Pagan Corner

[Never]

So, you're like the bisexuals of the gay community and the switches of the BDSM community? I think it's important to remember that most newly created communities feel the need to define in strict and unbending terms what they are and (perhaps, more importantly) what they are not. While that's understandable, I think it's also important for a community to realize that if they want to grow and 'blossom' they'll eventually have to discard that definition.

Think how different history would be if the Roman Catholic church had decided that all you needed to do to be a 'good' Christian was believe in Jesus and try to follow his examples. I mean, the first Inquisitions weren't against witches or Jews but 'heretical' Christians.

About the links: no problems. Take your time, I'll check back here periodically.

 

[ubertroll]

Think how different history would be if the Roman Catholic church had decided that all you needed to do to be a 'good' Christian was believe in Jesus and try to follow his examples. I mean, the first Inquisitions weren't against witches or Jews but 'heretical' Christians.

Thats because the early Catholic church [and just about every other kind of Catholic church, prior to the Second Vatican COuncil's retraction of the charge of Deicide] didn't think it NEEDED an occassion to repress or massacre Jews.

 

[Rhys]

Satanism is a valid religion. Just like Paganism/Wicca and Christianity it also has its various sects and dogmas. The two I am most familiar with are The Church of Satan (Anton La Vey) and The Temple of the Set. Then, there are the bored Baptist kids in the cemetary with the LSD, a knife and a chicken. Satanism tends to be self oriented, and with the exception of Temple of the Set, rather glamour oriented. I tend to associate it with artists like Marilyn Manson, who I think are into it for the shock value and less into the actual tenets.

Wicca has more than a few leaves on its tree as well. There is Gardernarian Witchcraft, with its emphasis on ritual and degrees, Bucklandian, from which the famous "skyclad" concept comes from. Crowley who was a mage and philosopher...who Gardner and Buckland also incorporated into their belief systems...Celtic/Scottish/Pictish/Fey Magic traditons from Britain and France, Hereditary forms ala Raven Grimassi who discusses Strega and the beliefs of Italian witches...Z. Budapest who leads covens primarily interested in Feminine and Hungarian traditional witchcraft....and the list just goes on and on. Sometimes asking a witch what he or she believes is a little like asking the same of a Catholic and a Protestant. You'll get a basic response like "Do is thou wilt but harm non" but everything after that is up to the individual.

Some Pagans have distinctive Christian leanings like PS. Others worship multiple gods and goddesses...I am thinking of the Voudoun of Hati who see a corellary between Catholic saints and their own pantheon of loa. Others have a patron God or Goddess... for myself I am a follower of Pan and Kuan Yin. The basic idea is that all gods and goddesses are one (which is monothesim at its finest) but they are all aspects of the whole.

Its late and I am rambling

I will come back and finish tomarrow

 

[Pinnochio]

Thanks Image for the feedback, I am glad you liked my story. I am trying to figure out an idea for my next one.

Hugs
Pinnochio

 

[ethereal~minx]

terribly unsatisfied w/ post.
must organize thoughts.
grrrr.


very interesting thread this is : )
thankyou!!!

 

[Kassiana]

Heya, I was wondering, how those who consider themselves pagans view Satanists or other LHPers?
--I've never met a Satanist who both knew what manners were and chose to use them. So all the ones I've met and all the Satanic Web sites I've seen have been rude, nasty, and arrogant "I know more than thou dost" spews.

Pagans exclude Satanists from their self-definitions for many reasons.

1. Most conservative Christians love to spit out the lie that we worship Satan.

2. Most Pagan codes of morality directly conflict with Satanist ones (specifically thinking Wiccan Rede vs. Laveyan Satanism here). Most Pagans don't believe in doing evil to others who do them evil, e.g. I don't know of any Satanist who would agree with that.

3. Satan is a figure from Christian mythos. Paganism encompasses many myths, but not the Christian myth. Simple as that.

 

[Image]

Heya, I was wondering, how those who consider themselves pagans view Satanists or other LHPers?
--I've never met a Satanist who both knew what manners were and chose to use them. So all the ones I've met and all the Satanic Web sites I've seen have been rude, nasty, and arrogant "I know more than thou dost" spews.

Pagans exclude Satanists from their self-definitions for many reasons.

1. Most conservative Christians love to spit out the lie that we worship Satan.

2. Most Pagan codes of morality directly conflict with Satanist ones (specifically thinking Wiccan Rede vs. Laveyan Satanism here). Most Pagans don't believe in doing evil to others who do them evil, e.g. I don't know of any Satanist who would agree with that.

3. Satan is a figure from Christian mythos. Paganism encompasses many myths, but not the Christian myth. Simple as that.

Thanks for the post Kassiana...

I spent a lot of time and energy researching, however briefly, Satanism yesterday and I did learn something I didn't know (so that is always good).

Apparently Satanists don't worship Satan... they worship themselves and all material possessions. Not my cup of tea but to each his own. I'm not so sure it serves the purpose of religion, in that it really doesn't offer a way to reconnect with divinity, but whatever... maybe it is only supposed to offer a moral code of conduct (similar to Confucianism) but that doesn't seem right either. Is morality in the eye of the beholder then?

Because following my own system of thought there is no good or evil... so where does one draw the line on what is moral or not? I cannot in all honesty put down Satanism... but I probably wouldn't chose one as a lover, that selfish shit, ya know

I still wasn't able to conclude in fact that it was an "officially recognized" religion... anyone can call themselves
The Church of... You would think it would be one of the things they would be proud of and claim it in the FAQ section but I was not able to find anything to support that. Anyway...

I am curious though about PC's stance... A Christian Wiccan seems contradictory. Christian Witch is not an oxymoron but, and according to a certain dictionary entry, Christian Pagan would be. (I am not about to argue semantics here, the dictionary entry in question completely shoots itself down with each definition cancelling another one out)

I guess what I'm saying is that although both Christianity and Wicce share several of the same views on living, they differ greatly on some issues. Though we can agree (and I certainly do, I have invoked Jesus as the god in a circle I had) with tenets from both sides, the main difference is Wiccans do not believe in the Devil but Christians do... so I guess I'm thinking this is one issue that is an either/or. A deal breaker, so to speak and I wonder how that is reconciled...

Now in all my experience with PC on this board I have never known her to be anything but kind, gentle, considerate, intelligent and incredibly insightful. so whatever she wants to call herself it seems to be working... but PC, I would love to hear your thoughts on this...

And afterall that's what it's all about no matter what religion or philosophy one chooses

.... And finally I know what a LPH'r is Now that wouldn't imply that there are RPH'rs, would it? (As in the right or correct or only way?) Maybe we should strive to be MPH'rs... but is that a term?

 

[Never]

Image:
".... And finally I know what a LPH'r is Now that wouldn't imply that there are RPH'rs, would it? (As in the right or correct or only way?) Maybe we should strive to be MPH'rs... but is that a term?"

You're assuming that LPHers view their religion as wrong. Wait, maybe you're saying that a RHP would view only their religion as right? That's not correct.

Yes, there are RHPers and you're one of them as evidenced by this:
" I'm not so sure it serves the purpose of religion, in that it really doesn't offer a way to reconnect with divinity, but whatever..."

If you see religion as a way to "reconnect with divinity" then you're taking a RHP while if you're talking about "deification of self" then you're taking a LHP. Of course, there's the basic difference and then there's the stereotype. "All RHP are moralistic, all LHP are immoral, all RHP are 'feel good', all LHP are 'dark and moody', all RHP are tree-huggers, and all LHP are angsty teens."

As for a MHP, in important aspects a person or religion typically takes one or the other sides but there are always grey areas.

" I still wasn't able to conclude in fact that it was an "officially recognized" religion... anyone can call themselves The Church of... You would think it would be one of the things they would be proud of and claim it in the FAQ section but I was not able to find anything to support that. Anyway..."

I can give you the link to over a dozen wiccan and pagan sites that don't mention they're part of an officially recognized religion. But, yes, satanism has been recognized since the 1970s.

 

[Image]

Image:
".... And finally I know what a LPH'r is Now that wouldn't imply that there are RPH'rs, would it? (As in the right or correct or only way?) Maybe we should strive to be MPH'rs... but is that a term?"

You're assuming that LPHers view their religion as wrong. Wait, maybe you're saying that a RHP would view only their religion as right? That's not correct.

Yes, there are RHPers and you're one of them as evidenced by this:
" I'm not so sure it serves the purpose of religion, in that it really doesn't offer a way to reconnect with divinity, but whatever..."

If you see religion as a way to "reconnect with divinity" then you're taking a RHP while if you're talking about "deification of self" then you're taking a LHP. Of course, there's the basic difference and then there's the stereotype. "All RHP are moralistic, all LHP are immoral, all RHP are 'feel good', all LHP are 'dark and moody', all RHP are tree-huggers, and all LHP are angsty teens."

As for a MHP, in important aspects a person or religion typically takes one or the other sides but there are always grey areas.

" I still wasn't able to conclude in fact that it was an "officially recognized" religion... anyone can call themselves The Church of... You would think it would be one of the things they would be proud of and claim it in the FAQ section but I was not able to find anything to support that. Anyway..."

I can give you the link to over a dozen wiccan and pagan sites that don't mention they're part of an officially recognized religion. But, yes, satanism has been recognized since the 1970s.

OK, so what is your thought on why we have religion? You seem like an intelligent individual... instead of arguing my posts I'd like to hear your perspectives.

But I really don't understand your thinking on LHP vs RHP... Reunification with deity and deification of oneself is not a seperate adventure at all... maybe in the way you miscontrued my words it, it is however... Please don't put words in my mouth. That circular type logic is best spent on someone else, my lifetime left is way too short.

As for your last paragraph... It's irrelevant. I didn't ask for dozens of sites that don't claim Wicce's status. I asked for a solid statement of "officiality" concerning Satanism not your word for it (again). I'm not denying it. I'm just saying I hadn't seen it...

Wonders who you are angry with...
Image

 

[Pinnochio]

I am not a guru on the subject or anything; but the reason I have chosen Paganism as study topic is because I find that many Pagans are more relaxed and in touch with themselves as individuals. It seems that the Pagan ways are more in touch with nature. I may be wrong here, I am currently reading a book on Wiccan beliefs, so I apologize if I missinterpreted these things.

Of the people I have met who of the Pagan ways, they seem willing to accept me as a person; where many Christians, Catholics, etc have trouble treating me as a smart and coherent person because I am a little different than they are. Maybe its just the people I meet, but this sems to be true.

I guess about the topic of an actual defined religion; I have always believed that every person has the right to beleive or disbelieve whatever they want. As long as people dont start preaching and fighting over why their right and I am wrong I will accept them as a friend. It's all really a form of judgement, if you choose to judge a person by their beleifs, appearance, etc. you wont find many friends. But if you stop and actually listen you may learn to love people for who they are, that Is what I try to do.

I just wanted to share my thoughts and feelings.

'Group Hug'

Pinnochio

 

[Image]

Ideally everyone's ego would reflect those sentiments...
There are variable apples in all faiths. (watching my absolutes )

Christianity, the way Jesus taught it, was as deep of a nature religion as any of the other polytheistic philosophies. He had a profound relationship with the elements and magick. His spirituality was primal and grounded and he found vitality in the energies of the natural world.

Pinnochio, you are a deep and insightful human being and I am glad to have made your aquaintance.

 

[Never]

Image:
"OK, so what is your thought on why we have religion?"

That's a difficult question as 'why' someone is religious depends on the person. People find security in religion as it often deals with the "unknown" part of existence, people like the stability they associate with its traditions, others like the personal connections it provides, others the pleasure of spiritual communion, others the self-betterment it can lead to, others the philosophical and moral framework it provides, and others the sense of fulfillment, or even ecstasy, religious expressions can provide.

" …instead of arguing my posts I'd like to hear your perspectives."
I wasn't arguing with you in the post you just quoted, you said you briefly researched satanism online and I was answering the questions you had.

"…But I really don't understand your thinking on LHP vs RHP"
I gave you the standard answer as to what a LHP is and what a RHP is.

" Reunification with deity and deification of oneself is not a separate adventure at all"
You stated that satanists worshiped themselves as opposed to reconnecting with a deity. You drew the distinction before I even gave you the standard definition of LHP vs RHP.

" Please don't put words in my mouth."
What words did I put in your mouth? Do you not believe that you're trying to connect with a deity? Or are you saying you worship yourself? Or neither? Or both?

" That circular type logic is best spent on someone else, my lifetime left is way too short."
I'd appreciate it if you pointed out my circular logic, as I do not see it. I agree that life is short but, to me, that's why spending time asking these questions is important.

" I asked for a solid statement of "officiality" concerning Satanism not your word for it (again)."
Of course: http://www.xeper.org/maquino/nm/ArmyRelig/ArmyChap-TempleSet.pdf

I am not certain why you think it's important that satanism be officially recognized. How religious is a person who can only feel complete when the government has issued them a piece of paper?


"Wonders who you are angry with..."
I'm sorry that you view my posts as being angry. They certainly were not meant to be.

 

[Pyper]

3. Satan is a figure from Christian mythos. Paganism encompasses many myths, but not the Christian myth. Simple as that.

I'm curious-- why not? Is it a less valid mythos than Buddhism, Voodoo, Greek mythology, or Hinduism (all of which I have seen mentioned in this thread in relation to modern paganism)?

 

[Never]

You know, this is the last thread I expected to see you on.

 

[Pyper]

You know, this is the last thread I expected to see you on.

It's a topic of great interest to me. All religion is actually, but for anthropological reasons, not spiritual. I lurk in here occasionally to see what people are talking about.

 

[Never]

What anthropological reasons?

As for your question, I'm assuming that many early neo-pagans considered Christianity an oppressive and hostile force. The idea that you might believe in an ideology that was responsible for the execution of several thousand of your spiritual 'ancestors'. Much like the way a Jew might not embrace the Muslim mythology.

I'm certain it was just filtered down to other neo-pagans.

 

[Never]

Concerning relations between pagans and Christians. I used to spend times in an RPG chat room where quite a few neo-pagans congregated. They disliked how their family, friends, and society always expected them to be Christian on holidays and, inevitably, during Christmas and Easter, the room would be filled with complaints.

One Easter a group of them got together and were complaining among themselves so they began describe various mean spirited activities and pranks (they were a good bunch but they were lowing off steam) that cumulated with them starting a fire and tossing in… a rabbit.

I just laughed at them.

 

[Pyper]

What anthropological reasons?

As for your question, I'm assuming that many early neo-pagans considered Christianity an oppressive and hostile force. The idea that you might believe in an ideology that was responsible for the execution of several thousand of your spiritual 'ancestors'. Much like the way a Jew might not embrace the Muslim mythology.

I'm certain it was just filtered down to other neo-pagans.

Anthropology views religion as a function of culture. Cultural anthropologists research and speculate on aspects of religion and how they were formed by or are related to their culture of origin. The cultural phenomenon of the surge of neo-paganism is very interesting from this point of view.

 

[Image]

I'm curious-- why not? Is it a less valid mythos than Buddhism, Voodoo, Greek mythology, or Hinduism (all of which I have seen mentioned in this thread in relation to modern paganism)?

One word... dualism

The Xtian myth is no less valid... that was not implied. I think she said it just wasn't encompassed.

 

[Never]

Pyper:
"The cultural phenomenon of the surge of neo-paganism is very interesting from this point of view."

How so? Are you interested in what it reflects in western society? In the sudden emergence of religion in general?

What do you think of the phenomenon so far?

 

[Kassiana]

I'm curious-- why not? Is it a less valid mythos than Buddhism, Voodoo, Greek mythology, or Hinduism (all of which I have seen mentioned in this thread in relation to modern paganism)?

Nothing to do with validity, hon. It's part of the definition of Pagan in almost every Pagan source I've seen. Saying that something is an apple doesn't mean that you're putting down oranges.

As for the "be Christian or else, damn it" thing that some get from their families...well, my parents are agnostics and don't care, my husband's parents are liberal Christian and fluffy new age Witch so they don't care either, and of the rest of my and his family I think we have one conservative Christian branch that live way out in North Carolina. We don't mind that.

Satanists may not worship Satan (due to LaVey's desire to make a controversial attention getting religion), but the fact that the name is what it is inevitably means that conservative Christians will think that they worship Satan. Of course, they also think liberal Christians, Buddhists, atheists, Hindus, Pagans, etc. worship Satan........

 

[sensualpilgrim]

Wondering...

I'm a Christan Wiccan, Ozraven.

The plaid sheep, as it were. *laughs*

The main focus is to find harmony in yourself, and radiate it inward and outward via a connection with the earth.

I am not exactly polytheistic, because I worship God the creator. But I don't frown on people who do, because it helps them get in touch with God in their own unique way.

I wonder if there are such thing as gnostic Catholic group, especially when the gnostics understood the Christian myths to be nothing at all different from "pagan."

 

[sensualpilgrim]

I've only known one, and he was a nice guy in the venue I knew him.

But I tend to stay away from people like that if I can. In Christan doctrine (which Satanist have to believe in to some extent) Lucifer was on the left hand of God and Jesus on his right. Lucifer wanted things to be easy for the humans, nothing would be wrong, there would be no sin. God decided, and Jesus agreed, that there would be tests and sin etc. Otherwise what would be the point, it would be just like heaven.

They fought, and Lucifer was cast down with his followers out of heaven.

So a true Satanist isn't "evil" per say, but thinks that nothing should be a sin. But just as Bible thumpers give Christianity a bad name there are a lot of satanists who perverted the basic and made it into something else.

A lot of people who are drawn to that sort of life are looking for power over others, etc. And that is simply not the kind of person I want to hang around with. There are, of course, exceptions. But just like I don't listen to rap music for the one good song, I don't attend satanists rituals looking for a few nice folks.

You know it sounds strikingly like the Mormon story of the Creation and the Fall. The difference is that Satan and Jesus are brothers, spirit sons of God (who have a human body now divine) and their debates was on how to enable all those God's children (products of His many wives) to become gods and goddesses with their own worlds and spirit children. I wonder if that LeFray picked it up from the Mormon books?

 

[sensualpilgrim]

Thats because the early Catholic church [and just about every other kind of Catholic church, prior to the Second Vatican COuncil's retraction of the charge of Deicide] didn't think it NEEDED an occassion to repress or massacre Jews.

Making the whole relationship more stranger, the Church's authorities often protect the Jews from pogroms is that 1) if the jews are all dead, then what happened to the whole idea of Father's alway keeping his promises? and 2) because the conon law forrid Christians from collecting interest on loans, the Church need a middleman who can do the banking and who is not a christian, so the jews get the job. This is where the close association of the jews with finance really started, since they can't do simple things like..farming.

 

[Never]

You know it sounds strikingly like the Mormon story of the Creation and the Fall. The difference is that Satan and Jesus are brothers, spirit sons of God (who have a human body now divine) and their debates was on how to enable all those God's children (products of His many wives) to become gods and goddesses with their own worlds and spirit children. I wonder if that LeFray picked it up from the Mormon books?

LeVay actually blatantly plagiarized a book called "Will to Power" when he wrote "The Satanic Bible". He would take whole pages of the book and change a few words.