Pagan Corner

[sensualpilgrim]

Heya, I was wondering, how those who consider themselves pagans view Satanists or other LHPers?
--I've never met a Satanist who both knew what manners were and chose to use them. So all the ones I've met and all the Satanic Web sites I've seen have been rude, nasty, and arrogant "I know more than thou dost" spews.

Pagans exclude Satanists from their self-definitions for many reasons.

1. Most conservative Christians love to spit out the lie that we worship Satan.

2. Most Pagan codes of morality directly conflict with Satanist ones (specifically thinking Wiccan Rede vs. Laveyan Satanism here). Most Pagans don't believe in doing evil to others who do them evil, e.g. I don't know of any Satanist who would agree with that.

3. Satan is a figure from Christian mythos. Paganism encompasses many myths, but not the Christian myth. Simple as that.

Confusing the story even futher, Christian Satan is a almost direct copy of Zoroaster's idea of evil god who create the material world in contrast to good god who create the spiritual world. That's why, the Zoroasterians leave body out for the birds, because the body is bad. Almost everything in Judism, Christianity and Islam can be directly traced back to Persia (Iran). That's not all! Satan as a word didn't start as a name of evil, it mean just "foe" or"challenger." "Demons" came from"dameons" which the greeks believed are the spirits of creativity and genius who help their humans become great heros or artists. In other word, deamons are more like angels! O, the twisted paths!

 

[curious2c]

I have been doing some thinking on Paganism for the last weeks. While at work on night shift just a few days ago I realized that Paganism gave birth to Christianity in as many Pagan rites and celebrations had to be used to help Christianity succeed in those days.

After more thought I came to realize that in many religions, a male Diety is worshipped over a female or a combination. It seems to me that the hunter/gatherer (male) was a bit...jealous of his position in life and wanted to be the boss so to speak.

More thought led me to the realization that in ancient times, Celtic beliefs were quite different than many around them. Women had lands and power as well as men. Power was also shared...well sort of anyway. A woman could be a warrior or a queen, a mistress or a partner. Marriage was not an important event as much as agreeing to be with each other for a year and a day.

Satanism tends to be a selfish self involved belief. One that I cannot accept in my heart. I do have moments of selfishness, but for the most part I like to see everyone succeed in their endeavours.

Single diety based religions tend to be...overboard in their direction, much like what you see in the press today. Muslims against Christians, being most prominent as of late. (not all, but it seems some of the more out spoken)

Raised in the beliefs of the Assembly of God church, I have found that Celtic Paganism holds more truth for me than what I was brought up with. When I would ask a question of Pagans or other beliefs I was told that Pagans worshiped the devil/satan. I accepted that as fact since not only was the minister saying that, but my parents, sisters, friends...so on and so forth.

Now, at the age of forty-six I have discovered that perhaps well meaning though they were, they (parents and relatives and friends) have all been so misled for so long that the 'belief' has become doctrine.

I will never tell my mother that I am a Pagan. I believe that she will see what I am and what I believe when she passes over on her journey and realize that I have found my own path. I also believe that my father, (already on that other journey) and my mother will understand and support my beliefs too.

My heart speaks to me far easier now than even just a few years ago. There, I know my answers and can finally see my path in life. Perhaps in my ancestory (Irish, Scotch, German, and Danish) I have persons who actually were priests or smiths or shamans in Celtic ways. I 'feel' so much more and things seem to spring into my face at the most strangest times now.

I also feel very connected and grounded.

Hmmm...




I seem to have been rambling again...geez I'm good at that it seems.

 

[sex200561]

Morning All

 

[likeitmatt]

The current best seller, The DiVinci Code in addition to being a very exciting read concerns a hero who is an authority on religious symbalism. If you are interested in the influence of pagen religion on christianity, dive into it

 

[curious2c]

Yes, not only an eye opener, very good read too. He wrote another book..."Angels and Demons". His depth of research is pretty astounding. Dan Brown is a great writer. Someday I hope I am able to write half as good...well better...but heh...you know...

 

[likeitmatt]

Yes, not only an eye opener, very good read too. He wrote another book..."Angels and Demons". His depth of research is pretty astounding. Dan Brown is a great writer. Someday I hope I am able to write half as good...well better...but heh...you know...

Yes I devoured all his books. Good luck on your efforts

 

[PoliteSuccubus]

I'm sorry it's taken me a while to get back here and answer some of the questions directed at me. And because it's been so long I'm not going to pull up the quotes and stuff that I usually do but just ramble on. I hope you'll forgive me this. (pre-coffee rant, ran out of coffee)

Christan Wicca. What an oxymoron right? Two different paths that couldn't possibly go together. But for me, it feels right.

If you look at modern Christan churches you'll see that they are only lightly Christan. They mostly follow the old testament to pull their anti-whatever bias from.

Christ hung out with Ethiopians (blacks), prostitutes, tax collectors, dead people, etc. He urged people to turn the other cheek, give back to others, etc. There is an on-going controversy that Paul the Apostle was homosexual. (Please note than not a single new testament writer thought homosexuality was important enough to write about.)

While Christ lived as a man he lived strictly under the laws of Moses as a Jew. Even Mary, who knew he'd been conceived immaculately, scarified two doves after his birth for the "sin" of his conception as per Jewish law.

But, when he died and rose again the new age started, and he was no longer bound by those laws and neither were we. We were judged by the tenets set down by Christ.

Now, what does this have to do with Wicca?

Since God created everything then God is in everything. Not just people, but everything. Dogma states that the earth is for our use, but people have taken it too far into mis-use. We haven't cared for it as we should.

I feel more connected to God in a grove of trees than I do in a church, and in fact until the time of Solomon there were no permanent buildings as churches only tents in the wilderness.

And isn't it odd that the Catholic church dislikes the thought of pagans calling on many gods when they have saints they pray to? And the saints are dedicated to one or two aspects. Some of the most common being Mary, Jude and Christopher.

As a Christan I never felt comfortable praying to a saint, and as a Wiccan I don't feel comfortable praying to goddess/god. I go straight for the head honcho and pray to God; the creator.

Both religions have their trinity: The Creator, The Male (Christ) and the Female (Holy Ghost).

Both light candles and incense as part of their ceremonies, eat and drink, sing and dance.

I tried turning fully Wiccan once. It didn't go well for me. I felt uncomfortable out of place. And things did not go as well for me as they usually do. I felt cut off from the divine.

I tried turning fully Christan too. I felt cut off from the spiritual world of Earth, and the connections my earthly body had with the world. I felt as if I was denying a part of God's creation.

A lot of people make a lot of fuss over the pagan and Christan rituals blending. I say YAY! More!

I am a bridge between the earth my body came from, and the God who created my soul.

 

[Pinnochio]

I know this is a tad off topic, but am curous on other peoples views.

I was watching a show the other night "Six Feet Under - First episode'". The shows main characters views seemed interesting; he voiced the importance of releasings ones emotions and not holding them back.

I think women have much more a grasp on this that men do, society seems to frown on men who show their emotions, etc. crying.

I myself enjoy a sad movie and a good cry, its like a great stress relief.

Why do you all think about this? Women seem much more stable emotionaly because of the ability to share and release their emotions.

Just curious?

Hugz
Pinnochio

 

[PoliteSuccubus]

You should start a thread and ask everyone there, P.

 

[curious2c]

Does anyone know...the proximity of Mars being so close for the first time in so many thousands of years...and coming close to fall. Is there influence from this that hasn't been seen? Um...let me put this a different way...heh...Could we be seeing magickal things that are not normally seen with this advent? I am thinking so...at least as far as Mars has influence over certain ritual...but how much. I haven't been able to find anything much on this astronomical event as applied to Paganism.




edited to add...

Seems like everytime I figure I am getting something down pretty good, something new comes along and causes me to rethink things. Sheesh! (not that it is a bad thing...I guess.)

 

[PoliteSuccubus]

Mars is the god of war.


Wars and rumors of war.

 

[sensualpilgrim]

Yes, not only an eye opener, very good read too. He wrote another book..."Angels and Demons". His depth of research is pretty astounding. Dan Brown is a great writer. Someday I hope I am able to write half as good...well better...but heh...you know...

I woud also recommend Tim Freke's "The Jesus Mysteries: Was Jesus a pagan God?" which is an excellent look at Christian roots in Pagan Mysteries.

 

[Image]

Thanks Pilgrim... I will definitely look for that book
And I have a recommendation for everyone also...
"God and the Evolving Universe" by James Redfield/Michael Murphy/Sylvia Timbers. (the guide to literature in the back is worth it by itself... 100's of books listed)

Curious, you say you feel so much more and things seem to spring into your face at the most strangest of times.

I understand what you mean... I believe you are awakening. It starts off (usually) as a gradual thing and then it seems like a whirlwind, upward spiral you're on, spinning so fast, but not out of control. There are split seconds where, everything makes sense and then just as quickly it escapes you (I call it sensucht) ... and everywhere you look and everyone you meet is relative to your journey.

The whole group conciousness is swinging in the same direction and the people and events coming into your life are in the same stage of spiritual evolution... The above mentiooned book deals specifically with this phenomenon as well as the last question/statement you posed

Image

 

[curious2c]

*snip*

I understand what you mean... I believe you are awakening. It starts off (usually) as a gradual thing and then it seems like a whirlwind, upward spiral you're on, spinning so fast, but not out of control. There are split seconds where, everything makes sense and then just as quickly it escapes you (I call it sensucht) ... and everywhere you look and everyone you meet is relative to your journey.

*snip*
Image

This is pretty close to what I have been experiencing Image. Seems like knowledge is...um...volumetrically cramming into my mind but with clarity and consiceness. I was at work the other night and began a journey there that was quite...different. I saw things in the world around me, like in the pumps I worked on, the building I was in, how certain things were working that all related to things I have learned about Paganism. Eye-opening to say the least. Later, as I got ready for bed I read some more from the book "Celtic Myth's and Magic" (published by Lewellyn) the Circumstances of my leave taking from work this time caused me to have to leave it in my room. The authors name escapes me at the moment...I want to give proper credit...I guess it will have to wait until I get the book back in hand though.

Anyway, as I read from this book I saw many things in the history of Celtic Paganism, those 'decorative' things that had actual meanings. Then I pictured in my mind the things at work I had seen that day that put me into that 'spiral'. It was like at some deep inner point...I knew this all already, but just then had it hit me like the proverbial ton of bricks. Kind of like...'I knew that...I knew that!'

Mars being so close and so...present in our minds has been provoking thoughts in my mind for the last several weeks. It's like I know that there has to be a very special purpose for this closeness at this time...yet can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe it is the closeness of the new moon to the closeness of Mars at the same time...just know that there is something important about all of this.

Frustrating to me to not be able to put my finger right on the feeling I have...but interesting at the same time. I guess that with my newness to Paganism and all I have yet to learn, plus all the things that have been occuring to me or around me has put me on an 'edge' of sorts. Perhaps some intense meditations or a ritual or two will bring significance to me. Heh...one can only hope.

I will try to find the books mentioned by you and sensualpilgrim. I am in your debt for the new informational reading. I just wish I had that Celtic book on myths and magick. It had quite a few ancient stories on the Gods...I am sure I read some about Mars in there too.


So much so fast.

 

[ethereal~minx]

....The whole group conciousness is swinging in the same direction and the people and events coming into your life are in the same stage of spiritual evolution...

You are right on.
c2c, you are awakening and it is sooo wonderful~~ I am just sitting here with this tremendous smile for you, for us (humanity)...this is a wonderful transformative time in our lives!!!

I am SO happy to read this.
a few sites & authors of great interest to me have been--

Articles from the Heart by Alan Cohen http://www.alancohen.com/html/articles.html

planetlightworker.com

edited to add: God to me is LOVE --the energy, synergy of all of us knowing and being true to our heart, in our integrity, beings of higher power... not outside of ourselves, but one with all, all that is~~ ALL THAT WE ARE as we journey in this 'time'

 

[sensualpilgrim]

Thanks Pilgrim... I will definitely look for that book

I would stress that it is a history book and that it will be found in general Christianity section of the stores.

 

[Image]

Frustrating it may be, to not be able to "put your finger on it". But... it is incredibly stimulating as well.

For me it means a yearning, a longing... making my heart race with anticipation...

I have a question/favor (way off topic and don't laugh)

How the fuck do you just "quote" partial posts of others? (ie last post of Etherial) I've tried everything and don't want to make a further fool of myself...
Love ya all,
Image

 

[Image]

I would stress that it is a history book and that it will be found in general Christianity section of the stores.

Why do I smile so wide?

How about the library in a VERY small town in the Bible belt? That was the plan tomorrow... actually they have, what I call, "The Wall O' Jesus", and I was going to look to check it out.

 

[sensualpilgrim]

How the fuck do you just "quote" partial posts of others? (ie last post of Etherial) I've tried everything and don't want to make a further fool of myself...
Love ya all,
Image

You click on "quto". When you get a window open you clcik on the text box first to make your mouse jump there. Then you highlight the part you don't want to quto and hit delete key. That's it!

 

[curious2c]

As sensualpilgrim wrote, you hit quote and then highlight what you do not want. Um...I like to put in the *snip* so that people realize that I did somewhat make a change to that qoute.

Growing up in a very small Montana town, I realize now just how ingrained Christian thought is. I can look back and remember how I would ask certain questions on things about Paganism, history of Ireland, and other...off the wall things. I was actually kicked out of the Lutheran church's confirmation classes because of my questions, that the minister would not answer. Perhaps he didn't have the knowledge, perhaps he did. I didn't ask the questions to get him angry or be a smart ass...I really wanted to know.

Later in life I lived in Billings Montana and had a brush with Satan worshipers...whom I thought were a bit strange to begin with and also quite selfish. They couldn't answer my questions about Paganism other than what they knew about their religion. I let it drop then and for quite a few years I would wonder about things but never really dig into those questions since the questions seemed to make people quite uncomfortable.

There was one other time, in a talk with a Catholic Priest...he crossed himself several times and tried to turn my questions around, saying what I wasn't asking, but making it sound like I was wrong for asking.

My parents had been through the questions with me and they tried to answer as best they could, but their whole knowledge basis was from the Christian right and pretty...um...stern on how or what the Pagan's worshipped and how wrong they were.

Looking with eyes newly opened and seeing for the first time the answers to my questions, I find that certain beliefs have been indoctrinated and driven into the minds of people to the point that anything different cannot be right or true.

I have yet to dedicate myself to Paganism...Having more to learn before I perform the ritual. My wife has had some concerns with my...choices...as she puts it. I think she thinks that I am doing the 'middle-aged-crazy' thing or something. (pretty sure I'm not)

I'm not throwing away anything I have learned from Christianity either...I am just making a concious desicion to walk in my chosen path, which I feel the the correct one and the right time for me to journey on.

I can understand the earth's need for balance and it's striving to keep things that way. I can understand man's need to learn and change things to suit them. (by man I mean humans) I can see a balance that could be acheived and also results of when balance isn't made a part of the big picture. I also believe that man has a long way to go to understand nature fully and comprehend actions and reactions within the confines of this earth.

I am not saying that man should not use what is given for use. I am not saying that we should all join Green Peace or other enviromental organizations...I think that we deep down inside ourselves can see when the balance isn't occuring. We either try to change it for the better or ignore it at our cost.

I know that my path will not be smooth and clear of obstacles and even dangers, but that is what makes life...interesting. It is how one learns to cope with change which is always ongoing. Nature abhores a vaccum, and change is inevitable. The God and Goddess can help one on the path to the next plane of life, if the one chooses to accept that help.

Within each person on earth there is the right/wrong good/bad sense of life. I think that if one is in balance and tries to maintain that balance they will see that nature (The Goddess) not only shows the path clearly, She also lends a hand as needed. All one need do is ask. The next level of life is one that requires one to be in balance, before they travel there. Perhaps each successive step brings one closer to the ultimate end of the journey, but here on earth we are far from being there yet.

Everyone needs to follow their own path to reach the next level. If that is following the Christian God or Buddah, or Allah...then so be it. Enlightenment can be obtained on many levels in many ways...at least that is what I have discovered. I believe that is a human condition. Greater beings have instilled in each of us a path or network and when we...um...get in the groove understanding comes post haste.

Damn...rambling again...heh

Early morning and new paths combine to make me a rambler.

 

[curious2c]

OOPS!

 

[curious2c]

What can I say...it is pretty early in the morning here.

 

[curious2c]

Behold my impatience shows.

 

[Image]

[. Then you highlight the part you don't want to quto and hit delete key. That's it! [/B]

Wow! Like that?

Thanks

 

[PoliteSuccubus]

Here's a great quote:

"There is a difference between a religion which has rituals, strict adherence to rules, and one centered in a relationship with God. That is why Jesus upset the Pharisees, the religious fundamentalist zealots of his day."