Orson Scott Card Case Study - Art and Ethics

[Recidiva]

Orson Scott Card sold the rights to his Sci Fi novel Ender's Game, which will be coming out in movie form. The author is Mormon and as part of his belief system he is anti gay to the Ender's degree.

A boycott of his movie has been suggested on this basis. Are you a fan? Would you see it? Would you boycott it? Is a boycott really damned easy as you do not give a damn?

It's tough for me because although I'm not the biggest fan of Ender's Game...I think his novel "Lost Boys" was one of the best books I've ever read and I re-read or re-listen to the audio version every year. I can't boycott Orson. Though I'm not interested in the movie. And I also realize that he sold the rights and might not be making any more money off it, he wasn't involved much in the film production.

I am aware that being an artist doesn't give you moral authority and declare that you must be a role model. But it'd sure help.

What'cha think?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Gays lead the parade in how they collar and leash their druthers, and if you don't luv it when their druthers hump your leg, youre a hater.

 

[Recidiva]

Gays lead the parade in how they collar and leash their druthers, and if you don't luv it when their druthers hump your leg, youre a hater.

When was the last time your leg was humped?

 

[RobDownSouth]

Many celebrities use their fame (or notoriety) to push various causes.

Most of them want to make the world a better place.

Orson Scott Card does not.

He has used his fame (and his name) to push an anti-homosexual bias that is positively Ugandan in nature....

...and I'm okay with that.

This is America, people have the right to voice their own opinion.

Like most on the far right fringes of society, Card has perverted the First Amendment to construe that "Freedom of Speech" implies "Freedom from criticism".

I have a problem with that.

Card, who has a movie coming out, is challenging his detractors Miles-style to be tolerant of his intolerance (which he's presumably temporarily placed in a blind trust, since the success of his movie will no doubt make him a very wealthy man, even moreso than he already is).

I don't care for the guy's politics, but I did enjoy Ender's Game. His latter books, not so much. But then, I didn't pay for them (God Bless Bit-torrent) so I really don't have a dog in this fight.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

When was the last time your leg was humped?

I'm in the grips of senile dementia but I recollect it was reading the Oprah thread, where she apologized for humping Switzerlands leg
.

 

[Recidiva]

Many celebrities use their fame (or notoriety) to push various causes.

Most of them want to make the world a better place.

Orson Scott Card does not.

He has used his fame (and his name) to push an anti-homosexual bias that is positively Ugandan in nature....

...and I'm okay with that.

This is America, people have the right to voice their own opinion.

Like most on the far right fringes of society, Card has perverted the First Amendment to construe that "Freedom of Speech" implies "Freedom from criticism".

I have a problem with that.

Card, who has a movie coming out, is challenging his detractors Miles-style to be tolerant of his intolerance (which he's presumably temporarily placed in a blind trust, since the success of his movie will no doubt make him a very wealthy man, even moreso than he already is).

I don't care for the guy's politics, but I did enjoy Ender's Game. His latter books, not so much. But then, I didn't pay for them (God Bless Bit-torrent) so I really don't have a dog in this fight.

That's what kills me, to respect his choices. With no cognitive dissonance whatsoever. Tolerate his intolerance.

I'd say no to that, but I also know he's written one of my top ten ever.

I don't like much of his stuff, including Ender's Game, because it has so much abuse in it. After reading a bit of his life history and knowing he has a deeply abused past, I can't read it without getting a severe squick factor and wishing he'd tell a therapist instead.

 

[Recidiva]

I'm in the grips of senile dementia but I recollect it was reading the Oprah thread, where she apologized for humping Switzerlands leg
.

Well, if it's the only grip ya got, make the most of it, I suppose.

 

[RobDownSouth]

That's what kills me, to respect his choices. With no cognitive dissonance whatsoever. Tolerate his intolerance.

I'd say no to that, but I also know he's written one of my top ten ever.

I don't like much of his stuff, including Ender's Game, because it has so much abuse in it. After reading a bit of his life history and knowing he has a deeply abused past, I can't read it without getting a severe squick factor and wishing he'd tell a therapist instead.

*laughing* and waaaay off topic, but every time I see the word "squick" I think of the early days of the Internets, and alt.scientology.squick.squick.squick had the most scorched-earth Internet trolls I'd ever seen.

 

[Recidiva]

*laughing* and waaaay off topic, but every time I see the word "squick" I think of the early days of the Internets, and alt.scientology.squick.squick.squick had the most scorched-earth Internet trolls I'd ever seen.

Well, not that far off topic if we're talking typically American religions with weird habits and occasionally compelling results with passionate adherents and detractors.

I do know what the fuss is about, I spent a few years in the Church of Scientology and I'm still in decent standing, though I wish they'd stop sending me an inch-high stack of promo every day. And not just that, but it's under all my previous names, married three times, that gives me four names to send to, wanted or no.

I know where they are, I can find them if I want to. Really.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I like Ender's Game quite a bit, never bothered doing research on Orson though. The idea that he's anti-gay kinda shocks me, I thought it was all but flat out stated that that Bean or whatever the younger kid who was friends with Ender and Ender had as close a relationship as two young males can have. Funny.

 

[lovetoread]

If you use your "celebrity" to push your ideas, then I won't pay for anything I dont agree with.

It's only entertainment, I'm not using my money to make rich someone I wouldn't speak to in real life.

 

[monique1971]

*laughing* and waaaay off topic, but every time I see the word "squick" I think of the early days of the Internets, and alt.scientology.squick.squick.squick had the most scorched-earth Internet trolls I'd ever seen.

Man those were the days. Usenet.

I like a lot of books written by people whose views I find odious-- Henry James, terrible anti-Semite--but it's somehow different when the people are still alive and participating in media debates that might affect public policy, albeit indirectly.

 

[Recidiva]

I like Ender's Game quite a bit, never bothered doing research on Orson though. The idea that he's anti-gay kinda shocks me, I thought it was all but flat out stated that that Bean or whatever the younger kid who was friends with Ender and Ender had as close a relationship as two young males can have. Funny.

My daughter was a huge fan and I found most of the research out through her years after I'd settled on my favorite book of his.

Here's an article I read years ago: "My favorite author, my worst interview"

http://www.salon.com/2000/02/03/card/

So I was aware of this whole thing a while back and I'm not surprised by the boycott at all, but it's a huge mess of tangential issues.

 

[RobDownSouth]

I like Ender's Game quite a bit, never bothered doing research on Orson though. The idea that he's anti-gay kinda shocks me, I thought it was all but flat out stated that that Bean or whatever the younger kid who was friends with Ender and Ender had as close a relationship as two young males can have. Funny.

Calling him "anti-gay" is a bit lukewarm.

I first became aware of his politics when the California gay marriage Prop 8 thing was playing out, and sorta shrugged when Card became part of the Mormon Church's hate offensive. I thought oh well, he's a Mormon against gays getting married, *yawn* no surprise there.

I later found out Card has a deep-seated absolute loathing of any and all things homosexual. He might be one of the few humans alive more homophobic than AJ and/or the Vettebigot. He has opined on numerous occasions that ANY homosexual conduct should be criminalized.

 

[Recidiva]

If you use your "celebrity" to push your ideas, then I won't pay for anything I dont agree with.

It's only entertainment, I'm not using my money to make rich someone I wouldn't speak to in real life.

Yes, he's certainly used his celebrity to push this issue. Good to see the issue pushing back. I think he deserves whatever boycott he gets.

Not sure he'd see anything from this, he had creative control for years and years and the movie never happened until he gave that up.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

That's what kills me, to respect his choices. With no cognitive dissonance whatsoever. Tolerate his intolerance.

I'd say no to that, but I also know he's written one of my top ten ever.

I don't like much of his stuff, including Ender's Game, because it has so much abuse in it. After reading a bit of his life history and knowing he has a deeply abused past, I can't read it without getting a severe squick factor and wishing he'd tell a therapist instead.

I've met 100s of folks like you who draw their lines in the sand and discover that the people they cherish are on the other side of the line and feet make great erasers.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Yes, he's certainly used his celebrity to push this issue. Good to see the issue pushing back. I think he deserves whatever boycott he gets.

Not sure he'd see anything from this, he had creative control for years and years and the movie never happened until he gave that up.

Pride goeth before a fall. Stalins victims wrote love poems to him and repudiated everyone and kissed his rings before he shot them. You and LTR would, too.

 

[Recidiva]

I've met 100s of folks like you who draw their lines in the sand and discover that the people they cherish are on the other side of the line and feet make great erasers.

As alignments go I'm generally chaotic neutral. This is an interesting issue to me because I really, really love one piece of work this man has contributed to the world, which oddly enough nobody else has even heard of or read.

Lost Boys is an incredible piece of work in my opinion that has a great deal to do with what it's like to balance religion with family with culture with practicality.

I'd rather erase a line than leave it there and be a hypocrite. Shades of gray are interesting. I am not a superfan, but I am a specific fan and I won't take away from him what he's done, but I also won't be having dinner with the dude anytime soon.

My relationship is as a patron, not a friend.

 

[Recidiva]

Pride goeth before a fall. Stalins victims wrote love poems to him and repudiated everyone and kissed his rings before he shot them. You and LTR would, too.

Your crystal ball's a tad cracked, but if it makes you happy that I experience conflict, then that's fine with me.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

Everybody's fave is problematic to their convictions to some degree.

My girl Serena Williams was a rape apologist for the Steubenville rape victim's case. My boy Kal Penn just came out in favor of the stop-and-frisk practices that was ruled unconstitutional in NYC (although it's still on the fence on if he's doing this satirically for exposure.)

As a Jehovah's Witness, Prince holds some beliefs I'm not kosher with. And he's gotten somewhat conservative-minded in his latter years as opposed to the guy who once wore ass-less pants on stage and wrote unabashedly liberal, dirty-word laden funk classics. I still love dude but I really liked him way back when, nah'mean?

We have to decide what in their beliefs or actions constitutes a deal-breaker with ourselves, either wholly or partially. If we do or never do, life is still going to go on for all concerned. But it would be nice if they weren't problematic that way.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

As alignments go I'm generally chaotic neutral. This is an interesting issue to me because I really, really love one piece of work this man has contributed to the world, which oddly enough nobody else has even heard of or read.

Lost Boys is an incredible piece of work in my opinion that has a great deal to do with what it's like to balance religion with family with culture with practicality.

I'd rather erase a line than leave it there and be a hypocrite. Shades of gray are interesting. I am not a superfan, but I am a specific fan and I won't take away from him what he's done, but I also won't be having dinner with the dude anytime soon.

My relationship is as a patron, not a friend.

There may be hope for you. I went thru the Sinbad and the Sea Monsters/Welcome to the Jungle school of psychotherapy. Beard the lion in his den and bleed soul enrichment. Group hugs were unknown back then. In 1967 they first wanted to know if you were homosexual, now they wanna know if you've ever watched FOX. FOX is the new closet.

I'll try LOST BOYS. I don't care for Card, tho.

 

[Recidiva]

Everybody's fave is problematic to their convictions to some degree.

My girl Serena Williams was a rape apologist for the Steubenville rape victim's case. My boy Kal Penn just came out in favor of the stop-and-frisk practices that was ruled unconstitutional in NYC (although it's still on the fence on if he's doing this satirically for exposure.)

As a Jehovah's Witness, Prince holds some beliefs I'm not kosher with. And he's gotten somewhat conservative-minded in his latter years as opposed to the guy who once wore ass-less pants on stage and wrote unabashedly liberal, dirty-word laden funk classics. I still love dude but I really liked him way back when, nah'mean?

We have to decide what in their beliefs or actions constitutes a deal-breaker with ourselves, either wholly or partially. If we do or never do, life is still going to go on for all concerned. But it would be nice if they weren't problematic that way.

Oh...Kal...*facepalm*

I really want Cory Booker for president. Rather badly. If I find out he has a fetish for blinding baby rabbits, I'm still not sure I would not vote for him.

 

[Recidiva]

There may be hope for you. I went thru the Sinbad and the Sea Monsters/Welcome to the Jungle school of psychotherapy. Beard the lion in his den and bleed soul enrichment. Group hugs were unknown back then. In 1967 they first wanted to know if you were homosexual, now they wanna know if you've ever watched FOX. FOX is the new closet.

I'll try LOST BOYS. I don't care for Card, tho.

It's not science fiction. It's pretty much biographical. It's about a Mormon man raising a family and managing a career as a computer programmer at the advent of PC's coming into being.

I read the book years ago and it kicked my ass up and down the square. I now have the audio version and he has a spoken epilogue that breaks my heart even further. Every year I re-listen and give myself three hours to cry. Stick with it, I can't give you any spoilers, which is probably why nobody else has read it. It looks like a typical novel and lulls you along until it kicks in the gut, and his stated inspiration is...well...inspiring and real.

The man is entirely exposed as a human being and as a father and as a spiritually conflicted being and I think it is the best etching of ethical struggle attempting to manage ego and intelligence and faith.

It is downright beautiful and you can be forgiven for giving a damn if you read it.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

Oh...Kal...*facepalm*

I really want Cory Booker for president. Rather badly. If I find out he has a fetish for blinding baby rabbits, I'm still not sure I would not vote for him.

You should've seen the wail on Twitter by his fans. They're pleading with John Cho not to completely break their hearts.

If Cory comes in after Hillary, you'll likely find out tons of bad deal-breaker stuff, like using pasteurized process cheese food slices on his burgers or something.

 

[Recidiva]

You should've seen the wail on Twitter by his fans. They're pleading with John Cho not to completely break their hearts.

If Cory comes in after Hillary, you'll likely find out tons of bad deal-breaker stuff, like using pasteurized process cheese food slices on his burgers or something.

I have to say I can never forgive Hillary for deciding that she could legislate banning games because they make children violent.

Just say no, bitch.