Opinions Wanted for Story Plot Scene(WIP) in Sword and Sorcery Story.

[Jmanchu]

So I'm working on several stories(when I'm not too busy with work, side hustles, schooling, etc), and one story, a sword and sorcery fantasy, I have a scene that I'd like opinions on, preferably from people who enjoy some battle strategies and courtroom war politics in their fantasy, though anyone is still welcome to respond, if you want:

So quick info dump before getting into questions. This story a fantasy that's sword and sorcery: think warriors of prophecy battling evil demons and an evil empire while surviving in a world that's grey at best, and downright dark, almost grimdark at worst and you get the idea(I have posted asking other questions on this story a few times here). there are two main characters, male hero and a female princess. The female main is a princess of an evil, highly militaristic empire of dark elves trying to more or less conquer everything.

So she serves her dad(evil god-emperor) as a spy in an order(Black Widow Sisterhood) of femme fatale sorceresses that answer to him and his high queen.

So there is a scene(WIP) where she and her entire order is summoned to have an audience with her god-emperor dad since he has tasks for them. They get into the throne room and walk into discussion of future invasion plans between the most powerful and influential members of the royal court and empire(but only the top military commander types and a court sage). There's a bit of back and forth between the princes, the other nobles, etc while the princess and her cohorts of female witch spies observe when they wait for the god-emperor to call them and give them orders.

Now the scene starts where the court discusses the military plans, then subterfuge and sabotage plans to start an effective invasion on their next target. They discuss a potential problem, an order of warriors and sages(Griffon's Order) that actively work to protect the free world, and are a thorn on their side.

The scene would then go to the Black Widow Sisterhood all getting the tasks of combatting the Griffon's Order, infiltrating the enemy nations and help sow chaos and discord with their witchy ways. The princess would then be given the special task, from daddy himself and the high queen, of dealing with the male main character who is some prophecized hero destined to fight and potentially stop the god-emperor.

Now I was originally going to have the invasion plans and then the meeting where the princess and her order meets her dad to get their tasks be separate, but I got kinda bored and mixed the scenes together.

Now, there's a third planned scene where the queens, and certain other female nobles, all more or less make a meeting to discuss punishing the princess which the high queen(Spider Queen) is overseeing, for the general attitude she has as she's kind of a sassy little thing, and certain actions she's taken with a few of them that has offended them(She's kind of alone, not in the most untouchable of positions politics-wise, especially if she gets in bad with the high queen, but explaining the entire backstory here is a wall of text). The original plan was ,first, the battle plan scenes, then the second scene of her and her fellow Black Widow Sisters getting their orders mixed with the other female nobles(who are all part of the High Queen's clique or cult or affiliated in some way with the workings of the Black Widow Sisterhood) demanding the princess answer to her transgressions and offenses somewhere in there, but now with the way it's written, it's all out of whack.

So here's where I'm asking for opinions or thoughts: 1. Could it sound better to keep the first two scenes together with the highest ranking nobles and royalty discussing the best way to proceed with their invasion along with the princess and her cohorts getting their orders to do their spywork. Then somewhere, the future scene where the princess has to deal with her getting in trouble.

2. Or separate the first two scenes and mix the second scene with the third scene?

3.Or possibly see if it's possible to mix all three? I kinda don't wanna do that one, as I fear that might conflate the key focuses of these scenes and possibly make a not good flow in the scene, but I'm considering it if I decide to rewrite it.

P.S. Btw when I'm talking about the female main character being discussed on whether or not she should face some sort of punishment, it isn't some sort of setup to erotic fantasy BDSM or anything. It's an actual negative. The story isn't meant to be outright pornographic where everything is erotic and some prelude to sexual encounters and everything is sexy situations. There is smut planned, but it's a dark sword and sorcery action fantasy first, with possible gratuitous sexual scenes and themes freely expressed in the story wherever if it happens it happens, and a possible romance between the two main characters, if that happens. Just want to be sure and clear up incase it needed to be clear.

P.P.S. I know I'm overthinking it. It's my superpower and kryptonite, as I like to say. But I still would like some opinions.

EDIT: Tried to shorten, simplify the wall of info dump. And made some parts clearer.

 

[TheRedChamber]

That's very complicated and I'm not sure I've taken everything in, but a general rule for spy work would be to have as few people in the room as possible. The king, the operatives (Inc mc) and possibly one advisor.

 

[Jmanchu]

That's what I was worried about, but I needed somebody else to say it to confirm if it was a valid concern. Shit

So, then, I should consider separating all potential scene parts.

All the nobles in that court room scene are select top military types and one top level sage discussing the most important(sensitive) parts of the invasion. the princes are both commanders of their respective army/military units. One is specifically special military type. And half their discussion is them setting up and talking about active behind the scenes sabotaging with their own discussions of their efforts to destabilize the rule of the kings. Which then opens up into what they(mainly the king) want from the female mc's group. Dunno if that helps ease that concern.

Maybe it best I let this story sit in the back burner for now and work on something else while I have time to.

 

[SimonDoom]

Here's my take, for whatever it's worth. It's boy meets girl. There's a lot more to it than that, but that's the essence. Focus on that, and the rest will fall into place. Especially focus on the princess. She's the daughter of an evil emperor, but you don't want her to be evil, right? So how does she emerge from that evil world and be a non-evil person and fall in love with the hero? What is it about him that attracts her? What is it about her that attracts him? That's the meat of your story.

 

[Jmanchu]

Here's my take, for whatever it's worth. It's boy meets girl. There's a lot more to it than that, but that's the essence. Focus on that, and the rest will fall into place. Especially focus on the princess. She's the daughter of an evil emperor, but you don't want her to be evil, right? So how does she emerge from that evil world and be a non-evil person and fall in love with the hero? What is it about him that attracts her? What is it about her that attracts him? That's the meat of your story.

Huh, Boy meets girl. didn't think of it like that. That's a good point.

I do got that part down where she's the daughter of an evil emperor but she's not evil. If it's of interest, her backstory is her mother was a local queen of a conquered elf nation. Her mother became one of the queen wives as part of the terms of surrender, and she pretty much is the moral compass of the female main character. I could get into detail but the basic is, her mom is her source of goodness. Mom dead though.

The original premise of the story was actually supposed to be a kind of straightforward but wild sword and sorcery story where a brutal Conan the Barbarian-esque "hero of legend" kills evil demons and wizards and stuff. He deals with his nemesis whos an evil sorceress and dark elf princess bitch of a dark empire. She tries to corrupt him. They hate-fuck each other instead. He later kills the evil emperor then basically victory fucks his daughter in the throne room. He takes over the empire as the next emperor and rules with an iron fist with a sexy wicked dark elf queen by his side.

But the story took a hard left and the evil dark elf princess is now not so evil, and the hero character isn't as much of an asshole and can care sometimes even when he tries not to, and he has some emotional vulnerabilities and traumas that he mostly tries to hide even from himself(he's still kind of an asshole). And the story is now very different than what it was originally supposed to be with more details on the political workings of the empire and the other nations all around and more backstory for all the characters than intended. It's now almost nothing like the original premise, but I do have an idea how the romance would go, as well as the eventual ending.

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

Having not read your story at all, I would ask if the punishment is a required scene for your story. Does it advance the plot?
The way I'm envisioning your story is that it's an 'enemy to lovers' adventure romance. Reminiscent of Samurai Jack season 5, where aku sends his daughter assassins to hunt down Jack. Watch it if you haven't
With that in mind, and assuming that the punishment scene is mandatory, I would say the punishment could lead directly to the climax. Let's say she returns home (maybe she has a point of no return dilemma - she has to decide between her enemy lover and her family, she decides family so comes home. The queen discovers her transgression/betrayal, and condemns her to death. Her lover somehow figures out that she's about to be executed, swooshes in and saves her life, proving his eternal love to her. One thing leads to another, they fuck in the throne room, he becomes the new emperor with her as his consort.

One other thing I would suggest is, orders shouldnt be 'mixed up' as a reason for punishment. She's a member of a highly competent group of bad guy assassins. Other than in a comedy, highly competent group of bad guy assassins shouldn't make mistakes. It dilutes their bad guyness.

Sorry if I misunderstood your options, but that's how I see it vis a vis 3rd scene.

 

[Jmanchu]

Having not read your story at all, I would ask if the punishment is a required scene for your story. Does it advance the plot?
The way I'm envisioning your story is that it's an 'enemy to lovers' adventure romance. Reminiscent of Samurai Jack season 5, where aku sends his daughter assassins to hunt down Jack. Watch it if you haven't
With that in mind, and assuming that the punishment scene is mandatory, I would say the punishment could lead directly to the climax. Let's say she returns home (maybe she has a point of no return dilemma - she has to decide between her enemy lover and her family, she decides family so comes home. The queen discovers her transgression/betrayal, and condemns her to death. Her lover somehow figures out that she's about to be executed, swooshes in and saves her life, proving his eternal love to her. One thing leads to another, they fuck in the throne room, he becomes the new emperor with her as his consort.

One other thing I would suggest is, orders shouldnt be 'mixed up' as a reason for punishment. She's a member of a highly competent group of bad guy assassins. Other than in a comedy, highly competent group of bad guy assassins shouldn't make mistakes. It dilutes their bad guyness.

Sorry if I misunderstood your options, but that's how I see it vis a vis 3rd scene.

I should probably post somewhere my WIP, so people could see what I've got going but it's always prone to reworking. I'm working on adding a different prelude and am reworking a chunk of the story for the male main. It never feels good enough

The threat of punishment is more of a thing where she did a few things to piss off some of the wrong people, including but not limited in the slightest to things like back talking one of the queens(one of the "Shadow Queens") who is her superior in her order. Said shadow queen put down her former shadow queen mother who was executed as a traitor when the female main was a kid after recognizing the jewelry she wore as her mother's. part of the back story of the female main character was later ceremoniously adopted to be the official daughter of the "High Queen" or the Spider Queen, who's an evil spider goddess from the underworld and above the Shadow Queens(The High Queen or Spider Queen is the alpha bitch of the other queens). She doesn't see the Spider Queen as her mom and really hates and fears her, and basically when the other queen(who reveres the high queen and hated her mother as a rival and bitter enemy) told her to choose if she's the daughter of the high queen or a traitor, the princess basically told her to fuck off.

One thing led to another, and it ended up in a magic duel between said Shadow Queen and the female main that she barely survived thanks to her mother's ghost showing up, then later on evil god-emperor ordering the shadow queen to stop fighting. In that situation the queen demands she be held accountable for her actions. She's actually later supposed to be barely saved punishment from interference of her half-brother crashing the party(though he's doing it to keep a chess pawn piece in play. And he uses that to help hold that over her so she can stay his pawn in his political games of power. He's not a good guy, he's a pretty bad guy for far more twisted reasons than that.). This triggers the female higher ups and some others to see her as someone that has potentially wrong and dangerous attitude for the empire, and with other things that come to light, potentially like her mother. This puts her in a more isolated and vulnerable position in the political side of things within the empire, which is meant to come into play later in the story as foreshadowing and a potential device for the plot in the future which I have several ideas to work with.

Also, also, the original premise is gone completely, Very, very gone completely. The only thing that is similar between the old premise and the new one now is there is a hero male character, and a female dark elf princess. That's it. Its now a complicated story of a hero main character who is a prophecized warrior whose family and home was taken from him from when he was a kid while trying to make sense of his responsibility to a world that doesn't really care or trust him, and dealing with betrayals and all that, and a princess that is stuck serving an empire she hates for taking away the one thing that was important to her, her mother, while secretly wishing for a life away from it all, from the cutthroat politics of her life, etc. The ending where there they have sex in the throne room is out the window. Maybe.

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

Sounds to me like you're way better off getting the advice of a beta reader or 2.

 

[Jmanchu]

Sounds to me like you're way better off getting the advice of a beta reader or 2.

Yeah maybe. Also, I've seen Samurai Jack. Shit is the bomb

 

[Bubo_bubo]

Just a quick reaction:
- The first two scenes should be separated. I'd even drop the first scene (the military planning) or have it just mentioned in a few broad lines. That way you lock yourself less in for what you need to put in the rest of the story.
- The Black Widow Sisterhood should stroll in only after the plans have been discussed. They are agents that are going to be sent into enemy territory. They face the possibility of capture. They should only get the information that they need for their mission and nothing else. This is especially true in a setting were magic exists and mind-reading and/or lie-detecting magic are distinct possibilities.
- Punishment: this is hard to pull off if the princess has to go on a mission to neutralise a high profile target. What kind of punishment would you have in mind that the Emperor would allow keeping in mind that he wants the princess to succeed in her mission and so should be at her best, physically and mentally? Or is the idea that punishment is suggested but avoided?

 

[Jmanchu]

Then definitely separate the scenes. Gotcha.

Punishment is suggested and considered. "Re-education" and "re-training" at best(which is not fun times, basically psychological abuse), and possibly be considered unreliable and a traitor thus risk facing the fate her mom did instead at worst. Also she pretty much risks further reputation hits and risks being socially isolated and exposed with a target sign on her back in a world of Machiavellianism and the future problems that brings. That's the gist of it.

 

[Bubo_bubo]

Then definitely separate the scenes. Gotcha.

Punishment is suggested and considered. "Re-education" and "re-training" at best(which is not fun times, basically psychological abuse), and possibly be considered unreliable and a traitor thus risk facing the fate her mom did instead at worst. Also she pretty much risks further reputation hits and risks being socially isolated and exposed with a target sign on her back in a world of Machiavellianism and the future problems that brings. That's the gist of it.

Hmmm.
You could make the mission part of the punishment or related to it. It might be understood that neutralising the Hero is a task with a very high chance of failure, possibly death. Maybe the assassin-princess is given a choice: either get a very severe punishment or do this extremely dangerous mission (and still get some less severe punishment).
If it is understood the mission is nigh impossible, they might care less about what condition she's in when she starts her mission. If she succeeds: bonus! If not, it served as a distraction and got rid of her.
ETA: maybe she's even fed some false information (without her being aware it's false - or maybe even the reader not being aware of that) to give to the enemy should she get captured and interrogated.

 

[Jmanchu]

Hmmm.
You could make the mission part of the punishment or related to it. It might be understood that neutralising the Hero is a task with a very high chance of failure, possibly death. Maybe the assassin-princess is given a choice: either get a very severe punishment or do this extremely dangerous mission (and still get some less severe punishment).
If it is understood the mission is nigh impossible, they might care less about what condition she's in when she starts her mission. If she succeeds: bonus! If not, it served as a distraction and got rid of her.
ETA: maybe she's even fed some false information (without her being aware it's false - or maybe even the reader not being aware of that) to give to the enemy should she get captured and interrogated.

You put out some nice ideas, bro. I do gotta say everyone else here has given great suggestions here as well, much appreciated, yall.

I do have an idea on what's expected for her mission, and the reason why her dad chose her specifically(which won't be revealed until much later. She doesn't even know). He's able to foresee the future and read its possible branches to an extent and knows the right actions to manipulate future events to his favor. I don't know how much I should reveal for my story here as details are always prone to change, and serious spoiler alert for my story but ... ... he's secretly trying to make a relationship between her and the hero. To fuck with a part of the prophecy where the hero, through the aid of his future foretold love(which is supposed to be an elven priestess, and princess of a elven kingdom who is also a descendant of a goddess), and all his allies are supposed rally together to defeat him and potentially stop the Dark Gods. She's sent to spy on the main male character, gain his trust. And if he drops his guard, kill him if she sees an opportunity. At least that's all she knows.

As Backstory: The evil god-emperor chose the female main's mother to take as one of his wives because of her background that made her "compatible" with the prophecy as she's also a descendant of said goddess and a priestess of that goddess, and the daughter born from there is his secret weapon to fuck up that prophecy, and change the future to his favor. And basically have a finger on the male main character's destiny, as the female main becomes his lover instead. He actually let the female main character's mother be enough of an influence in her early life to instill a certain sense of genuine light and kindness in her, then take the mother out of the female main character's life.

Then he put her under the twisted guidance and tutelage of the high queen who he has take her in as an "adoptive daughter." High queen is a demon underworld goddess(One of the Dark Gods) and the female main character learns the deceitful ways of the Black Widow Sisterhood and the lessons from the demon queen which is a traumatic experience for her. Having just enough of a genuine kind side and actual empathy and ability to connect on an emotional level is easier than her just faking it for the hero to fall for her. Meanwhile he has certain ways to keep her in check, including some contigency plans that ensure he gets what he wants for her to achieve his goals even if she tries to betray him like her mom did who tried to save the female main character from his plans.

Other stuff includes that he lets his people downplay a little how dangerous the hero really is for him, though a few have a minor idea why he's so dangerous and how reliable the mentioned prophecy is. Most of them just know that the hero main character and the group he's a part of has had some success in causing problems for the empire's plans and even driving back an invasion attempt or two(He helped save the only free dwarven nation left and a major light elf kingdom). For the most part, the majority think the empire's main interest in killing or capturing the hero is in the fact that he's a symbol of hope for their enemies and breaking that would help crush the will of the people they're trying to conquer.

Now why her dad is so permissive to her suffering or tribulations, if you might ask? He's an asshole, and she's only a means to an end to him. And if she's not useful, she's disposable. She's an investment he can afford to lose if she doesn't pan out. The demon goddess high queen has the same attitude to female main. But she enjoys putting the female main in bad positions. She's that way partially because she enjoys the sensual suffering and torment of all living things and corrupting them at the soul slowly. She has an interest in the female main's unusually warm, soft and caring side that the female main tries to hide and using it to harm her emotionally and corrupt her. The demon goddess high queen has a certain special interest in fucking with the female main and seeing if she can take light and goodness from her soul as some sadistic game.