Oh, Now The U.S. Started WW2?????????

[Lost Cause]

Okay, now I'm really pissed about this typical Jap behavior like they did nothing to provoke WW2! I've heard all the bullshit about our embargo caused WW2, despite the invasions of Burma/China/Korea/Vietnam/Phillipines/Guam/Micronesia murdering millions! Now they want their old imperial battleflag restored, as well as their anthem. Now this p.o.s. claims innocence in the SNEAK attack at Pearl. (We didn't drop enough bombs on those bastards)

TOKYO - A government historian said Thursday that the finding of a Japanese midget submarine sunk just before the 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor was evidence that the United States, not Japan, started the war between the two nations.

"The finding provides evidence that it was the Americans who made the first shot, which means the war had already started even before Japan's air attack on Pearl Harbor," said Takehiko Shibata, a historian at the Defense Agency's research institute. "It's been our understanding of how World War II started. Now we have the proof."

The 78-foot (24-meter) submarine was stumbled upon a few kilometers (miles) from Pearl Harbor by researchers conducting training dives. The find proves assertions that the United States fired first against Japan in World War II and inflicted the first casualties.

 

[Sillyman]

Look, there has been plenty of rumor that we knew the Japanese were going to attack us ahead of time and that it was deliberately suppressed so we could have a reason to get involved in the war. It needed to happen.

 

[Angelus]

All I can say is it's a basic loud of shit.

 

[HeavyStick]

placing the blame of WWII on us is a crock of shit... however the sub was sunk before Pearl harbor and there is evidence of the US having advanced knowledge of an imminent attack. finger pointing is all it is.

 

[QuickDuck]

Pull your head out of your arse long enough to read it again.

I did not see where the JAPANESE (sorry i find the term "jap" offensive) said "you started it".

The question should be "why was it there?" ... why was the imperial navy also steaming around in circles with aircraft in the air on the way to Pearl?

As i see it, this was a "spotter", maybe telling the rest of the fleet "hey guys, the carriers aren;t here".

We all know the stories that US intelligence knew about the attack a while before it happened and this is seems to fit in that picture as well.

I saw this on the news last night and thought "oh wow, that's interesting", just as i am sure many many others did.

As for the Japanese flag.... well how many people in the US Southern states, still fly the confederate flag? the flag of a beaten enemy?

It was over 50 years ago... i am not saying we should forget... but that we should forgive.

Maybe you should too.

 

[scylis]

Look, there has been plenty of rumor that we knew the Japanese were going to attack us ahead of time and that it was deliberately suppressed so we could have a reason to get involved in the war. It needed to happen.

there were a number of warning signs that we see NOW that they didn't correctly interperate back then. they (the high ups) never really invisioned Japan attacking the US and so they probably just spaced off anything that might have pointed to an attack. it's called ignorance, and we sure had a lot of it back then.

 

[REDWAVE]

Then and now

WW2 began on September 1, 1939, when Nazi Germany invaded Poland. However, the U.S. government did deliberately provoke and lure Japan into attacking at Pearl Harbor, and definitely had advance knowledge it was coming. In fact, Roosevelt was counting on it: it was the only way to overcome the prevailing "isolationist" sentiment among the American people.

Similarly, Bush intentionally allowed the Sept. 11 attacks to happen. It was the only way to stampede the public behind the right-wing political program the ruling class wants to impose upon us.

 

[QuickDuck]

Re: Then and now

WW2 began on September 1, 1939, when Nazi Germany invaded Poland. However, the U.S. government did deliberately provoke and lure Japan into attacking at Pearl Harbor, and definitely had advance knowledge it was coming. In fact, Roosevelt was counting on it: it was the only way to overcome the prevailing "isolationist" sentiment among the American people.

Similarly, Bush intentionally allowed the Sept. 11 attacks to happen. It was the only way to stampede the public behind the right-wing political program the ruling class wants to impose upon us.

oh i want to be first..... please shut up.

i don;t see why a :"bush bash" should be brought into this thread.

go start yet another one or contribute something intelligent.

 

[scylis]

Re: Re: Then and now

oh i want to be first..... please shut up.

i don;t see why a :"bush bash" should be brought into this thread.

go start yet another one or contribute something intelligent.

goddamnit, you're being too polite about it!

now, repeat after me: "SHUT THE FUCK UP, REDWAVE!"

see? wasn't that easy?

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Pull your head out of your arse long enough to read it again.

I did not see where the JAPANESE (sorry i find the term "jap" offensive) said "you started it".

The question should be "why was it there?" ... why was the imperial navy also steaming around in circles with aircraft in the air on the way to Pearl?

As i see it, this was a "spotter", maybe telling the rest of the fleet "hey guys, the carriers aren;t here".

We all know the stories that US intelligence knew about the attack a while before it happened and this is seems to fit in that picture as well.

I saw this on the news last night and thought "oh wow, that's interesting", just as i am sure many many others did.

As for the Japanese flag.... well how many people in the US Southern states, still fly the confederate flag? the flag of a beaten enemy?

It was over 50 years ago... i am not saying we should forget... but that we should forgive.

Maybe you should too.

NO offense, but

1) If you read the first post, the historian is quoted as saying "the US started WWII, not Japan"

2) U.S. Intelligence knew what? And please be really careful when you answer this one, I am very up on it.

3) What is ignored by the Japanese "historian" are the virtually simultaneous attack on the Philippines, Malayasia, Hong Kong, and Java.

If you want to forgive and forget, that is your perogative, considering how close the IJA and IJN got to taking out Austrailia. Check out a map sometime and see how far Port Moresby is from your coast. Especially since the Japanese got there while the bulk of Austrailia's military manpower was fighting for the British in the Western Desert. A hell of a lot of Diggers died in New Guinea under probably the worst combat conditions of WWII. Please keep in mind that Austrailia did not attack a japanese sub, nor did Britain, the Netherlands, or France.

I suggest you read "Soldiers of the Rising Sun", the definitive book on the history of the IJA from 1870 to 1945. Then feel free to toss around your opinions. At that point, you may actually have one that is educated.

 

[Don K Dyck]

Jap Apologist

It was over 50 years ago... i am not saying we should forget... but that we should forgive.

Maybe you should too.

HI Duckie,

I think you should qualify your sentiments here as being your own rather than representative of Oz as a whole.

The is very little sympathy for the Japs among Oz families who lost relations in the Changi POW camp, on the Burma Slave Railway, the Sandarkan Death March in Borneo, the unarmed nurses machine-gunned on the beaches of Malaya or the servicemen who served on the Kokoda Track where the Japs practised cannibalism.

Recent evidence was uncovered that the HMAS Sydney was sunk off NW Oz by a Jap armed merchantman before December 1941.

Jap schools do not teach about Jap involvement in WWII or the pre-war massacres in China . . . 200,000 civilians at Nanking alone. In my experience, the Japs don't want to know. Neither do they teach about the atrocities performed by Jap troops - these are detailed by Lord Liverpool in "Knights of Bushido".

I think you could argue that the Japs started the Pacific War . . . the only point in contention is at what date.

And like Redwave, I think there are similarities between the start of WWII (Pearl Harbour - sudden, unexpected, surprise attack??) and the present Dubyah 9/11 situation.

 

[JazzManJim]

Re: Jap Apologist

And like Redwave, I think there are similarities between the start of WWII (Pearl Harbour - sudden, unexpected, surprise attack??) and the present Dubyah 9/11 situation.

Wait, wait.

You don't seriously believe that the President of the UNited States ignored the eminent possibility that over ten thousand Americans would be killed and the two most familiar landmarks in this country completely destroyed because he wanted an excuse to kill some impovershed and insane Islamic Militants?

 

[REDWAVE]

No . . .

No, I don't, JMJ. Al Gore is not in any way responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks.

 

[Lasz]

Well they got back at us in Vietnam.

Oh wiat that is a different country, maybe I should go back to the poor american geography thread.

 

[70/30]

I think they had a fair idea that a domestic airliner would be hijacked in Sept 2001. They figured a hostage situation would rally support for campaigns in the middle east, so in that sense I think the administration acted wrongly. Considering how much faith we must put into our military and intelligence agencies, I surely hope that they were aware of that window. However, if the United States had better diplomatic relations with Russia and France we very well could have put together the necessary pieces to prevent part or all of it. For people that claim to be suspicious of the government, not very much of you are suspicious.

 

[JazzManJim]

Re: No . . .

No, I don't, JMJ. Al Gore is not in any way responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks.

Heh. I keep forgetting that he won that pesky Electoral College vote. But I suppose I should thank Al Gore. Without him, we wouldn't have the Internet or "Love Story", both of which I very much like.

 

[Purple Haze]

Make-up!

Somebody powder Lazarus, please?

Is the AC working?

 

[70/30]

Re: Re: No . . .

Heh. I keep forgetting that he won that pesky Electoral College vote. But I suppose I should thank Al Gore. Without him, we wouldn't have the Internet or "Love Story", both of which I very much like.

Classic case where the media knocked Gore down to get a story and prove their influence. Both the Internet claim and Love Story were fabricated/misrepresentations of the facts. Why should the truth get in the way, it's much more entertaining to make things up.

 

[cybergirly]

Re: Re: Re: No . . .

Classic case where the media knocked Gore down to get a story and prove their influence. Both the Internet claim and Love Story were fabricated/misrepresentations of the facts. Why should the truth get in the way, it's much more entertaining to make things up.

Are you saying Gore didn't invent the internet?

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Re: Then and now

WW2 began on September 1, 1939, when Nazi Germany invaded Poland. However, the U.S. government did deliberately provoke and lure Japan into attacking at Pearl Harbor, and definitely had advance knowledge it was coming. In fact, Roosevelt was counting on it: it was the only way to overcome the prevailing "isolationist" sentiment among the American people.

Similarly, Bush intentionally allowed the Sept. 11 attacks to happen. It was the only way to stampede the public behind the right-wing political program the ruling class wants to impose upon us.

Yep. Provocation. I think it was painting those big fucking targets on the battleship decks that gave it away though.

 

[70/30]

Re: Re: Re: Re: No . . .

Are you saying Gore didn't invent the internet?

Sorry girlie he didn't nor did he make that claim.

 

[Lost Cause]

Japs never apologized for the massacres..

Inflicted on our Allied Brothers and Sisters, as well as the hundreds of thousands civilians brutally raped, murdered, and enslaved all over the Pacific Theatre Of Operations! (Korean Women Forced Comfort Girls) My Father's ship was sunk at Pt. Moresby! His other two were sunk by Kamakazis at Okinawa, and Saipan. To this day, he still has nightmares about those attacks. P.C.? Forgive? Sure, when every fucking bastard that was alive then in the IJA is dead and rotting! The imperial flag is not being resurrected for civilian display, but for official national recognition! (Should Berlin fly the Swastika again?) It is the symbol of the Jap nation's superiority over all they committed atrocities against in the WW2 Pacific operations! To this day, the Japs have not paid restitution to the survivors, nor formally apologized to the offended countries. If they recreate their imperial attitude like before, I hope we don't stop at two cities!

 

[cybergirly]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No . . .

Sorry girlie he didn't nor did he make that claim.

One word for ya: Sarcasm.

 

[JazzManJim]

Re: Re: Re: No . . .

Classic case where the media knocked Gore down to get a story and prove their influence. Both the Internet claim and Love Story were fabricated/misrepresentations of the facts. Why should the truth get in the way, it's much more entertaining to make things up.

It's really, really tough to misrepresent an actual verbatim quote.

From the transcript of the CNN interview with Wolf Blitzer: "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet."

That's actually not true. What he could have claimed, accurately, was that he was a co-sponsor on a bill that expanded the current computer network backbone that later became the backbone for the Internet.

As for the Love Story angle. He said that he had heard that Erich Segal said that both Gore and Tommy Lee Jones were models for a character in "Love Story". That much was true. What he didn't say was that Segal also said that it wasn't true and that Gore was just trying to play up the local hero angle. when Gore was asked about it, he didn't tell the full story. He misrepresented himself and got nailed for it.

He did the same thing with the Love Canal. He calimed to be a much larger part of the final solution to the Superfund problems than he really was. When he was called on it, with proof, he didn't actually fess up, or even say he made a mistake. That much I would have accepted. It happens all the time.

So, no, it wasn't the rabid media tryuing to scald Gore. It was Gore sticking his foot in his own mouth and not having the good sense to remove it when folks pointed it out to him.

 

[QuickDuck]

It was over 50 years ago... i am not saying we should forget... but that we should forgive.

I think you should qualify your sentiments here as being your own rather than representative of Oz as a whole.

Key words Don, "I am not saying we should...."

I did not say that was nation wide feelings, although i get the impression it is a common one, not only towards the Japanese, but many others who have wronged us throughout history.

How do you feel about the Romans over what their lions did to the Christians? Do you hate all Italians because of that too?

Originally posted by RosevilleCAguy
NO offense, but

1) If you read the first post, the historian is quoted as saying "the US started WWII, not Japan"

2) U.S. Intelligence knew what? And please be really careful when you answer this one, I am very up on it.

3) What is ignored by the Japanese "historian" are the virtually simultaneous attack on the Philippines, Malayasia, Hong Kong, and Java.

If you want to forgive and forget, that is your perogative, considering how close the IJA and IJN got to taking out Austrailia. Check out a map sometime and see how far Port Moresby is from your coast. Especially since the Japanese got there while the bulk of Austrailia's military manpower was fighting for the British in the Western Desert. A hell of a lot of Diggers died in New Guinea under probably the worst combat conditions of WWII. Please keep in mind that Austrailia did not attack a japanese sub, nor did Britain, the Netherlands, or France.

Firstly, none taken ... at least till the end.

now your points.

1. i stand corrected. i was looking for quotation marks rather than the reporter stating 'blah blah said this'

2. i said "we all know the the stories". I did not say this was fact, i did not say this was fiction. it is a conspiracy story that has been floating around since almost the time of the actual event. As other people have pointed out (not just Redwave), there is alot of evidence to suggest that the different military intelligence agencies, had at least, recieved warnings.

Now whether they had put it all together wrongly or they knew and suppressed it... i don;t know and did not mean to suggest that i did.

3. Again i need to point to my original statement....
"The question should be "why was it there?" ... why was the imperial navy also steaming around in circles with aircraft in the air on the way to Pearl?

As i see it, this was a "spotter", maybe telling the rest of the fleet "hey guys, the carriers aren;t here". "

While my meaning may not have been conveyed properly, what it was meant to say was that the attack was probably already inbound anyway, when this sinking took place

I know how close they came. My grandfather was the first person outside of Darwin to know it was being bombed,as he was working in the GPO in Sydney at the time as a linesman and was on the phone to darwin as the first bombs dropped in the first and second air raids (yeah he got lucky the second time around as well).

My other grandfather was, at the time, in the R.A.F in the UK.

Understand i am not debating ANY of history, I am simply saying that the events of the past, should be kept there... hence my statement to forgive, but not forget.

I suggest you read my post again and stop putting in words that i did not say. Then feel free to toss around your OPINIONS (key word there that i just thought i would highlight). At that point, you may actually have one that shows respect to other members of the human race.