except for M, because she's such a great mother. Her son can sit, heel, bark, shake, roll over, and play dead. - but in this case, I just couldn't contain myself.

It started when she blocked the entrance with the buggy, telling her older kid (around 3 or 4, I think) to open the door for her. She had to ask him 3 times before the moron obeyed. Then, once inside, she didn't have the decency to roll the buggy to the side, but instead put it SIDEWAYS in the narrow hall, making sure that no-one could enter the premises or reach the coat rack.

I managed to get pass her by pressing myself between teh buggy and the person in front of her, and so I got to the coat rack and was able to free myself of my warm coat.
Since I was going to meet my mother there, I sat down to wait, a bit to the side.

The older kid was bitching and whining that he wanted...something, something, which they had apparently left in the car. When the mother told him that they couldn't go and get it right now, he started screaming and crying.

IF M's kid would ever do something like that (he's 4), she would have silenced him immediately by telling him sharply that if he didn't behave properly, she would take him out to the car and let him wait there while she went to the WW-meeting, and that would be the last time she ever brought him along to town. Keeping a strict routine with her kid has made M the proud mother of one of the most well-behaved, most harmonius, and sweetest kid I've ever seen.

This mother didn't correct her kid, just asked him to be quiet, please be quiet, please... My irritation grew. The mother took her whining kid into the bathroom, coz he had to go, ad she left the baby in the buggy, to "mark her place in the line".

My mother came, we got in line, but as the woman didn't come out, we figured we'd go ahead, since we'd probably would be registered and weighed before she even got out from the bathroom. But, as it happened, there was a hold-up, and she got out of the bathroom, and rather aggressively told us that she had been before us in line. Mum answered that since she had left the line, we had walked ahead. The woman spit out that SHE had two kids to take care of!
"Yeah," I said. "We're aware of that..."

WHAT did I mean by that? Didn't I know that Friday meetings were for mothers with kids?

"Yeah," I said. I know. UNFORTUNATELY!"

This seemed to be a personal insult to the woman, and she turned to the rest of the line, and tried her best to make them side with her against horrible me: "DID YOU HEAR WHAT SHE SAID????"

She finished off by the classic line that all mothers use against other women who criticize their kids: "I sure hope you don't have any kids!"

I was sooooooooooooo close to telling her that IF I had had any kids, I would make sure to teach them to behave in public, but mum asked me to drop it.

So, we did or best to ignore the woman, and just watched her wrestle with her toddler who had grabbed candy from the counter and was complaining loudly that HE WANTED CANDY, HE WANTED CANDY...

The woman in question didn't stay for the lesson, thank goodness, but the leader of the class, a female Richard Simmons, only more air-headed, made sure to say a special welcome to all the mothers in the class, and to thank the rest of us for being so patient with the kids.

"Gee, I wonder who she's talking to?" mum said to me.

From next week on, we're changing group. I may write about bimbos, but I don't like being lectured by them, nor fighting with them. It's true what they say:

"Never fight with an idiot. They'll just drag you down to their level, then beat you with their experience."

So, for the question: Do YOU think I was wrong or right?

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Every parent has a right to raise their child however the deem best. That said when you take your child to a public place you are or at least should be expected to treat others with as much respect as you can. No one can guarenteed make an 8 month old infant top crying. No one should be expected to.

By the time we were four however a simple look from my dad or a threat of "if you don't behave I am telling your dad" was sufficient to correct almost any unwanted behavior. A parent who cannot control their child at all is pushing the bounds of decorum when they inflict that child on others at a public place. If the parent does his/her best and is apologetic I am usually willing to just forgive it and try to remember that being a parent is tough and that I would hope I got the same forgiveness if I had an unruly child.

If however tha parent is a witch, as this case seems to be AND can't control her kid, then I think she has crossed the bounds of respect you owe her. To be honest you were pretty restrained.

-Colly

 

[OldnotDead]

Attitude Reflection

Hi, Svenska,

The age group you are talking about can be a tough one. I would probably be a little more lenient on the mother is SHE had a better attitude toward you and your mom. People talk about terrible two's, but the reality is that from two on kid's start testing parents and basically never stop.

Sometimes we make a lot of compromises to not have a scene in public, but I think this woman showed a total lack of consideration of others. For that reason, I concur that you showed a great deal of restraint. Or, more correctly, you restrained yourself out of consideration for your own parent. A very nice gesture.

 

[TheEarl]

Apparently when I was four, I chucked an abolute mental in the middle of a WH Smiths and started screaming, banging the floor and kicking. My mum's reaction was to say "Right, we're going home now. You can either stay there, or come with me." And then she walked out. 2 seconds later I followed, no longer crying.

I have great respect for my mother, simply because she raised me properly. How much respect will those kids have for their mum? With you all the way Svenska.

The Earl

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Once, when I was very, very little, I did something similar, Earl. Apparently, I wanted something from the store we were in, mum and I, and when she wouldn't buy it for me, I threw myself on the floor, banged it with my fists and feet, screaming and crying.

A saleslady walked up to me, and said to me: "You're really not being nice to your mother!"

I shut up, got up, and walked obediently and quiet with mum the rest of the day. And I never made another scene like that again.




Thank you all for your support.

 

[English Lady]

Just one little thing on behalf of mum...maybe she'd not gotten much sleep the night before...if she had a little one that is a reasonable assumption....and well life looks different after only a few bare hours sleep(I can vouch for that) So maybe this was just an off day and she didn't have the energy to sort out the kid...thats just an idea but I know if my girl did the same she'd be out of there as fast as her little legs could carry her...simply because it is impolite to inflict her paddy on the poor unsuspecting public!


My mum used to do the same with my sister Earl...she always wanted to play on the park longer than she could so me and mum would just walk off....within seconds she'd be obediantly trotting along behind us*L*

 

[Svenskaflicka]

M was outraged when I told her. That woman was damned lucky she ran into me and not M.

I'm mild and and sweet-tempered.

M is the sharp-tongued one.

 

[Guest]

I was going to stay out of this thread, but guess what? I can't help myself.

Now, I don't know the full story, as I wasn't there. I didn't see or hear how the child and mother were interacting, I also don't know what that Mum's life is like, but I have a pretty fair idea, on both counts.

As you know, I have two daughters. One is seven, the other five. Others tell me they are the most well behaved, sweetest little girls they know; butter wouldn't melt in their pretty little mouths. Yeah, right! We all think we have the bests kids in the world and we always know best. This applies to people who aren't parents, too. "So and so's kids are perfect, they are great parents," etc. I'm sorry to be controversial, but that just ain't true.

All kids, and Mums, have their off days. I can tell you for a fact that when my eldest was four and my youngest two my off days were many. Being a parent (Mum or Dad) out on your own, in a crowded place, with two very young children can be hard work, to say the least. The sheer organisation involved in going out of the house is one thing, and remembering everything is something else.

When my youngest was little I was going through a severe bout of depression, largely post-natal, and doing anything on my own was a chore. I'm not saying I didn't, I did. I took them out a lot, and I coped, but inside I'd be cowering, dreading any slight difficulty that might come my way.

Please, don't get me wrong, I completely understand your point of view, and I also hate to see what I consider to be 'bad parenting'. This includes, but isn't exclusively limited to, swearing at children and giving them a nice hard slap, because "they had it coming to them." But, I also see things from the Mum's side. She might be going through a bout of depression and is taking some positive action to get her figure back after childbirth. She could be on her own and have nobody to leave the children with. As for leaving a four year old alone in a car, no way! That is an awful thing to consider. I hate to be shocking and alarmist, but a couple did that exact same thing here in the UK about a year ago. The car caught fire and the two children who had been left in the car burnt to death. I've also heard of children being abducted while left alone in cars. My kids are never out of my sight.

On the whole my two are very well behaved in pulic, they know right from wrong and they know their manners. They are high achievers at school and are both very well adjusted, confident, happy children. But, if I said they had never once 'played up' in a public place, I'd be lying. I deal with it, always have done, always will do. I never resort to agression, or threats, I just get on with whatever I am doing as quickly as possible, then remove them from the situation, by taking them out of the shop, or whatever. I also explain to them that I am disappointed and such behaviour will not get them what they want. They've learnt that now, and just one look from me is enough for them to remember, "When Mummy says 'no' she means 'no'." Consistency and not giving in is the key.

And, trust me when I say this, coping with two children is a lot tougher than coping with one. I know, I've been there.

Lou

 

[oggbashan]

Mine were four a long time ago.

Most of the time they were reasonable when out of the house. They behaved politely and didn't make a fuss.

BUT, when they were tired, or poorly, they could be demons. Discipline was not the problem. Their bad behaviour was a symptom of what was wrong. When that was the case the parents were not at their best either usually from lack of sleep or from dealing with the reaction of the other siblings who couldn't understand why one was upset. So we had two or three upset children.

We avoided going out if possible, but if the outing was essential we tried to return home as soon as possible. We were preoccupied and could be insensitive to the feelings of other adults when dealing with our fractious children. It is not an excuse but an acknowledgement that we put our children first.

Four year olds are a trial to parents. I am not sure whether they are worse than two year olds. Teenagers are impossible no matter how well brought up. By their twenties they should become reasonable adults - you hope.

I try not to judge parents with small children. Some parents have few parenting skills. It is the one role that you are not trained to do and the demands can exceed your capacity.

As a shopkeeper who often has children in the shop I try to divert and amuse upset children but my efforts will fail if a child is teething, ill or hurt. If that is the case I try to deal with the customer's needs as quickly as possible even if that means asking others to wait. The 'others' are usually amenable because the screaming horror departs quickly.

One of my daughters used to start screaming whenever she was taken into a shop. Which one is now the shopoholic? - no prizes!

Og

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Hey Lou

I can see you being depressed. I can see you being preoccupied, sleep deprived and even really upset yourself. What I can't see is you being rude. I am sure you have the capacity for it, but from all your posts here I have read it seems to me it would be very out of character.

-Colly

 

[Guest]

I have four children. One of them has already passed the age of four. My twins, however, will be turning four in the very near future.

While I don't agree with the way the woman acted about her place in line (I would have NEVER left my baby in a hallway with strangers while I took my other child to the bathroom, the baby would have come with us), I can empathize with her about the older child.

Most people who don't have children see a misbehaving child somewhere and automatically assume that the parent could be doing a better job (I know, I was once childless myself.) That isn't necessarily true. All of the points made here by others are good ones. There are many things that can affect a child's behavior in public. Are they just being a total brat sometimes? Yep, it's very possible, even the most angelic child can turn into a brat at the most inopportune moment. However, I would be willing to bet that at least 90% of the time, if you see a child misbehaving in a store there is a reason for it. They are tired, they are hungry, etc. A child doesn't have the attention span nor the patience of most adults, so going shopping can be a difficult experience. They get tired, they get bored, etc.

And to be honest, there is only so much you can do in public with a misbehaving child. If what you are doing is important, then you can't just leave immediately. A sharp tone and telling them they won't ever come back to town with you won't necessarily work, even if you've used this before (for example, telling the child they won't come back to town with you for a month and sticking to it), trust me, I know because I've experienced it.

Even the best mother will have times when her children misbehave in public and ignore her. It happens.

Ok, so that was alot of rambling. My point was that she shouldn't have been rude about her place in line (and shouldn't have left the baby to hold it in the first place), however, people also shouldn't be so hard on how a mother deals with a misbehaving child. Unless you know her personally, then you have no idea what her life may be like and what other challenges she may be dealing with.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I can fully understand that people can have bad days - I have a lot of them! - and I know that small kids can be a pest sometimes. What bugged me about this incident was that the mother in question didn't do anything to keep her kid in line.

I think there is no excuse for not dealing with a kid screaming. If the boy had been crying because he was SAD, I would have felt sorry for him, but he was just pissed off that he didn't get what he wanted - and the mother didn't do anything!

I don't like it when mothers are too chicken to deal with kids' tantrums. If a kid behaves badly, you should tell him to stop acting like a brat, and behave himself! Going "Oh, please, George, don't do that! Please, George, stop screaming! Please..." is NOT the same thing as being kind to your kid - it's spoiling him rotten!

No, I don't think you should swear at your kids or hit them. I DO think, however, that you should teach them to behave in company of others. They will need to learn it, if they're not gonna get a shock when they enter Real Life.

 

[BestiBobby]

"Correcting" a four year old isn't as important as teaching by example. You don't threaten a four year to behave properly "or else". You simply exhibit good behavior, and hope they catch on. If a young, young child behave inappropriately it's not his fault, and you should never treat it like it is. You simply, and pleasantly, show the kid the consequences of screaming in a public place -- you turn around and go. No recriminiations. No threats. YOu just remove the kid from the environment and explain, calmly, and lovingly, that that's what will happen when screaming occurs.

You cannot translate an adult's perception of right and wrong behavior onto a four year old.

 

[gauchecritic]

Personally I would have offered help or at least distraction for the kid.

I won't say anything more on the subject.

Gauche

 

[Svenskaflicka]

When I have kids of my own, I will imitate M's way of raising her own kids, and I will ask for her advice whenever in doubt. She practices tough love on all her family, meaning that she's very strict, and very sharp, but also very, very generous with love. The result is that her husband, her son, her dog, and her cat, all love her madly.

I remember her telling me about this time when she took her son to McDonalds, and he was misbehaving, screaming and saying he wanted, he wanted - like kids do. She warned him that if he didn't stop screaming, he wouldn't get a hamburger. She would just buy one for herself. He called her on it. She bought herself a burger, nothing for him, and then sat down and ate it right in front of him. He tried to protest, but she calmly told him that no, he wouldn't get anything, because he was disobediant. He would have to wait for dinner.

He sat quiet, staring at the table, and she finished her burger, then he said, in his normal voice: "Mommy... I'm good again, now."
She asked him if he would like a burger, he said "yes, please", she bought him a burger, he behaved perfectly, this was almost 2 years ago, and I've never seen the kid misbehave in a McDonalds ever again.

M must be doing something right, because her kid is very well-behaved, very intelligent, has a good heart, and is very lively and playful. A perfect kid.

I'm going to do just like her.

 

[BestiBobby]

There's a man witha plan.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

There's a man witha plan.

You BETTER not be referring to me!!!

 

[BestiBobby]

There's a WOman with a plan.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

THAT's more like it!

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Well no offense, but come back and talk to us after you have a couple of kids.

I used to see these kids misbehaving in restaurants, the park, in lines at check-out counters, screaming and throwing tantrums, and I would tut-tut and look away, knowing that my kids would never act like that because I’d raise them right. Strict but fair, spending lots of quality time, being reasonable with them, not sparing punishment but never getting physical…

The thing is, kids are not entirely the product of the way they’re raised. Sometimes I think a parent’s input is maybe 25% tops. Kids are born with their own personalities and their own desires, and sometimes all the good parenting in the world will not keep a kid from collapsing in tears or tantrums or from just being a monster of a child. I’m glad that McDonald’s incident worked out so well with your friend M. It sounds like she hasa very well-behaved kid, because he might just as easily have thrown a screaming fit when he didn’t get their hamburger, scattering all the food all over the floor and then getting down in the spilled coke and wallowing around and screaming in it. It happens. No matter how well you parent, it happens.

There’s really no way you’re going to believe this until you’ve got kids of your own and you’ve been up for 3 days because one of them has an ear infection and the other has projectile diarrhea and your place is a mess and you’re out of food and there’s no one to leave them with, so you have to take them to the store and of course, they start acting up. You've already tried everything you know, nothing works. They're hysterical and you're on the verge of losing it yourself. You're already embarrassed, sick, frazzled and exhausted, and then some single person gives you The Look.

Sometime there are times, as a parent, when you just stand alone in the dark with the kids screaming and you want to weep out of helpless frustration. Being a parent can be terrifying at times. At times there's so little you can do.

Miracle of miracles, they usually seem to turn out okay.

---dr.M.

P.S. I have to add, out of parental pride, that I had very good kids, though I wouldn;t be so foolish as to claim personal credit for it. My son would always respond to a cassette of Klezmer music, which for some reason would instantly stop his crying when he was an infant, and my twin girls would immediately fall asleep as soon as you put them in the car and started driving. My wife and I spent two years taking turns driving all around the north side of chicago.

On the other hand, my wife would often have to take all 3 kids with her grocery shopping (there was no one to leave them with when I was working), carrying one in a snuggly, the others in a grocery cart, and pulling another cart for the groceries.

People--mostly other mothers--were very nice to her, for which I am eternally grateful.

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[English Lady]

*thinks Dr M was peeking in on me a few nights ago*


you're right Dr M...totally right. I know that feeling where all else has failed and all I want to do is cry.

Also I am very appreiciative(picking up on things ogg and gauche mentioned) of anyone who will distract my little girl when she is getting whiny and starting to throw a wobbler. Beth is a very social little mite and she loves attention so someone distracting her works really well and I say God bless to all those strangers i meet on a daily basis who interact with my little ray of sunshine and keep her amused. Shopping otherwise would be a million times worse than it is!

 

[Guest]

Mab., I loved the Klezmer bit. I was lucky to have babies that slept well, but had a friend whose daughter, for a full year, only slept in a moving vehicle, so she and hubby also took turns driving around the city.

I'm glad for Gauche's brief post. I too wondered where the basic charity was in that scene and why no one else thought to attend to the child. Putting aside the mother's demeanor, all children of that age are still innocent, even when acting out obnoxiously. I'm certain a gentle confrontation with a stranger-adult would have worked wonders. I too get irked over bratty kids but when possible I like to help out moms in public and have never found offence taken.


p.s. Yes, I too had those times when I could have thrown my baby or toddlerr out the window. Can't really explain why I didn't, but doesn't matter now.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I don't see children like little angels. On the contrary. They are cretures of 100% selfishness. When a baby is born, it's not aware of anything other than itself. Its needs, its pain, its comfort. Slowly, as it grows and develops, it becomes aware of the fact that there are other human beings in this world.
Even slower, it begins to learn that those people are not there to wait on the child.
A kid of 3 is in that process.

Kids are neither innocent nor guilty. Neither angels nor devils.

Just very, very self-absorbed creatures.

I don't feel sorry for the kid for not getting the toy he wanted, nor he candy he wanted.

I feel sorry for him for having a mother who doesn't realize that a child needs firm boundaries in order to feel safe. Discipline doesn't make a child feel un-loved.

 

[Guest]

Flicka, I don't see children as little angels either, and yes they are utterly self-absorbed (vs. selfish), they are supposed to be. It takes time, among so many other factors, for them to learn about the world beyond their egos. I don't feel pity for a child who does not get what it wants, but I don't condemn it for feeling what it feels. I was not using innocence as a judgmental word; charity yes.

Perdita