Our Bad Book Club is taking on Coleen Hoover -- How is she so successful

And yet in many peoples minds it's great...
I don't see what the issue is????
You didn't like it... No worries, move onto the next one.

Cagivagurl
The NTSB analyses plane chrashes to find out why they happened. A writer can learn a lot from a badly written book. You learn what not to do. You study sentence structure. You prob e the vocabulary. Should I NOT be a critical reader? Every writer began as a critical reader.
 
I'm so refreshed to see that people actually share this view I have that quality does not equal quantity of money, nor even of readers. There's millions of geniuses in the grave who will never be widely read or acclaimed or wealthy. And the most popular shit in every genre and medium is bullshit, and everyone secretly knows that but nobody cares. I kind of like Metallica tho.
 
Financing for non-franchise projects is about the purest method of measuring who a studio thinks is talented and capable of delivering hits.

Yes, the studio's method ... method for delivering hits.

First, ask any director or actor (the actual artists) the biggest stumbleblock to their art is the studio. Second, hits. You say it yourself, hits. Popularity. Nothing to do with quality. So your measurement of 'success' (which was the question) is that success equals popularity. If that is your measurement, then your measurement (yours, not mine) has nothing to do with quality.
 
The NTSB analyses plane chrashes to find out why they happened. A writer can learn a lot from a badly written book. You learn what not to do. You study sentence structure. You prob e the vocabulary. Should I NOT be a critical reader? Every writer began as a critical reader.
No...
I don't agree...
Not every writer starts as a critic....
I think writers start with...
"Knowing what they like."
IMO...

Cagivagurl
 
No...
I don't agree...
Not every writer starts as a critic....
I think writers start with...
"Knowing what they like."
IMO...

Cagivagurl
You don't know what you like unless you have read a lot. To find what you like you endure fiction you don't like. To be a writer you MUST have some critical instinct. At some level EVERY author is a critic. I love mysteries! (you've read a lot of mysteries) I don't like westerns (You have read at least one) NO ONE'S taste develops in a vacuum. Don't try to tell me that is not the case. That will set off bullshit detectors on Mars!
 
Yes, the studio's method ... method for delivering hits.

First, ask any director or actor (the actual artists) the biggest stumbleblock to their art is the studio. Second, hits. You say it yourself, hits. Popularity. Nothing to do with quality. So your measurement of 'success' (which was the question) is that success equals popularity. If that is your measurement, then your measurement (yours, not mine) has nothing to do with quality.
Sorry, no. That's cynical and reductive. Outside a few narrow franchise exceptions (family entertainment and some action franchises), hits are mostly determined by quality. It's not as simple as just looking at the box office gross list and saying 'yep, popular = bad.'
 
You don't know what you like unless you have read a lot. To find what you like you endure fiction you don't like. To be a writer you MUST have some critical instinct. At some level EVERY author is a critic. I love mysteries! (you've read a lot of mysteries) I don't like westerns (You have read at least one) NO ONE'S taste develops in a vacuum. Don't try to tell me that is not the case. That will set off bullshit detectors on Mars!
Avid... Voracious, is how I would describe my reading habits...
I love to read...
You are right in that I don't like everything I read.
Why??? It didn't impress me...
The written word is like every other medium...
Simply because I don't like it, doesn't make it bad or terrible. It just didn't tick the boxes I like ticked...
What to do??? Close it, give it away to somebody else who may enjoy it...
Might even complain to some friends...
Move onto something else...

I don't consider myself an expert on writing, so I keep my thoughts to myself...

Cagivagurl...
 
Avid... Voracious, is how I would describe my reading habits...
I love to read...
You are right in that I don't like everything I read.
Why??? It didn't impress me...
The written word is like every other medium...
Simply because I don't like it, doesn't make it bad or terrible. It just didn't tick the boxes I like ticked...
What to do??? Close it, give it away to somebody else who may enjoy it...
Might even complain to some friends...
Move onto something else...

I don't consider myself an expert on writing, so I keep my thoughts to myself...

Cagivagurl...
I assume you post stories here. Do you accept feedback? Do you find some of the criticism accurate and helpful? Do you give opinion of other writer's stories? I doubt you keep your thoughts to yourself. If you are a writer who objects to all criticism on principle than I submit that you actually not much of a writer.
 
I assume you post stories here. Do you accept feedback? Do you find some of the criticism accurate and helpful? Do you give opinion of other writer's stories? I doubt you keep your thoughts to yourself. If you are a writer who objects to all criticism on principle than I submit that you actually not much of a writer.
I have posted a couple of stories.
Yes always allow comments and voting.
I've got the odd one or two comments.
Some good some bad...
I've never described myself as a writer. or an expert.
I do leave comments on a few of my favourite writers stories. The ones I like...
If I don't like it, I don't comment...
I have offered my thoughts to a few writers who have asked me give them some feedback.
I try to keep it positive and helpful.
I don't comment publicly, unless it's positive.
My thoughts are my own...
Unless it's in a forum like this. Even then I don't comment on writers stories...

Cagivagurl
 
I have posted a couple of stories.
Yes always allow comments and voting.
I've got the odd one or two comments.
Some good some bad...
I've never described myself as a writer. or an expert.
I do leave comments on a few of my favourite writers stories. The ones I like...
If I don't like it, I don't comment...
I have offered my thoughts to a few writers who have asked me give them some feedback.
I try to keep it positive and helpful.
I don't comment publicly, unless it's positive.
My thoughts are my own...
Unless it's in a forum like this. Even then I don't comment on writers stories...

Cagivagurl
So you are like the woman who "hated criticism" to the point where she self-published her novel so that she would not have to endure feedback from beta readers or editors. In other words a COWARD unwilling to make a stand, incapable of being honest with yourself. You criticize me for having critical opinions therefore paradoxically being quite critical --cthe very thing you clam you don't do. Hypocrite much?
 
So you are like the woman who "hated criticism" to the point where she self-published her novel so that she would not have to endure feedback from beta readers or editors. In other words a COWARD unwilling to make a stand, incapable of being honest with yourself. You criticize me for having critical opinions therefore paradoxically being quite critical --cthe very thing you clam you don't do. Hypocrite much?
LOL...
You certainly like to put words in peoples mouths...
I'm interested to understand where you got the impression I hate criticism???
I leave my stories open for comments, for voting, and my email address is there for all to see.
I don't criticise others because I do not consider myself to be an expert in any aspect of writing. With that thought in mind. I keep my thoughts to myself...
If that is cowardly... Then yes, that's me...
I consider myself polite.
My ego isn't as big as yours.
You may think you're good enough to throw stones at others.
I don't see myself that way...
I have voiced my opinion vociferously here in the forums about how certain things are viewed. It is an open forum, so I think that's OK...
Being a musician, and songwriter. A creator in several mediums.
I accept criticism, well intentioned or otherwise.

Let's be accurate. I did not criticise you. I suggested perhaps you could include a reference saying it was only your opinion, not a fact...
You are entitled to your opinion and I would defend your ability to voice it... Just remember. Your opinion is only that...
Others may agree, who knows. Not me because I've never read it...

You can attack me but what does that achieve?
Perhaps it gave you a moment of satisfaction... If so well done...

Cagivagurl
 
hits are mostly determined by quality.

So Katie Perry is good quality then. Bradley Cooper's uber predictable schlock A Star is Born is good quality then. All the Twilight books are good quality then.

I'm sorry (not sorry) but I just can't take your stance the least bit seriously now.
 
t's not as simple as just looking at the box office gross list and saying 'yep, popular = bad.'

And that's not what I said at all and have never ever said that and you're hardly the first to jump to that nonsense conclusion.
 
LOL...
You certainly like to put words in peoples mouths...
I'm interested to understand where you got the impression I hate criticism???
I leave my stories open for comments, for voting, and my email address is there for all to see.
I don't criticise others because I do not consider myself to be an expert in any aspect of writing. With that thought in mind. I keep my thoughts to myself...
If that is cowardly... Then yes, that's me...
I consider myself polite.
My ego isn't as big as yours.
You may think you're good enough to throw stones at others.
I don't see myself that way...
I have voiced my opinion vociferously here in the forums about how certain things are viewed. It is an open forum, so I think that's OK...
Being a musician, and songwriter. A creator in several mediums.
I accept criticism, well intentioned or otherwise.

Let's be accurate. I did not criticise you. I suggested perhaps you could include a reference saying it was only your opinion, not a fact...
You are entitled to your opinion and I would defend your ability to voice it... Just remember. Your opinion is only that...
Others may agree, who knows. Not me because I've never read it...

You can attack me but what does that achieve?
Perhaps it gave you a moment of satisfaction... If so well done...

Cagivagurl
Well Then allow me to criticize I've won prizes for my writing. I was the second place finisher for a magazine's vote of the best book in a particular subject for that year. One of my chapters was just reprinted in a recent book and I've been cited by a lot of famous suthors including Dave Moranis, Sports Illustrated and Charles C. Alexander. I think I'm qualified to say what is shit and what is not shit. I began posting her simply because I needed to work on my dialogue. The feedback keeps me here but I have over sixty books on Amazon, some under my own name and others under a pen name. I got where I am by being able to criticize and differentiate. I've written romances so I know from first-hand experience that Colleen Hoover sucks. It is NOT my opinion by every metric she sucks. She's also a defender of the patriarchy and glosses over the criminal behavior of her male protagonists and has a rather uncomfortable pregnancy fetish. In November Ninth she made an arsonist/incel/stalker whose crimes literally disfigured the heroine and nearly killed her as the heroine's fated love interest! THAT is sicker than the grossest incest story at this site. I can criticize her because I DO have the writing chops and the discernment. You refuse to be the adult in the room.
 
Well Then allow me to criticize I've won prizes for my writing. I was the second place finisher for a magazine's vote of the best book in a particular subject for that year. One of my chapters was just reprinted in a recent book and I've been cited by a lot of famous suthors including Dave Moranis, Sports Illustrated and Charles C. Alexander. I think I'm qualified to say what is shit and what is not shit. I began posting her simply because I needed to work on my dialogue. The feedback keeps me here but I have over sixty books on Amazon, some under my own name and others under a pen name. I got where I am by being able to criticize and differentiate. I've written romances so I know from first-hand experience that Colleen Hoover sucks. It is NOT my opinion by every metric she sucks. She's also a defender of the patriarchy and glosses over the criminal behavior of her male protagonists and has a rather uncomfortable pregnancy fetish. In November Ninth she made an arsonist/incel/stalker whose crimes literally disfigured the heroine and nearly killed her as the heroine's fated love interest! THAT is sicker than the grossest incest story at this site. I can criticize her because I DO have the writing chops and the discernment. You refuse to be the adult in the room.
Regardless of your possible qualifications....
All you offer is...
Your opinion....
An opinion is an unverified fact... A thought... An idea...
Thank you for offering yours...

Cagivagurl
 
So regardless of qualifications a mathematician’s statement of a math problem solution is just an opinion. Despite the qualifications a grammarian’s statement on a point of grammar is just an opinion. Regardless of qualifications a judges statement on a point of law is just an opinion. Regardless of qualifications an astronauts statement as to the nature of zero gravity is just an opinion. See how stupid and presumptuous you sound? If my qualifications mean nothing and I cannot render judgement on something I am clearly familiar with then no one can offer an opinion on anything. The value of pi. Just an opinion! The force of gravity.? Up to debate. An astronauts statement that earth is a globe? Nothing more than an opinion. You claim I don’t”t have the expertise to render an opinion on Coleen Hoover”s writing. When I point out my qualifications they make no difference. How can you even diagram a sentence? I do indeed have the qualifications and knowledge to state that Coleen Hoover sucks. I’ clearly more qualified than you! If qualifications don’t matter than no opinion by anyone on any topic carries any weight.
 
So regardless of qualifications a mathematician’s statement of a math problem solution is just an opinion ...
A mathematician can literally prove the truth of an assertion.

A literary critic (what you're being when you criticize fiction) can't.

The definition of "quality" in literature is variable and at least partly subjective. That appears to be the core of the bickering and infighting here.

If you wrote (just for instance), "Hoover repeatedly changes verb tenses in mid-paragraph," that is something testable in the same way as the assertion, "A force proportional to the sum of the masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them attracts any two objects."

If you assert, "Hoover's work is bad," you can't test it unless you define what you mean by "bad". Usually it means, "I don't like it."

-Rocco
 
So regardless of qualifications a mathematician’s statement of a math problem solution is just an opinion. Despite the qualifications a grammarian’s statement on a point of grammar is just an opinion. Regardless of qualifications a judges statement on a point of law is just an opinion. Regardless of qualifications an astronauts statement as to the nature of zero gravity is just an opinion. See how stupid and presumptuous you sound? If my qualifications mean nothing and I cannot render judgement on something I am clearly familiar with then no one can offer an opinion on anything. The value of pi. Just an opinion! The force of gravity.? Up to debate. An astronauts statement that earth is a globe? Nothing more than an opinion. You claim I don’t”t have the expertise to render an opinion on Coleen Hoover”s writing. When I point out my qualifications they make no difference. How can you even diagram a sentence? I do indeed have the qualifications and knowledge to state that Coleen Hoover sucks. I’ clearly more qualified than you! If qualifications don’t matter than no opinion by anyone on any topic carries any weight.
You can say whatever you want...
I'm not trying to stop you.... It's your right to offer your opinion...
Whether you;re right or wrong is of no consequence in this instance.
You made a statement. "Collen Hoover sucks." Personally, I don't know, and don't really care.
All I pointed out was...
All you offered was an opinion..
She may have broken the rules of grammar...
There are many celebrated works that have done similar things....
You don't like her writing.... Fair enough...
It's a free world, and you can offer that opinion... But. The important ppart is all you are saying is. "I don't like it."

Who cares?

Not me.

So criticize until your hearts content. All you prove is... Oh that's right. You have an opinion. A highly inflated one, but just an opinion.
Worth no more than mine...

Cagivagurl
 
You can say whatever you want...
I'm not trying to stop you.... It's your right to offer your opinion...
Whether you;re right or wrong is of no consequence in this instance.
You made a statement. "Collen Hoover sucks." Personally, I don't know, and don't really care.
All I pointed out was...
All you offered was an opinion..
She may have broken the rules of grammar...
There are many celebrated works that have done similar things....
You don't like her writing.... Fair enough...
It's a free world, and you can offer that opinion... But. The important ppart is all you are saying is. "I don't like it."

Who cares?

Not me.

So criticize until your hearts content. All you prove is... Oh that's right. You have an opinion. A highly inflated one, but just an opinion.
Worth no more than mine...

Cagivagurl
Whether you;re right or wrong is of no consequence in this instance.
So the opinions of judges have "no consequence" the weather prediction for tornadoes among meteorologists have "no consequences" for the civilians or emergency staff? You appeal to authority claiming that I don't have the bonefides to state an opinion on Coleen Hoover. When I demonstrate that I do indeed. Your appeal to authority is forgotten and suddenly authority is is of no consequence. Changing the rules on the fly. How generous! Your entire argument is that there is NO WAY I can offer a meaningful opinion on this issue which is disengenuous in the extreme. Movie and book critics can give valid opinions on films and books because they have a thorough knowledge of film and literature. My background and publishing experience as well as editing other authors who are far more successful than myself DOES IN FACT give weight to my opinion. Your argument is essentially "I don't like that you have a strong opinion." You are not going to bother to read Ugly Love for yourself or even check reviews or preview the text on Amazon to test the waters yourself, No, you will simply claim that all I have is an opinion. God forbid you test a hypotheses! We'd still be living on a flat Earth! Without you own investigation into how good or bad Hoover's prose is all you have is your opinion. An untested, willfully ignorant opinion that you somehow claim is equal to my experienced one. You are defending the position of ignorance. "I'm not going to sample the food that sickened you but I do know you don't have the right to criticize or fire the chef."
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING!
 
How do you measure that success?
Yeah, metrics are always tricky. In the case of movies, I'd say that commercial success matters the most. Viewership translates into money anyway. The recognition in the way of Academy Awards can be considered a success as well. Movie quality, now that's more the field of competent movie critics.
 
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