Overlap between mind control and non-con? And rules regarding it

[cunninghamtales]

So I have been working for a while on a story series (and not wanting to post it on here until every part is done, as I'm a very slow writer and wouldn't expect anyone to wait around for months for the next chapter), which plays with the idea of mind control. I love the genre, but one of the more interesting(/potentially troubling) things to me about it is that it's another form of non-consent, in a way. Obviously, the mind control category doesn't usually explore that side of things, but I feel like it could be interesting to delve into that.
My question is though, where does this fall within the site's rules? Can a mind control story push more obviously into non-con territory without needing to swap categories? And could a story, be it categorised as mind control or non-con, explore the idea of consequences for the controller's actions? Or would doing so push outside the boundaries of what's accepted under the rules? I know there's a general non-con guideline that the victim must get some enjoyment/thrill from the experience, but under a mind control story could they very much enjoy it as it happens but regret it afterwards once not under that influence? Obviously whatever the rules are will be whatever I'll write my story to be

 

[lovecraft68]

Personally I don't see why MC is its own category. If you're being controlled in any way, hypnosis, drugged, something supernatural etc...then you're not giving consent hence...its non con.

So having said that I think the 'rules' are the same, and don't see why your story couldn't have repercussions for the controller regarding what they've done. Its your story.

A little warning though, the rule is so vague and enforcing it so inconsistent, its really hard for anyone here to give you a concrete answer for what would or would not fly.

 

[Voboy]

Personally, though I'm not sure what "tha Rulez" (written or unwritten) might say, I think you're probably best off downplaying the "regret it afterwards" part. I think any hint of nonconsent is best mitigated by having the woman enjoy it, both at the time and in retrospect. At least a little bit.

The rest of what you posted, OP, seems pretty right-on to me.

 

[AlinaX]

The Mind Control category frequently overlaps with Non-Con and Incest. Non-Con is more about physical coercion and blackmail, whereas Mind Control is more about mental coercion. The often magical element is a way of getting around the trauma of coercive sex, but in removing free will does reduce characters to mere ciphers. The victim coming to terms later with his/her own inexplicable abandon to pleasure is always an interesting plot line.

 

[KeithD]

Anytime I write mind control I use the theory that one can't be made to do anything under mind control that they don't really want to do. Thus, the stories really are mind control/reluctance rather than mind control/noncon and can be written up within Literotica's rules. Before anything happens I establish the character is susceptible to whatever they do under "mind control" situations.

 

[lovecraft68]

The Mind Control category frequently overlaps with Non-Con and Incest. Non-Con is more about physical coercion and blackmail, whereas Mind Control is more about mental coercion. The often magical element is a way of getting around the trauma of coercive sex, but in removing free will does reduce characters to mere ciphers. The victim coming to terms later with his/her own inexplicable abandon to pleasure is always an interesting plot line.

I don't see a lot of mind control in Taboo. I'm sure with that many stories in the category there will be some, but I don't see it as frequent. I did one which involved hypnosis, but the twist at the end was the mother wasn't 'under' and was just letting the son think he was controlling her cause...well I tend to not like to dabble in anything that for me is complete non consent.

 

[lovecraft68]

Keith's post brings to mind the question of why they have a 'non con/reluctance' category when, if we go by their rule, what they really want here is reluctance which is also referred to as dub con(dubious consent) on some pay platforms.

Seems it would eliminate a lot of these questions and unintentionally rule breaking stories if they did so because as of now its "we don't want actual non consent stories, but...have you seen our non consent category?

easy to see why this is always an issue because someone comes here and sees a NC category they're going to figure you can post rape stories, and with the less than desirable screening process a lot get through which adds more affirmation to a newbie that these stories are allowed.

This is one of those frustratingly easy fixes that the sites refusal to make leads to my thought they really don't care what's on here.

 

[SimonDoom]

Mind Control is, in principle, a form of nonconsent. It's a subset of nonconsent. Lovecraft is correct about that. The category exists because, I think, there are two different reader groups looking for different things. Logic gives way in this instance to consumer demand, as it should. The reader is what matters. Other sites often do the same thing. The fact of the matter is that the erotic story consuming public expects to see different categories with different kinds of stories.

TxTallTales' article Love Your Readers:Categories indicates that Mind Control is a flexible category, meaning you can add elements from other categories and keep it in Mind Control, but Noncon is a "trump" category, meaning if it has any noncon it should go in Noncon. This is how I would do it:

If it's mostly mind control, put it in the Mind Control category. If the story has sections with substantial and distinct elements of noncon, then the story may be put in Noncon regardless of where you want it put.

I think of noncon as being darker and grittier. Mind Control stories are often magical or whimsical. Think about the different readerships and let that be your guide.

 

[lovecraft68]

Mind Control is, in principle, a form of nonconsent. It's a subset of nonconsent. Lovecraft is correct about that. The category exists because, I think, there are two different reader groups looking for different things. Logic gives way in this instance to consumer demand, as it should. The reader is what matters. Other sites often do the same thing. The fact of the matter is that the erotic story consuming public expects to see different categories with different kinds of stories.

TxTallTales' article Love Your Readers:Categories indicates that Mind Control is a flexible category, meaning you can add elements from other categories and keep it in Mind Control, but Noncon is a "trump" category, meaning if it has any noncon it should go in Noncon. This is how I would do it:

If it's mostly mind control, put it in the Mind Control category. If the story has sections with substantial and distinct elements of noncon, then the story may be put in Noncon regardless of where you want it put.

I think of noncon as being darker and grittier. Mind Control stories are often magical or whimsical. Think about the different readerships and let that be your guide.

I think Mind control is similar to step stories in incest, its like non consent lite? Some of the flavor of it, but you can say its not real(even though none of the stories are) gives them that little bit of "well I'm not that bad" sort of not comfortable with your own kinks vibe.

I've played with MC where I used possession as the vehicle for the person doing things they would not have, however when the 'demon' took over and looked into their mind they say the pent up fantasies and pushed them to make them real so I felt I tool the edge off.

I also-for pay-created a series called the Taboo Zone a play on Twilight Zone where I set up a taboo scenario but realistically where it looks like people are going to react badly, then I break in as the Narrator like I'm the host of the show, make a couple of comments, then say "but this is the taboo zone" and they do a 360 and have fun.

I never thought of it when I wrote them I was paying homage to an old show, but a person on twitter told me they loved the mind control work around. Once they said it, I saw what they meant.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think Mind control is similar to step stories in incest, its like non consent lite? Some of the flavor of it, but you can say its not real(even though none of the stories are) gives them that little bit of "well I'm not that bad" sort of not comfortable with your own kinks vibe.

Nonconsent lite? Yes, that's exactly right. But I don't quite agree with the "not comfortable with your own kinks vibe" point. I think it's more accurate to say it's a blend of nonconsent and fantasy and it has its own distinct vibe.

For instance, I'm working (slowly and fitfully, and over years, as I so often do) on a story about a psychologist who practices in a conservative suburban community in the field of sexual dysfunction, and he comes into possession of an object (I won't say what it is) that magically enables him to hypnotize people to do sexual things. At first he resists using it, knowing that's unethical. Then he uses it out of temptation, thinking he can do good and help certain patients. Then it gets out of control and the shit hits the fan. I intend the story to have a light-hearted tone and to poke fun at people's sexual inhibitions while also trying to entertain the reader. In the end, nobody will be hurt. So, it's not at all realistic.

This isn't in any way "my kink" (but then, neither is incest, which I think is bizarre, but incredibly fun to write about, as I suspect, you do too). It's just a fun fantasy, and I think it's that way for a lot of people. It's fun to think about having that sort of control over someone, and it's fun for many to imagine being controlled to do sexual things one wouldn't do if not for the control.

 

[lovecraft68]

Nonconsent lite? Yes, that's exactly right. But I don't quite agree with the "not comfortable with your own kinks vibe" point. I think it's more accurate to say it's a blend of nonconsent and fantasy and it has its own distinct vibe.

For instance, I'm working (slowly and fitfully, and over years, as I so often do) on a story about a psychologist who practices in a conservative suburban community in the field of sexual dysfunction, and he comes into possession of an object (I won't say what it is) that magically enables him to hypnotize people to do sexual things. At first he resists using it, knowing that's unethical. Then he uses it out of temptation, thinking he can do good and help certain patients. Then it gets out of control and the shit hits the fan. I intend the story to have a light-hearted tone and to poke fun at people's sexual inhibitions while also trying to entertain the reader. In the end, nobody will be hurt. So, it's not at all realistic.

This isn't in any way "my kink" (but then, neither is incest, which I think is bizarre, but incredibly fun to write about, as I suspect, you do too). It's just a fun fantasy, and I think it's that way for a lot of people. It's fun to think about having that sort of control over someone, and it's fun for many to imagine being controlled to do sexual things one wouldn't do if not for the control.

When I say not comfortable what I mean is there are people who get upset they like certain things. We see that in comments where they're hammering taboo or Gay male or non con and the first thought is why are they there? Because they like it, read it, get off, then get mad they did.

Some people come to terms by degrees. I'll write a step mom story, but I'll never write a 'real mom' story, nope....one year later they are writing that story. I think MC and reluctance stories are some people's true kink and where they draw their moral fiction line, for others they are the stepping stones to get to full non con which may be what they've really been into all along.

Personal example, because I have daughters I swore I'd never do a father daughter story because I'd never want anyone to think I ever thought of them that way. I think I was writing for two years before an idea came to me and I wrote it as a step dad story, a few months later I wrote a real dad story and have done a few since.

We slowly sink further into depravity

 

[RejectReality]

Mind control has also been a traditionally separate category. It may be as much about following the norms as it is about anything else.

 

[KeithD]

Mind Control is, in principle, a form of nonconsent. It's a subset of nonconsent.

As I noted above, I don't think this is absolutely so. I treat mind control as a release of reluctance (ergo consent that needs help but isn't really lacking in the eventuality of what happens), not ipso facto a form of nonconsent. I think this is as legitimate treatment as a form of nonconsent. And, as treated through my lens, the stories pass submissions muster at Literotica.

 

[SimonDoom]

As I noted above, I don't think this is absolutely so. I treat mind control as a release of reluctance (ergo consent that needs help but isn't really lacking in the eventuality of what happens), not ipso facto a form of nonconsent. I think this is as legitimate treatment as a form of nonconsent. And, as treated through my lens, the stories pass submissions muster at Literotica.

I don't quibble with that at all. Like I said, what matters is how readers perceive it, and I suspect many readers see it the way you do. But let's face it: if you WERE able somehow, magically, to control someone's mind, and if you made them do something for your sexual pleasure, and you were caught, it would be criminal. Legally, you are subjecting a person to nonconsensual sexual activity. But that has nothing to do, in my view, with how Literotica categories the stories. I think the Mind Control categorization makes sense.

 

[AlinaX]

I don't see a lot of mind control in Taboo. I'm sure with that many stories in the category there will be some, but I don't see it as frequent. I did one which involved hypnosis, but the twist at the end was the mother wasn't 'under' and was just letting the son think he was controlling her cause...well I tend to not like to dabble in anything that for me is complete non consent.

There's a lot of incest in Mind Control, and a fair amount of mind control in Incest.

I find faked hypnosis plots quite irritating, but then I quite enjoy aspects of non-con.

 

[lovecraft68]

There's a lot of incest in Mind Control, and a fair amount of mind control in Incest.

I find faked hypnosis plots quite irritating, but then I quite enjoy aspects of non-con.

I'd imagine the incest in MC takes some heat, not sure the other way around. Pure non con will get trashed in I/T however.
That story is 10 years old at this point, done as a paid request. I don't mind it, except the not being under is a cliche, but it was their money.

But that 'it wasn't real the entire time' is a staple of non con here due to the (clears throat) must enjoy it rule, so nasty scenes turn out to be "oh, he was the boyfriend" "Oh, those guys were paid, it was her gang bang fantasy" "it was a movie being filmed" all kind of hokey but necessary.

 

[cunninghamtales]

But let's face it: if you WERE able somehow, magically, to control someone's mind, and if you made them do something for your sexual pleasure, and you were caught, it would be criminal. Legally, you are subjecting a person to nonconsensual sexual activity.

This is part of what I meant in the original question when I mentioned consequences - beyond just general social consequences for having someone be upset that a character mind controlled them, could you bring legal consequences into a story? Or would doing so definitely push beyond the bounds of what will be approved, as presumably someone who brings criminal charges against the mind controlling protagonist would be - regardless of how enthusiastically they were shown to enjoy it in the moment - demonstrating that they now feel it was purely a violation? It just seems mind control opens up interesting opportunities for a character to have to use their ability outside of sexual situations too, like trying to control the right people to avoid being charged with a crime.

 

[XerXesXu]

if you WERE able somehow, magically, to control someone's mind, and if you made them do something for your sexual pleasure, and you were caught, it would be criminal. Legally, you are subjecting a person to nonconsensual sexual activity.

Lying works. It's the most common cause of post-coital rape.

 

[Voboy]

beyond just general social consequences for having someone be upset that a character mind controlled them, could you bring legal consequences into a story?

Sure you could.

Would anyone feel like reading your story on a sex site once people started filing legal briefs? That's another question.

 

[cunninghamtales]

Would anyone feel like reading your story on a sex site once people started filing legal briefs? That's another question.

This... is a good point. I had been thinking less legal documents and courtroom action, more of the protagonist using their (sexual) mind control powers to evade attempts of a law enforcement to identify them and track them down - a sort of cat and mouse dynamic. That seemed like an interesting use of mind control, and a way to add risk and stakes to a category that by its nature usually has the protagonist easily getting anything they want. But it's possible I've been too focused on "would the rules allow it" rather than "would readers enjoy it", because I suppose any law enforcement coming into the story may destroy the kind of straightforward magical wish fulfillment that many readers expect from a mind control story.

 

[Brutal_One]

I see Mind Control as absence of will. So puppet or whatever you want to call it. Although you might want to write the “nothing the person would ever be inclined to do, story wise this should be moot.

Non consent is the idea that there is will but it is against that will so there must be some reason why that will cannot be expressed (story wise explained in the writing).

Brutal One

 

[AlinaX]

Now there's a fun story. A man is on trial, accused of somehow mentally coercing people into sexual acts, and the judge, prosecutor and various witnesses keep touching themselves, flashing the jury, and eventually even having orgasms...

 

[txblush]

I treat mind control as a release of reluctance (ergo consent that needs help but isn't really lacking in the eventuality of what happens), not ipso facto a form of nonconsent. I think this is as legitimate treatment as a form of nonconsent. And, as treated through my lens, the stories pass submissions muster at Literotica.

I agree with this

 

[txblush]

For instance, I'm working (slowly and fitfully, and over years, as I so often do) on a story about a psychologist who practices in a conservative suburban community in the field of sexual dysfunction, and he comes into possession of an object (I won't say what it is) that magically enables him to hypnotize people to do sexual things. At first he resists using it, knowing that's unethical. Then he uses it out of temptation, thinking he can do good and help certain patients. Then it gets out of control and the shit hits the fan. I intend the story to have a light-hearted tone and to poke fun at people's sexual inhibitions while also trying to entertain the reader. In the end, nobody will be hurt. So, it's not at all realistic.

I'd be interested in reading your story. I like stories about hypnosis and also know that the person has to be willing to be hypnotized to do what's suggested. So there's not really an issue about consent. It's about freeing a person of whatever ails them.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I have a story filed away, half-done and not likely to move past that. Vengeful mind control, po’ white trash come back for revenge. Objectively speaking, it’s well-written, but it’s very dark, too dark for comfort. Lovecraft knew what happens when you unchain demons.

Putting that aside, I’d be interested in discussing MC as nothing more than releasing inhibitions, which some here (if I’ve read their posts correctly) assert. How would that differ from getting somebody drunk and claiming that they always wanted to [insert sexual act here]?