On assault and BDSM...

[jadefirefly]

I've been hem-ming and haw-ing on whether or not to post this topic here for about a week now, and finally just decided to nut it up and do it.

Before I begin, just to deflect any possible offense anyone might take, allow me to state that I -am- one of the people described below that I am curious about; I am in no way speculating on anyone elses preferences, experiences, or attempting to stick my nose into business I don't know anything about.

When you gather together any reasonably sized group of adults, no matter what the purpose, odds are good that you'll have at least a couple in there that have been sexually abused or assaulted in some way, shape, or form in the past. So I am going to make the conclusion-jump that I am not the only member of these boards with nasty experiences on my record.

What I am curious about is, why would someone who has been abused/assaulted/raped later choose to willingly engage in BDSM-related activities? (most especially on the sub side, although not exclusively.)

I don't pretend to understand why or how I could have had an experience that still gives me nightmares and panic attacks ten years later, while now having such strong sub tendencies. It doesn't seem to be logical to me, am I just missing something obvious?

It just seems backwards. I won't ask if anyone else has similar experiences -- that isn't my business, and it's just rude -- but I just want to know if anyone with a better insight into what drives people (and what encourages them to seek out BDSM-related activities) has any ideas.

I realise I probably sound like a complete idiot, but I respectfully request that all comments along those lines be directed in private PM's. This was -not- an easy post to make, for a multitude of reasons, and I would like to at least see a good discussion grow out of it. Thank you!

 

[Lilith]

No clue really but possibly you seek to have a sense of control (in the case of your chosen submission) in an arena where you have previously had your personal control stripped from you. I feel the choice to submit or not to submit may be the greatest act of control in some regards.

I'm just taking a wild stab as I went in the other direction

I had to edit to say that I am not sure that the need for some sense of control post abuse has any correlation to submissiveness, BDSM or the like. I was just responding to your personal question.

 

[Slutacus]

It's late where I am so I'll keep this short. Still, I hope it helps. I've been assaulted many times, raped once. They were terrifying experiences and very negatively affected the way I see men. I had the bdsm fantasies long before the assaults, it always seemed a part of my sexuality, and eventually I had to pursure them and fulfill them. I don't connect the two things except in one way: the asault experiences have made it harder for me to get what I need because I am so mistrustful of men in general. Nevertheless, that didn't stop a dominant who decided he wanted me from reeling me in. Once in awhile during a heavy scene, something that happened would cause the assualt memories to come back and I'd cry or freeze up, but he knew what to do when that happened, and those experiences diminished over time.

A lot of women get attacked and raped these days. Many are abused as well, by family members. Most of them are vanilla, and remain vanilla after the experience. I think you have sub tendencies because you are submissive, and you need what you need. Assaults, however, can cause submissive tendencies to go underground for many years because the fear of facing anything that superficially resembles the abusive expereince can be very strong.

Whether your next sexual experience is kinky or straight, it'll help you if your partner understands what you've gone through. While there isn't anything he can say or do to stop those memories from being triggered, they'll happen when they happen, it can help him to understand you when you start behaving strangely and negatively to something that would ordinarily be good for both of you.

 

[FurryFury]

The two ladies above have some good points.

Women have always been attacked. That's regrettable but true. I believe society sets up both males and females for this to happen.

I've been assaulted many times and raped as well.

I also had sub fantasies as far back as I can remember.

Maybe one has nothing to do with the other. Maybe there's no way to understand it. BDSM in most people's books has to do with consent on the part of the submissive and the Dom. It is not and should not be about abuse. You can always say no or use your safe word theoretically. So in a way that does give you control. In fact, as a submissive and as a Dom it should be about getting what you really want and, in a way need. If the two were a perfect fit that's what would happen and both would feel fulfilled from the giving and receiving they do together.

I understand why this was hard for you to ask and some of what you may be feeling. I hope you find peace with what you want soon.

Fury

 

[catalina_francisco]

For many the two are not connected, except as you say, many people would expect a submissive who had experienced such things to then turn away from the fantasies and desires she had long held before, even perhaps as some would misguidedly suggest in that she provoked the attack in some way to make fantasy a reality. That is BS but there are still a lot of people who like to blame the victim, look for what they did, not what the perpetrator did.

For those who seek BDSM at some point after they have been a survivor of violence, it is sometimes a way of re-writing history. Though they cannot erase what has happened, they can take their power back through violence in a controlled situation with someone they can trust. Psychologically it establishes self trust again, a sense they can survive it and go on, the reality they can now control what happens to them and not be forced into the victim role for ever more. It is similar to any fear you have, the best way to overcome it and not be crippled by it's power is to face it head on and succeed.

That being said though, you will find just as many survivors of violence in the mainstream, and many into BDSM who have never been abused.

Catalina

 

[brioche]

I don't think that an attack would rid you of any BDSM tendencies any more than a gay person would turn hetero after an extremely negative experience. It's just as much a part of who you are.
We live in a bad world in many ways. What's the statistic? 1 in 3 women has or will be assaulted by the time she turns 16? Not all of those women can be submissives, or we'd be a MUCH larger group.
Yes, I was assaulted, not as bad as others, and yes, it was my fault, in that I didn't listen to that little nagging voice inside that told me I was making a mistake.
Do I think that has to do with my interest in BDSM? I have no idea. Possibly.
But I can tell you that anything I do will have to be much more on the SSC side of things. I don't know if I will ever be someone without a safety word, for example. I think after having that trust violated in such a basic way and your control wrenched from you, it would be very difficult to wholly give it up.
In my case, one of the most difficult parts was that an uncle who had stroked me in sexually suggestive ways then continued to touch me at gatherings for years, reaching out to grab my hand, putting his hand on my knee...he once grabbed me from behind and I tensed up so bad that I pulled a muscle in my neck, burst into tears, and locked myself in the bathroom until my mum came in - and told me I was overreacting .
I finally had the strength to say, "Uncle J is an asshole who should burn in hell and if you're going to keep meeting up for holidays that's fine but don't expect me to be a part of it."
WHILE this was happening there is no way I would have been comfortable submitting. No way, no how.
Now that I've come to terms with it and had my cries about it and another experience? Well, that's different.
I think it's a part of taking things back - I won't LET them ruin my life.
But I don't know if anyone else feels the same.
Hope this helped.

 

[alice_underneath]

I don't pretend to understand why or how I could have had an experience that still gives me nightmares and panic attacks ten years later, while now having such strong sub tendencies. It doesn't seem to be logical to me, am I just missing something obvious?

Jadefirefly,

I wish I knew the answers to your questions, but I don't. I really just want to say two things.

First, I greatly admire your strength and courage in starting this thread.

Second, regarding this -

** Scratch the ticker, it'll be a lot longer than that before he comes home... **

- I am so sorry.

*hugs and more hugs*

Alice

 

[bullaford]

Jade, I have never been abused but my sub/wife has. She, her sister and her brother were all three horribly abused, raped and molested from a very early age. My wife is submissive, her sister is extremely dominant (a Domme) and their brother is as vanilla as he can be.

What I am curious about is, why would someone who has been abused/assaulted/raped later choose to willingly engage in BDSM-related activities? (most especially on the sub side, although not exclusively.)

I don't pretend to understand why or how I could have had an experience that still gives me nightmares and panic attacks ten years later, while now having such strong sub tendencies. It doesn't seem to be logical to me, am I just missing something obvious?

I honestly think that my being in control sexualy, gives her a sense of freedom .. my being in control in everything else, gives her a sense of comfort, protection, peace. Even tho logically she knows that she is not at fault, there was nothing she could do to stop it, she still feels a responsibility to what happened. When I tell her to do things, she is no longer responsible for how she reacts .. I am. Her trust in me not to hurt her is a bit overwhelming at times. We've had our moments when something has triggered a flashback, there are a lot of things on the "cannot do" list ... but her submissiveness is just who she is, just as her sister being dominant is who she is. Sure their past has made them who they are, but no more than mine made me who I am.

If you are missing something obvious then so am I, because I don't pretend to understand how she can let me do the things I do after everything she went thru. I am just happy that I found her.

 

[jadefirefly]

So I guess, you are what you are, and logic be damned, eh?
I think I can live with that.

I guess for some reason I never thought of being submissive as something you -are-, instead of something you choose. Mebbe that's a whole 'nother debate, though. I could see that going for a while.

Thank you all for your responses, and I apologise for my initial defensiveness. I get touchy and cranky if I think people are seeing me when I'm all emotional 'n stuff.

And Alice... you're just a great big sweetie overall. Thank you so much.
(There's good news -- in 11 days, I get to spend a whole week with him! Granted, after that they're taking him back for 12-18 months, but still! )

 

[alice_underneath]

There's good news -- in 11 days, I get to spend a whole week with him!

How fantastic! I bet he is even more excited about this than you are.

Thanks for posting the good news.

Alice

 

[bullaford]

So I guess, you are what you are, and logic be damned, eh?
I think I can live with that.

I guess for some reason I never thought of being submissive as something you -are-, instead of something you choose. Mebbe that's a whole 'nother debate, though. I could see that going for a while.

Thank you all for your responses, and I apologise for my initial defensiveness. I get touchy and cranky if I think people are seeing me when I'm all emotional 'n stuff.

And Alice... you're just a great big sweetie overall. Thank you so much.
(There's good news -- in 11 days, I get to spend a whole week with him! Granted, after that they're taking him back for 12-18 months, but still! )

Jade, no need to apologise for your initial post. I know that I didn't take it as being defensive, just that you were looking for answers to a question that you found hard to ask. I could easily get into a deeper conversation on this subject, I find it very interesting and something that I would like to understand better.

I seem to recall a discussion some time back on whether being Dom/sub is something that you choose or just who you are. I may be wrong tho ... right.

Glad He is coming home for at least a week .. enjoy your time together.

 

[Alladesria]

Dear Jadefirefly,

I know that I am new here but after reading your message I had to post.

First a bit of background, I am a 29 year old woman who has spent her life in abusive situations from the very beginning. My parents were really good at it. As I got older and discovered boys and men, I found that I was running from my family directly into the arms of those who could (and did) do greater harm. After a relationship of 8 years with a man who put new meaning on the word abusive, I have finally decided to get out.

I have been sexually assaulted and raped. I have been verbally berated. I have been thrown and pushed and hit and threatened. I have been denied my freedom in many awful ways. Why would I turn to BDSM?

I ask myself that often. After much introspection, I discovered a few things about myself. I am strong. I am intelligent. I am funny. I am sexy. I am creative. I am valuable. These are not easy things to say, let alone believe about myself, but they are true.

For me giving up control to a partner who is trusted is a form of acceptance. I literally place my body and mind into the hands of someone who knows how precious that gift is. After years of people abusing the privilege it is my choice to hand over the leash. Being my choice allows me to have some control.

In the world of BDSM there are negotiations, communications and safety words. If I am uncomfortable in a scene or with a directive I no longer panic. Although I sometimes flashback, I strive to apprise my partner of specific triggers to avoid. I tell my partner that I am unhappy and we talk about it, work it out.

Being spanked until I cum is a part of who I am. Dropping to my knees and doing all sorts of wonderful nasty things makes me happy. I like sex, it makes me feel good. I like pleasure for the sake of pleasure. Why deny myself that which others tried to take without asking?

I am better than those individuals who sought to control me in negative ways. When I give over control it needs to be spiced with sexual authority. For some reason it makes me feel safe and wanted. This is not to be misconstrued with love. That is a horse of a different color. This is sex. This is a base instinct for me and is part of my over all sense of well being.

Your post was brave. I am honored to share my thoughts with you.

-Ally

 

[catalina_francisco]

While sharing stories and anecdotes about similar experiences can help and are good, my thoughts are if abuse or any major trauma in your life is causing you difficulties and to second guess your actions and thoughts and feelings, it may be time to take it to therapy more so than looking for support from strangers. There is only so far that can go and to get stuck in that space is not fun or growth oriented.

Catalina

 

[jadefirefly]

Alice -- he is! We're both very very excited!

Dear Jadefirefly,

I know that I am new here but after reading your message I had to post.

First a bit of background, I am a 29 year old woman who has spent her life in abusive situations from the very beginning. My parents were really good at it. As I got older and discovered boys and men, I found that I was running from my family directly into the arms of those who could (and did) do greater harm. After a relationship of 8 years with a man who put new meaning on the word abusive, I have finally decided to get out.
<condense>
Your post was brave. I am honored to share my thoughts with you.

-Ally

Thank you, Ally. I'm very glad you posted that, it was really well-said, and made a lot of sense. And I'm happy to see that you're happy!


Catalina, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was seeking any help or support for my own issues with this, that wasn't my intention at all. I was mostly curious as to other people's opinion's or thoughts on the concept in general. I only specified my own experience as a reasoning for my curiousity, and to avoid any issues of "you don't know what you're talking about" responses.
You're probably right, a therapist would probably be an excellent investment at some point. At the moment, though, I am doing well, am not in denial or self-blame for what happened (any more than what really -was- my fault; I did not need to actually be in the situation, and had I been where I was supposed to be that night, it wouldn't have happened) and am coming to terms with myself sexually. All in all, while it took a while, I'm actually starting to like myself.
I hope that nobody thought I was trying to foist problems off on anyone else or ask anyone else to help me. I do have my own thoughts on why I, at least, am what and who I am today, and I was simply curious to see why others chose a similar path, when logic might dictate a desire to avoid those activities instead.

I hope that clarified some! Codiene and prednisone aren't good posting partners. Thanks again, everyone! I'm still a bit twitchy about starting my own threads sometimes....

 

[FurryFury]

Codine? What fun.

I should think it would make posting a bit harder!

What's up? Are you ill?

*hugs*

I'm glad you'll get to see your Honey soon!

Fury

 

[jadefirefly]

Off-topic but it's my thread so I'm allowed to be!

To put it succinctly, I work in a mall, in a children's photography studio, and it started off as a holiday job.

I got sick on October, early. I got sick in October, late. I got sick in November, thanksgiving. I got sick in December, early. And it never. Went. Away.

In all the time since I worked there, I took one sick day early in October, and a half-day last week. And a half-day today, to go to the ER, because I have no health insurance. I've basically just had the same cold for over a month now.

So I got an Rx for codiene cough syrup, for prednisone, for a new inhaler, and for some antibiotics, and I also have to take some basic sudafed stuff too. But hopefully it'll all be gone when I go visit my sweetie in 10 days!!

Okay, all done now!

 

[Alladesria]

At the moment, though, I am doing well, am not in denial or self-blame for what happened (any more than what really -was- my fault; I did not need to actually be in the situation, and had I been where I was supposed to be that night, it wouldn't have happened) and am coming to terms with myself sexually.

Therapy was good for me but I have to tell you something.

Being in literally the wrong place at the wrong time is not your fault. True there are always going to be the "I should haves" and the "What ifs" but the situation happened because your abuser/attacker wanted it to happen. You must try as hard as you can to let go of that last bit of self-blame. I found it to be the most difficult part to let go of because it truly meant that I had zero control over the incident(s). That is a very frightening thing.

Try to let it all go. Give over the blame and doubt and hurt to your abuser. They are the one that caused you harm. I made the words: “This is not my fault” a mantra of sorts. I also created a visual image of a box in my head. I put all the negative, self-defacing thoughts regarding the issue into the box. Then I sealed it up with tape and chains and a huge lock. I mentally handed the box to my abuser(s) and told them it was their burden to carry. Not mine.

Let go of the thoughts that you had a way of changing the outcome. It hurts. I know it does, but you are not to blame here. This is not your fault in any way.

Have fun with your friend and chin up. You have already come so far!

-Ally

 

[FurryFury]

Off-topic but it's my thread so I'm allowed to be!

To put it succinctly, I work in a mall, in a children's photography studio, and it started off as a holiday job.

I got sick on October, early. I got sick in October, late. I got sick in November, thanksgiving. I got sick in December, early. And it never. Went. Away.

In all the time since I worked there, I took one sick day early in October, and a half-day last week. And a half-day today, to go to the ER, because I have no health insurance. I've basically just had the same cold for over a month now.

So I got an Rx for codiene cough syrup, for prednisone, for a new inhaler, and for some antibiotics, and I also have to take some basic sudafed stuff too. But hopefully it'll all be gone when I go visit my sweetie in 10 days!!

Okay, all done now!

*HUGS*

Sorry to hear it. Hope you are well soon! That syrup makes my head feel like it's hardening with wet concrete inside it and about to burst open. I hope it actually helps you!

Fury

 

[jadefirefly]

Therapy was good for me but I have to tell you something.

Being in literally the wrong place at the wrong time is not your fault. True there are always going to be the "I should haves" and the "What ifs" but the situation happened because your abuser/attacker wanted it to happen. You must try as hard as you can to let go of that last bit of self-blame. I found it to be the most difficult part to let go of because it truly meant that I had zero control over the incident(s). That is a very frightening thing.

Try to let it all go. Give over the blame and doubt and hurt to your abuser. They are the one that caused you harm. I made the words: “This is not my fault” a mantra of sorts. I also created a visual image of a box in my head. I put all the negative, self-defacing thoughts regarding the issue into the box. Then I sealed it up with tape and chains and a huge lock. I mentally handed the box to my abuser(s) and told them it was their burden to carry. Not mine.

Let go of the thoughts that you had a way of changing the outcome. It hurts. I know it does, but you are not to blame here. This is not your fault in any way.

Have fun with your friend and chin up. You have already come so far!

-Ally

I don't mean to be difficult, but I'm not so certain I ought to totally claim it's not my fault.

Without going into an unnecessary overabundance of details, the only reason I was where I was that day was because I disobeyed my parents (I was 15) and went with my cousin to her boyfriends house, instead of just spending the evening at her house instead. I also made the choice to be drinking that night; nobody made that choice for me.

While I'm totally for letting go of false blame - "I shouldn't have gone out for a walk that night, I should have worn less attractive clothes, I should have been carrying mace/walking a dog/with a friend" - I just don't believe in not acknowledging the choices I made deliberately, that led to my choosing to put myself in an unknown and dangerous situation.


Furry -- the codiene isn't so bad, oddly enough it's the antihistamines that are making me sleepy now. After a day or two of the stuff, I kind of get used to it.

 

[alice_underneath]

I don't mean to be difficult, but I'm not so certain I ought to totally claim it's not my fault.

Jadefirefly,

In case you have not read it, I would like to direct your attention to a post by Mr. Rathbone that may be of interest to you:

https://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=15530273&postcount=25

With deep respect,
Alice

 

[jadefirefly]

I'd not seen that before, thank you, Alice. I think I'll bookmark that and keep it to read again when I need it.

 

[phoenixstone]

Ah, jeez, you were a kid! 15! 15 year olds are Supposed to rebel! And other people are not supposed to take advantage of that fact. (But they do.) I'm betting if you think about some 15 year old you know, doing Exactly the same thing, you wouldn't think it was 'her fault.' (You might think it was too bad that teens do chancey things, but I bet if it wasn't you, it would be easier to realize that the blame for a rape doesn't lie with the kid who takes stupid, kid chances, but with whomever was out trolling and prowling to take advantage of such a kid.)

My two cents. I was 15, too. (And no, I shouldn't have gone and smoked pot with the adult on our class field trip whose house we were staying in, and yes, as an adult I would be suspicious of anyone who would then offer me a 'free massage' but I trusted adults back then. Kids are ignorant. And he was hunting.)

Yes, you made choices and i bet they seemed exciting and fun at the time. But knowing that would happen, and I'm betting it wasn't fun, would you make the same mistake?

Don't blame a kid for not having an adult's insight. She (the little one in you) doesn't deserve it. Would you be that judgemental of a stranger? I bet you wouldn't!

If I'm out of place commenting, let me know. No offense intended. (I know it took a long time for me to realize what a kid I was back then.)

I don't mean to be difficult, but I'm not so certain I ought to totally claim it's not my fault.

Without going into an unnecessary overabundance of details, the only reason I was where I was that day was because I disobeyed my parents (I was 15) and went with my cousin to her boyfriends house, instead of just spending the evening at her house instead. I also made the choice to be drinking that night; nobody made that choice for me.

While I'm totally for letting go of false blame - "I shouldn't have gone out for a walk that night, I should have worn less attractive clothes, I should have been carrying mace/walking a dog/with a friend" - I just don't believe in not acknowledging the choices I made deliberately, that led to my choosing to put myself in an unknown and dangerous situation.


Furry -- the codiene isn't so bad, oddly enough it's the antihistamines that are making me sleepy now. After a day or two of the stuff, I kind of get used to it.

 

[FurryFury]

I totally agree with Phoenixstone!

I think we all did things that were dangerous at 15 for heaven sake, it's like required!

*HUGS*

Fury

 

[FurryFury]

Furry -- the codiene isn't so bad, oddly enough it's the antihistamines that are making me sleepy now. After a day or two of the stuff, I kind of get used to it.

I'm glad it's not doing to you what they did to me!

Fury

 

[Alladesria]

Phoenixstone, you took the words right out of my mouth.

Jadefirefly, I don't think you are being difficult at all! I think you are overcoming a great and terrible hurt and that your questions and doubts are part an ongoing healing process.

I hope you feel better soon,

Ally