Opening with Dialog

[sr71plt]

You'd see it more often if you avoided using your condescending tone while always tooting your own horn.

It's not your opinions that people take issue with; it's your way of voicing them. For a guy that seems to possess some intelligence, you are extremely ignorant when it comes to this point.

I recognize your need to have someone to attack here. Might as well be someone you want to bring down to your level.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Some suggestions, if you don't mind:

Never start a story (flash, short, novel, whatever) with a weather observation or dialog. ...

Kinda leaves out... It was a sultry night, the sky filled with stars, when I noticed her standing at the bus stop.

 

[Swilly]

I recognize your need to have someone to attack here. Might as well be someone you want to bring down to your level.

Like I said...clueless.

Narcissistic traits:

An obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges-Check for pilot
A lack of psychological awareness-Check for pilot
Difficulty with empathy-check for pilot
Hypersensitivity to any insults or imagined insults (see criticism and narcissists, narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury) GIANT check for pilot
Detesting those who do not admire them (narcissistic abuse) another giant check
Pretending to be more important than they really are Lol Lol Lol
Bragging (subtly but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements Again...lol
Claiming to be an "expert" at many things- I think I just peed myself
Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people Whaddya know? another one.
Denial of remorse and gratitude

 

[Antryg_Windrose]

To speak first or not to speak first; that is the question.

It depends. Is your story a diorama, or a play? Players tell and/or do; dioramas show and/or tell. They run at different paces and rhythms. If the goal is to grab and immerse the reader, either can work, just with different dynamics.

 

[PennLady]

Telling someone "never" to do something is instruction. I really can't get over how those trying to protect a writer's choices and creativity here get short shrift compared to the blind leading the blind advice givers. (Of course, on this particular point, I was surprised to see several of my perpetual backbiters agreeing with my point.)

Well, I am agreeing with you. I'm just saying that the OP here did say "Some suggestions." However, I agree that a statement starting with "never" has left the realm of suggestion and gone into instruction.

 

[sr71plt]

Like I said...clueless.

I'm not so clueless that I can't see that you never go after JBJ, who is far more abrasive (and often off the wall and irrelevant) than I am here. It's just me. Obviously you find me threatening to you somehow. And going after me lets you run with a pack too.

Well, you can stick it where the sun don't shine. You may be obsessed with and feel threatened by me here, but you don't really scope on my radar. So, you can continue to help drag this forum down by joining in the smear campaign against me, and I'll go back to not reading your posts.

I don't intend to pretend that I don't know what I've learned through training and experience about writing just to make you and/or your friends feel superior to me here.

 

[sr71plt]

Well, I am agreeing with you. I'm just saying that the OP here did say "Some suggestions." However, I agree that a statement starting with "never" has left the realm of suggestion and gone into instruction.

That's good to hear. Thanks.

 

[Swilly]

I mostly ignore JBJ's antics because

1. His intent is obvious

and

2. Because he can be quite funny at times.

You, however, are a wolf in sheep's clothing. The fact that people "target" you should tell you something, but it doesn't. As I wrote before, if you didn't act like an arrogant ass, I'd have no gripe with you. And no, JBJ's misdeeds do not excuse yours.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Like I said...clueless.

Narcissistic traits:

An obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges-Check for pilot
A lack of psychological awareness-Check for pilot
Difficulty with empathy-check for pilot
Hypersensitivity to any insults or imagined insults (see criticism and narcissists, narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury) GIANT check for pilot
Detesting those who do not admire them (narcissistic abuse) another giant check
Pretending to be more important than they really are Lol Lol Lol
Bragging (subtly but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements Again...lol
Claiming to be an "expert" at many things- I think I just peed myself
Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people Whaddya know? another one.
Denial of remorse and gratitude

Lets be clear about narcissism. Real narcissists are dangerous rather than annoying. They aggress insults and discounts more than scratch you from their Christmas card list.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I'm not so clueless that I can't see that you never go after JBJ, who is far more abrasive (and often off the wall and irrelevant) than I am here. It's just me. Obviously you find me threatening to you somehow. And going after me lets you run with a pack too.

Well, you can stick it where the sun don't shine. You may be obsessed with and feel threatened by me here, but you don't really scope on my radar. So, you can continue to help drag this forum down by joining in the smear campaign against me, and I'll go back to not reading your posts.

I don't intend to pretend that I don't know what I've learned through training and experience about writing just to make you and/or your friends feel superior to me here.

Bite me troll boy. ^^^^^The Mediocre Imposter.

 

[sr71plt]

Glad you got the gist of that, JBJ. You can too.

Who cares how bad you act to get attention? Certainly not Swilly and the rest of the wolf pack. So, I won't either.

 

[DesEsseintes]

First, before anyone accuses me of trying to boost my BS quotient, I have to admit I did not know who Mr. Wodehouse was. I thought I might have heard the name, but figured I'd better make sure I knew who I was talking about.

The only thing of his I've read is what you've posted and what is available via "Look Inside" at Amazon for the same title, and have concluded that I don't care for it for the following three reasons:

1. It opens with dialog that leaves me wondering when the story starts. If I'd pulled the book off a shelf in a library or book store and started reading from page one I would have put it back after paragraph two. There is nothing there that grasps me. (And for those who want to say it - I might not grasp the subtlety of the humor. In fact, I don't think I did through all the available pages at Amazon.)
2. There is no context for the first sentence. Or the second. Or third.
   
3. The story appears, after more than a page, to be about things British. Sorry, I don't even read things about St Louis, MO, USA, just ten miles from my house, unless there's something going on in the story that interests.

I agree with you; Mr. Wodehouse has been judged adequate by more educated and erudite men and woman than I happen to be. The simple fact that his books can still be purchased is a testament to his talents and skill. Yet for all that, his writing isn't for me.

I also agree with you that the excerpt addresses the issue quite succinctly and is a splendid example of how not to do it.

I wonder, should the first sentence were removed and read by itself and without knowing the author's name, if it would attract anyone's interest enough for them to read on.

You have never heard of Wodehouse. You don't like reading anything set ten miles or more from you. You think his writing is an example of how not to do it. Quite breathtaking, in one who purports to lay down writing rules to others.

Thank you. I would never have been able to summarize quite so comprehensively why I shall ignore your writing advice from now on, without your help.

 

[lovecraft68]

I mostly ignore JBJ's antics because

1. His intent is obvious

and

2. Because he can be quite funny at times.

You, however, are a wolf in sheep's clothing. The fact that people "target" you should tell you something, but it doesn't. As I wrote before, if you didn't act like an arrogant ass, I'd have no gripe with you. And no, JBJ's misdeeds do not excuse yours.

JBJ is also a baiter who doesn't buy most of the shit he slings, he's a muck stirrer, and yes an amusing one so I think that's why less people fight with him. You're giving him what he wants.

Besides beneath his Archie Bunker exterrior, JB knows his shit.

Helped me out a lot with my writing. First by motivating with the constant "You fucking suck, just quit" then when he realized I wasn't thin skinned he started being helpful.

Oh, and Pilot's not a wolf in sheep's clothing. He's a sheep who desperately wants to be a wolf.

 

[lovecraft68]

As for opening with dialogue? I can honestly say I have never thought of it at all. Most don't do it, but when some do it doesn't phase me in the least.

So I don't know why anyone would say you should or shouldn't do it.

I opened my Halloween entry with dialogue. I think it can hook a reader in faster in some cases than a descriptive narrative.

 

[Swilly]

I don't intend to pretend that I don't know what I've learned through training and experience about writing just to make you and/or your friends feel superior to me here.

1. Pretending to be more important than they really are
2. Bragging (subtly but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements
3. Claiming to be an "expert" at many things

It ain't about JBJ. He has very strong opinions about an awful lot, but he doesn't hold himself out to be some kind of all knowing expert as you do.

You have no idea what the credentials of other people on this forum are, but YOU must not be questioned by anyone, because you are the sole authority in your mind. Not only must you not be questioned, but you also find the need to ridicule (often in a very backhanded, snide manner) people asking questions or voicing an opinion. How DARE those newbs invade your space, right? Why, you practically invented this site!

Behave yourself for a month and see what happens. But you won't, because you can't. You have a sickness that prevents you from doing it.

 

[lovecraft68]

1. Pretending to be more important than they really are
2. Bragging (subtly but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements
3. Claiming to be an "expert" at many things

It ain't about JBJ. He has very strong opinions about an awful lot, but he doesn't hold himself out to be some kind of all knowing expert as you do.

You have no idea what the credentials of other people on this forum are, but YOU must not be questioned by anyone, because you are the sole authority in your mind. Not only must you not be questioned, but you also find the need to ridicule (often in a very backhanded, snide manner) people asking questions or voicing an opinion. How DARE those newbs invade your space, right? Why, you practically invented this site!

Behave yourself for a month and see what happens. But you won't, because you can't. You have a sickness that prevents you from doing it.

IT all boils down to getting too many wedgies and swirlies when he was in school.

 

[JKendallDane]

But what do you mean by sparingly? An author should only do it once in a while?

Yeah, PL.

I wouldn't want to read every book or story with that type of opener, and definitely wouldn't try it with even much more than a small percentage of my own scribblings. But an "every so often" lead off with that approach would be pleasantly different as a reader and a good challenge as an author.

JMNSHO...YMMV

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think commenting on someone else's remarks in a feedback/critique thread is...a poor substitute for making intelligent comments on the piece being critiqued. Make it about the piece, not someone else's remarks.

I can't agree with this. If I make comments in a public forum, it's reasonable for other posters to respond to them if they disagree, and it's rarely necessary to start a new thread just for that. Conversations drift; unless it's seriously impeding the original thread topic, a bit of drift isn't a bad thing. If I don't want other posters to respond to my comments, I'll send them direct via private messaging.

I advised the OP to never start a story with dialog. I included my reason; it has no context for the reader... I read oodles and oodles of stories and books, and have yet to read one that opened with dialog that would not have been better opening with another technique.

It certainly can be done badly. But it doesn't seem to have done too much harm to "War and Peace", "The Adventures of Tom Sawyer", "The Stand", "Charlotte's Web", or "Ender's Game", to name a few.

Dialogue, done well, can deliver a lot of context in a short space. "Charlotte's Web" opens with "Where's Papa going with that ax?" - that conveys a lot in six short words!

And sometimes withholding context is a deliberate and effective choice. A hook like Banks' "It was the day my grandmother exploded" can be a great way to get a reader's attention and hold on to them long enough to get them invested in the subtler aspects of the story, before they find out why grandma exploded later in the chapter.

 

[JKendallDane]

Telling someone "never" to do something is instruction. I really can't get over how those trying to protect a writer's choices and creativity here get short shrift compared to the blind leading the blind advice givers. (Of course, on this particular point, I was surprised to see several of my perpetual backbiters agreeing with my point.)

As one of your perceived "perpetual backbiters" Swilly's comment below nails it for me. Both the first sentence and the following two.

You'd see it more often if you avoided using your condescending tone while always tooting your own horn.

It's not your opinions that people take issue with; it's your way of voicing them. For a guy that seems to possess some intelligence, you are extremely ignorant when it comes to this point.

 

[Myikael]

I was born this way, what's your excuse?

 

[Myikael]

Children,

I apologize for letting you into an unfamiliar playground. I'm locking the gate, calling your nannies to come get you, and leaving you alone to wait for them.

When you grow up and act with a modicum of maturity please let me know.

So long.

 

[sr71plt]

Bye, then.

 

[lovecraft68]

I am inspired to start a story,

"I'm taking my ball and going home!" The frustrated poster announced, locking the playground gate and storming off.

If there was a can I would kick it, he thought, listening to the mocking laughter of the idiots behind him.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I was born this way, what's your excuse?

Popular demand.

 

[PennLady]

Yeah, PL.

I wouldn't want to read every book or story with that type of opener, and definitely wouldn't try it with even much more than a small percentage of my own scribblings. But an "every so often" lead off with that approach would be pleasantly different as a reader and a good challenge as an author.

JMNSHO...YMMV

So do you think this is the only technique one should use sparingly? I mean, if you do in fact use this sparingly, then what about the techniques you're left with? Should you use those sparingly as well?

I don't mean to make it a trademark of mine, or to bore readers, but I find to a great extent I simply can't help starting stories this way. When a story comes to me, or I start putting it together or whatever, it seems that 90%+ of the time, the line I start with is spoken dialogue.

I guess I just don't quite see why one should do this "sparingly," and then -- and I'm probably inferring here -- I wonder what other techniques you think one could or should use more often.