Online safety; Tigers in the internet zoo

[ethereal~minx]

... much of ‘online danger’ is not different from dangers with getting together with people you meet offline, say at your local pub or bar....it’s no worse than many bars and ‘hot singles spots’, as far as ‘dangerous persons’ are concerned...

I see it differently Pure. As I indicated in the Online Predator thread, not only was I new to D/s but also new to 'online/chat/messaging... wow, what an experience! Not only was I able to express my TRUE self and be appreciated for who I was but my world was ROCKED to find this D/s realm and how I fit into it~~ self growth and awareness times a million *smiles*
... I am being true to myself, with people I do not know.. and they like me, they listen to me... wow, I do have value!!! it is a beautiful thing to find value in yourself through this medium...so here I am being me, being TRUE and AUTHENTIC! and I believe that YOU (the other person, the one on the other side of the screen, the one that I'm speaking to, the Dom, the wise Olive Tree) is also being AUTHENTIC, is being true... why not? why would I believe any different?
He gains my trust ... not overnight but it doesn't take long... he is GOOD at what he does.. he knows how to maintain the trust even when there are flags..by saying the right things, by manipulating the situation...

Hmmm, I seem to be going a little too in depth.

for me, it seems it is different Online because it is easier for someone to be shifty & deceptive w/o you being aware..
He told me not to come to Lit but never really gave me a reason... well, I do believe there were at least two women here that didn't know about me and I didn't know about them
He told one of them he owned 4 businesses
He's in trouble for embezzling from his friend's business
relentlessly gained the trust of mothers with little boys

Shoot I don't know~
I don't disagree with this Pure but it doesn't mean as much to me as the Online Predator list..it's much more relevant to subs, imo

 

[faery pet]

I think all advice is good advice ...take from it what you will.. but its still a starting point...

im talking from experience..when I first started my discoveries on-line I ran into the fakes, unbalanced and the dangerous.. very scary for a women.. for me I didnt have anyone giving me advice or clues on what to look for, I was easy prey... Ive learned through experience that knowledge protects you..

its nice to see such informative threads

thanks

 

[SexyChele]

Thank you, Pure, for posting this. I think many of us who have "been there, done that" know most of the information given, but it is helpful to review. And it might be invaluable for newbies first coming here.

One thing I do want to point out is that something on the list might have legitimate reasoning in real life. For example: if a man or woman has one or two divorces in their background, it shouldn't immediately set them up for being "unbalanced". That would disqualify something like 75% of all people who have been married! It is import to know of these things, and then to discuss them and find out what happened, what led to the divorce. Granted, you might only hear their side of the story, but using common sense and asking questions (at the appropriate time) can help to put pieces together.

Just wanted to point out that caution should prevail, but looking at the whole person is important as well.

Again, thanks, Pure.

 

[Pure]

Hi Ethereal Minx

I read your comments and have made some modifications. Thanks. The area of internet relations is a big one with lots of stuff.



I am being true to myself, with people I do not know.. and they like me, they listen to me... wow, I do have value!!! it is a beautiful thing to find value in yourself through this medium...so here I am being me, being TRUE and AUTHENTIC! and I believe that YOU (the other person, the one on the other side of the screen, the one that I'm speaking to, the Dom, the wise Olive Tree) is also being AUTHENTIC, is being true... why not? why would I believe any different?
He gains my trust ... not overnight but it doesn't take long... he is GOOD at what he does.. he knows how to maintain the trust even when there are flags..by saying the right things, by manipulating the situation...

I hear you, and have made a couple changes. I think the factor
which makes you object to the analogy
is the newness of the net, IM, email, etc. Specifically, people's experience. What you describe is not unlike a girl from a small town going to her first New York singles bar. She's vulnerable because she's open and trusting, and others may not be.

As far as the slant toward subs, that was in the original (whose intent I'm adopting and whose audience I want to reach), and I believe I'm LESS slanted that way, and more looking at the larger picture.

Thanks again,

J.

 

[Pure]

Thanks for reading, SC. I altered the phrasing a bit.

It's very hard NOT to get into a general guide to online relationships, internet arranged dating, emotional pitfalls, etc.

I did add a couple pieces on the power of 'net and electronic (IM) exchanges.

Apparently the piece lacks the 9 easy ways to tell the bug-eyed monster-without-a trace-of-honor-who'll-devour-your-soul, but, oh well....

Thanks,

J

 

[zipman]

Hey Pure,

There are a lot of good points in your post.

There is one thing I would add and I'll do it from my perspective as the post does read a bit like it's only men that you have to watch out for. The following is a true story that happened to me in real life, but it can happen on the net just as easily.

When I was younger and less cautious, I met a woman while I was on vacation. She was a gorgeous blonde nurse from the south who had an amazing body and a southern accent that could melt ice. We had a torrid three day romance (even though she was there with another guy - dont ask, it's a long enough story). The end of the vacation should have been the end of it, but I was smitten. The sex was incredible and she kept telling me how in love she was with me and how much she wanted to be with me. I should have been suspicious at her infatuation, but I was too flattered.

Sucker that I am, I fell for it, hook line and sinker. Anyway, she was one of those people who always has problems, from an abusive ex-husband to stalkers to financial problems. As I was saying, she had financial problems but she never asked me for money, she just spoke about her financial problems and as I really cared for her, I found myself offering her money to help her out. The kicker was about $800 because she was afraid the stalker was going to hurt her daughter and she needed it for a security system.

The bottom line is people can play upon your emotions and actually make you want to give them money. It was a damn good lesson for me to learn!

 

[Pure]

Zip,

Thanks for your note. I too have been 'taken'--bought into a story. Long before the 'net, though, which underscores my general paralleling of 'net and real life encounters or dangers.

I've made the 'sex' a bit more egalitarian in wording with a number of small changes; I appreciate the hint.

J.

 

[Native Alien]

There is one more thing that every woman should do and if you have daughters, they need to do it too.

Take a self defense course. Even if you are not meeting new people on a regular basis, it is good to know that your loved ones stand a chance in this crazy world.

This has nothing to do with BD/SM and everything with them. I know that the YMCA here offers it and we do one on a regular basis for the younger teen girls at their sleep overs in the gym that the complex has.

 

[Valcorie]

Something that I ran into that is not mentioned. It is accepting files from someone that you meet in a chat room before you get comfortable with them. I had someone attempt to send me a virus. Luckily i didn't accept. It wasn't here. It was in a Yahoo chat room. They PM'd me and said i am your master, to serve me you will accept this yada yada yada.

lol
valcorie

 

[Richard49]

Piggy backing on the Zipman

I have had as many "problems/issues"
with feamles who claim to be submissives

No I have NOT figured out how reconize them
I wish I did

 

[Pure]

Hi Richard,

I hope you are feeling OK, today.

I have had as many "problems/issues"
with females who claim to be submissives

No I have NOT figured out how recognize them
I wish I did

Thanks for your comment. I'm not sure what the issues were. I'd guess that dom's problems are to do with persons of my 'unbalanced' category-- judging by some of the stuff posted.

If so, I wonder why that's a problem. It must be due to not getting at the person's history. Since there, it's usually writ clear.

 

[MissTaken]

To all who are comparing the two posts, this one and the Online Predator.

Pure sent me a rough draft of this, which, admittedly I skimmed. Safety discussion is a good thing.

There are marvelous points in the On line Predator and I know that when I first read it, I found comfort and relief in having something tangible, some guidelines by which to find my way.

There are problems with it, as have been previously discussed.

I am beginning to wonder though...when I first began moderating, it was my plan to re write the Online Predator and try to have it more universally focussed. I am wondering if it is possible.

As for references in the negative, the on line Predator begins with and explanation of it's POV, which many find offensive. It is written by submissives for submissives. So to rehash and discuss it's gender bias, seems a mute point. Although, i don't see that happening yet, but it will.

As for Pure's post and writings, I like them as well.

I particularly like how he stresses your worth as an individual. you are worthy, worthwhile and anyone who feels you are, will allow and facilitate the safety precautions that are recommended.

Secondly, I like that Pure can bring into the discussion, the positives of on line interaction. It is a fine fence we walk when we discuss safety. We do not want to alarm people, but do want everyone to use common sense when getting involved with another.

As for the risks and games played victimizing males, in a sense. A submissive's tools for manipulation can be very harmful to a Dominant's finances, his marriage, his job. Yes, there are people out there, male and female, who do not recognize boundaries and who would, with enough information, cause harm. It isn't only physical harm, although that is where we begin to discuss safety.

Hmm like Maslov's Hierarchy?

 

[Richard49]

IMHO
this is one of those times were there is room for all three of the threads that are going......

I find it so interesting that when abuse of any kind is talked about it is always men that are labled abusers. Yet more men are physical abused in this country then women.

THis does not even take into account other forms of abuse.

Now to be the "BDSM preditor" can not last long in RL
where lifestyle organzations are part of the persons life. The group will find out soon and prevent him/her from hangin tight to long.

 

[Pure]

Hi Miss T,


[...]the 'On line Predator' ... is written by submissives for submissives.

I don't think we know WHO wrote it. Sounds like Andrea Dworkin in an early Alzheimer's period. (She's not submissive.)

As for references in the negative, the on line Predator begins with and explanation of its POV, which many find offensive.

Its POV, while clearly anti-male, is more seriously flawed in being simplistic, esp. in considering the problem of deception and those who are good at it.

Further, as to POV, though I'm biased, I believe that my piece is quite alive to women's issues, and women sub's issues; indeed Zip criticized an earlier draft for too much of that. Hence several parts, NOT dealing with psychopaths, were changed to unisex wording. Fakery and fraud are not the province of any one sex, whereas psychopathy pretty much--say 80%-- is.

 

[lark sparrow]

I enjoyed reading this, Pure. Some general guidelines from the more experienced never hurt, and differing voices/versions will appeal to the crowd they are written for. The safety issues regarding meeting, from online to IRL are really important, as well as caution in exchanging personal info. I don't have any personal horrors to speak of, but I have seen and heard so much - usually temporary drama, and nothing murderous or deadly.

To be more inclusive and realistic, I too think it is important to also realize that not only is not always males who are the predator, but it's not even always self-professed Dom/mes either. A dominant who is new to the world of online D/s can be just as confused, dazzled and trashed. There are women and/or submissives who covertly wear several collars/names online and play the same games the Doms do. In the lesbian D/s community (yes, a sub-culture) males aren't even a part of the equation (except when they pretend to be female), and most of these things can and do occur (including abuse).

I have run into quite a few (female-les/bi/straight) submissives who actually use the Internet (very successfully) as hunting ground for their next meal ticket and home - jumping from living with one Dom/me, to another and another... submissives who play both or many sides of the fence - wherein it is not a known and/or consenting situation for all involved, lots of ommitted info to one or more parties (such as having a r/l spouse/kids, and/or a vanilla lover on or offline, and an online Dom/me) - they aren't even truly available for an open, substantial and r/l relationship yet they get inflamed and self-righteous when they are treated as a game, lied to themselves, find that they have to share the online Dom/me or are cast aside... submissives who have worn 3 online collars in the last month, each one the last and forever love...

submissives who aren't even the gender they claim to be online (usually sub males pretending to be female - tons of stories there - happens over and over, better odds in gettting a Domme)... submissives who stalk, harass and won't take no from a sought Dom/me... submissives who don't really know themselves or what they want, but consistently pursue and manipulate Dom/mes ... the list could go on and on. Beware of the sub who jumps your bones after hi, instantly wants your collar, is your eternal slave, and ready to move in with you immediately... beware of the "sub" looking for vanilla love in all the wrong places, beware of the sub... etc.

Online predation, dishonesty and games cut both ways, truthfully.. two to tango, we're all human, live and learn, and all that jazz.

 

[Pure]

Thanks for the read, LS.

It sounds like the 'exploitive sub' is worth a treatise in and of herself (maybe himself too). As I said to R, however, I generally think of her as falling under 'unbalanced'--i.e. aiming at emotional manipulation and possibly material benefit, as you mention. I'm just not sure if she's to be labelled 'psychopathic.'

I will try, though, to think of a few simple changes that would enlarge the scope of the piece; it's threatening to get too long.

There's no way to cover all the lies, manipulations, exploitations, mind-fucks, financial scams of 'online relationships' in less than book length.... but it would be interesting, indeed

 

[MissTaken]

DVS has some ideas on this...

I would look forward to his input as well.

Pure...thanks again for taking this on. I do like how it is shaping up. And perhaps, we can provide for the majority of preventable eventualities if everyone keeps contributing.

 

[Pure]

Hi to all,

OK, I've had my kick at it. A last revision is posted above. Better balanced in terms of difficult persons of either sex.

Note for dom/mes; you have been heard, so I hope you feel a lot more included.

Thanks to all who've commented, Miss T., and esp. Zipman and Lark Sparrow.

Let me know what you think. Work commitments are calling, so that's about it for the time being.

J.

 

[MissTaken]

Thank you, Pure!

I appreciate your time and effort.

Have happy times with work commitments, really.

 

[Richard49]

Thank you, Pure!

I appreciate your time and effort.

Have happy times with work commitments, really.

ditto

 

[cellis]

Thank you Pure... the depth of your knowledge and your willingness to share it is greatly appreciated.

Predators abound in both genders, and in many guises. Believe me I have met my share.

Unbalanced people exist in all segments of society. I think it is just the nature of what we do in BDSM that makes it seem that there may be a greater prevelance of "weirdos". I also think this lifestyle naturally attracts those who think they can prey on the "innocent", whether they are male or female, Dom/me or submissive.

You have raised some excellent points about meeting someone from the "net". I encourage everyone to have a safe call, to let some one know where they are meeting the person and to never go to that persons home especially if you are a female.

 

[Pure]

Thanks Cellis for your kind remarks.


Thank you Pure... the depth of your knowledge and your willingness to share it is greatly appreciated.

Predators abound in both genders, and in many guises. Believe me I have met my share.

That is draft 6, and the 'unisex' idea seems to fly. I made most types of problem people (fakes, posers, con artists, schemers, thieves, manipulators and exploiters) found equally in both sexes--that's my experience, and impression from reading first person accounts---, except for 1) real psychopaths; 2) strange males posing greater *physical* dangers to women, esp. tied up women in 1-1 private situations.
(Although there are some reports of gay male subs being quite brutalized.)

J.

 

[MissTaken]

With the input and approval of the masses, I would like to replace the Online Predator in the sticky with this piece.

Something that doesn't feel right to me, keepng in mind my profession, is the second category..."unbalanced."

Is there a better word for this?

That category of people certainly exist, but could encompass people who aren't necessarily ill, but simply fresh out of a divorce and not ready for relationships,m but are having fun on line with a long list of buddies and play things.

Perhaps, "Needy or Unbalanced" could be a name for this. OR something to that effect.

Keep the input rolling as Pure has done a great job incorporating input and ideas as well as presenting teh material in an interesting manner.

Safety is so very important, but common sense rules.

I thought of this thread last night. A nice man contacted me. First, repeatedly told me I was beautiful. I buy into attractive to some, but classic beauty isn't part of my make up.
Second, he quickly told me he "wanted to hold me," and felt he could meet my needs adn that I was special. Hmmmm of course I responded with , "You don't even know me yet."
Then, the conversation somehow, moved into the job market for his profession in my area.
Then, when I told him my general location he said he had visited here. I asked where. He couldn't tell me one lick of information about where he was or the area.

I really wondered about this guy. NOt so much that he was a predator, at first, but some of his questions made me think he might be a law enforcement officer or something. "How many Doms do you know?" "Do you attend the social events in your area?" And that he told me he could "love" my children as though they were his own. Then, I realized he could be either law enforcement or a predator or niether.

So many red flags and a polite good night is all he got from me.

Just an example of how little things can add up. But again, he may be legitimate. However, I am just not going to find out.