Objecting to Rules?

[SweetErika]

I have a scenario (edit: hypothetical and just something I've been thinking about...not asking for advice for myself) and questions...

The situation: Let's say you and your SO have decided to not be monogamous. You've set and agreed upon rules/limits for each other (so, you told them what they can do, and they've done the same for you). Everything is open, there is a solid relationship, and lots of communication. At times, you are okay with what your SO is doing...happy even. However, at other times, you aren't feeling good about it. Even so, you've said over and over you want to stick to the limits you originally set.

The questions: When you, personally, have set rules, at what point do you feel it's okay for you to object, or even voice your discomfort? When you're uneasy, upset, severely uncomfortable, it's starting to destroy relationships, never, or anything in-between? Please explain why you feel the way you do.

Can you have firm rules without stifling communication/discouraging people from sharing their feelings? Can you still communicate your feelings without making your SO feel like they need to restrict themself? If so, how?

Clarifications, follow-up questions, and related discussion are welcome, as always.

 

[bisexplicit]

I think its important to discuss it right off the bat, because I feel like there is really a chance for things to go sour quickly if you don't. Just because the rules were set in place at the beginning doesn't mean you aren't going to need to make adaptions or changes.

 

[bush59]

If as you say you have reservations,or even think you may have reservations/restrictions........the so called Open relationship is doooooooomed.

You are not the "enlightened" "free thinking" individual you thought you wanted to be...you are Ms Average......did you "agree" or "comply" to his wishes....or did you think you were able to cope with this lifestyle?......you cannot.

I personally believe this sort of arrangment....this so called non monogamous way of life,with its discussions,and its adult selfless consideration of your "partners" feelings are in fact selfish and short sighted.We all would like to be free to do as we wish,indulge ourselves,with our partners consent....but it never ,or seldom works out like that for either or both in the relationship.This is the stuff of erotic novels or a bohemian/hippy dream world that in reality has never existed....apart from in some selfish minds.........listen to your concerns.
You say communication is good....are you both talking,and listening? Really listening? really talking? Or just making the right sounds?

Dont be unhappy trying to do the "right" thing......dont be unhappy being "free" to do as you want......dont be "commited" to a non commited lifestyle.....it just dont work.


Or have I read your writings wrong?

 

[Eilan]

Can you have firm rules without stifling communication/discouraging people from sharing their feelings? Can you still communicate your feelings without making your SO feel like they need to restrict themself? If so, how?

Back in my working mom days, I was required to submit a syllabus for each class that I taught. If you've taken college courses, then you know that a syllabus is considered to be a legal agreement of sorts between the student and the instructor. I used to insert a little "cover my ass" statement that said that the syllabus/course schedule were subject to change as needed. Perhaps one of the ground rules of a swinging/open relationship should be that the rules should be periodically reviewed and subject to change as needed?

When it comes to anything sex-related, my hubby and I have always been of the opinion that if one or the other of us is uncomfortable with something at any point, then out of respect for each other, we just won't do it. We might decide to revisit it later, but the decision will be made as a couple. It's not worth any potential resentments that might surface.

Hope that makes sense.

If as you say you have reservations,or even think you may have reservations/restrictions........the so called Open relationship is doooooooomed.

The open relationship, or the relationship itself?

You are not the "enlightened" "free thinking" individual you thought you wanted to be...you are Ms Average......did you "agree" or "comply" to his wishes....or did you think you were able to cope with this lifestyle?......you cannot.

I could be wrong, but I got the impression that SweetErika was bringing up a hypothetical situation for the sake of discussion. Why are you assuming that the male half of the couple is making the all decisions and the female is having some doubts? Nowhere in her post was that information presented to us. Furthermore, questioning the dynamics of an arrangement doesn't necessarily mean that one is unable to cope with it.

I personally believe this sort of arrangment....this so called non monogamous way of life,with its discussions,and its adult selfless consideration of your "partners" feelings are in fact selfish and short sighted.We all would like to be free to do as we wish,indulge ourselves,with our partners consent....but it never ,or seldom works out like that for either or both in the relationship.This is the stuff of erotic novels or a bohemian/hippy dream world that in reality has never existed....apart from in some selfish minds.........listen to your concerns.

I don't think that SweetErika was looking for anyone's opinions/judgment about open relationships. She was asking about input concerning the ground rules of such relationships.

Dont be unhappy trying to do the "right" thing......dont be unhappy being "free" to do as you want......dont be "commited" to a non commited lifestyle.....it just dont work.

You're entitled to your opinion of open relationships, and if you're speaking from experience, then your input/caution might be useful. However, if you don't have any relevant experience with these types of relationships and you're just trying to judge others, then I'm not sure why you're even posting in this thread. She's not asking for opinions about the benefits/pitfalls of open relationships. That's been done quite often in other threads, and as SweetErika's quite familiar with The Blank Manual and other modes of searching at Lit, she's perfectly capable of finding out this information for herself.

There are all types at Lit. Some people think fucking (or wanting to fuck) their family members is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Some people are swingers or have open relationships. Others like a little pleasure with their pain. Getting into the my-kink-is-morally-superior-to-your-kink debate is pretty pointless, as there's a pretty large segment of the population (in the US, anyway) that would condemn all of us simply for being here.

Or have I read your writings wrong?

I doubt that you misread her post. You didn't, however, answer the questions that she was posing.

 

[Casey811]

The questions: When you, personally, have set rules, at what point do you feel it's okay for you to object, or even voice your discomfort? When you're uneasy, upset, severely uncomfortable, it's starting to destroy relationships, never, or anything in-between? Please explain why you feel the way you do.

Can you have firm rules without stifling communication/discouraging people from sharing their feelings? Can you still communicate your feelings without making your SO feel like they need to restrict themself? If so, how?

When you feel the slightest bit of discomfort you need to have an open dialouge with your SO. If you have an open relationship, rules and boundries can change on a day by day basis. Remember, these things aren't written in stone by the hand of God.

You've decided on not being monogamous, but you are still his SO, not whatever side projects he's got going on. He has to make you feel comfy, loved, and secure in your relationship before even thinking of having fun on the side.

If he decides that he's going to ignore the things that are making you upset, it might be high time to seriously re-evaluate your relationship.

 

[SweetErika]

I think its important to discuss it right off the bat, because I feel like there is really a chance for things to go sour quickly if you don't. Just because the rules were set in place at the beginning doesn't mean you aren't going to need to make adaptions or changes.

True, and true. Would you feel the same if the other people offered to increase the limits multiple times, but you insisted on keeping them as you originally set them to be?

 

[SweetErika]

If as you say you have reservations,or even think you may have reservations/restrictions........the so called Open relationship is doooooooomed.

You are not the "enlightened" "free thinking" individual you thought you wanted to be...you are Ms Average......did you "agree" or "comply" to his wishes....or did you think you were able to cope with this lifestyle?......you cannot.

I disagree, as people often have reservations and work through them, but that really wasn't the question. Nor do I think people who choose to practice monogamy are "unenlightened," "close-minded" or "average," just as polyamorous or people who choose to have open relationships aren't necessarily how you described them. No personality type or lifestyle is any better or worse, they're just different.

I personally believe this sort of arrangment....this so called non monogamous way of life,with its discussions,and its adult selfless consideration of your "partners" feelings are in fact selfish and short sighted.

Interesting. A lot of people have open relationships because they enjoy seeing their partners get even more love and happiness. It's not really on-topic, but I'd be curious to know why you feel it's selfish.

We all would like to be free to do as we wish,indulge ourselves,with our partners consent....but it never ,or seldom works out like that for either or both in the relationship.This is the stuff of erotic novels or a bohemian/hippy dream world that in reality has never existed....apart from in some selfish minds.........listen to your concerns.

Actually, it does work for many people, often for the life of the relationship (decades in a lot of cases). Tell them they're selfish and living in a world that doesn't exist.

You say communication is good....are you both talking,and listening? Really listening? really talking? Or just making the right sounds?

Eilan assumed correctly when she said I was not talking about or asking for myself. Let's assume the couple has excellent communication, talking, listening, validating concerns, responsive to needs, etc.

Or have I read your writings wrong?

Apparently so, but perhaps it's more clear now.

 

[Cathleen]

Having things set up in advance is required of course but once the plan is put into action then the real learning begins. Actuality and realness trumps theory. In that case, speak up - immediately. Resentments kill.

 

[Bandit58]

Gil and I have a relationship which is open as far as me having sexual playtimes with other women. The rules are:

NO OTHER MEN period. This applies to watching too.

If the other lady is ok with it Gil may watch. However, as he puts it, "my dick stays in my pants".

Quote SweetErika: "A lot of people have open relationships because they enjoy seeing their partners get even more love and happiness."

This is it totally - he loves to see me happy and fulfilled. We have a pic of me with my lady friend as a screen saver. He tells me I am positively glowing in that pic. I feel even more love for him than I thought possible, because he's so unselfish and doesn't want me to deny that part of me as I did for so many years prior.....

 

[SweetErika]

When you feel the slightest bit of discomfort you need to have an open dialouge with your SO. If you have an open relationship, rules and boundries can change on a day by day basis. Remember, these things aren't written in stone by the hand of God.

You've decided on not being monogamous, but you are still his SO, not whatever side projects he's got going on. He has to make you feel comfy, loved, and secure in your relationship before even thinking of having fun on the side.

If he decides that he's going to ignore the things that are making you upset, it might be high time to seriously re-evaluate your relationship.

Good, clear points, and I agree whether we're talking about a males or females.

You've got me thinking, Casey (though anyone's free to answer)...Is it realistic to have a relationship in which the rules change on a daily, or even weekly basis?

 

[SweetErika]

Gil and I have a relationship which is open as far as me having sexual playtimes with other women. The rules are:

NO OTHER MEN period. This applies to watching too.

If the other lady is ok with it Gil may watch. However, as he puts it, "my dick stays in my pants".

Quote SweetErika: "A lot of people have open relationships because they enjoy seeing their partners get even more love and happiness."

This is it totally - he loves to see me happy and fulfilled. We have a pic of me with my lady friend as a screen saver. He tells me I am positively glowing in that pic. I feel even more love for him than I thought possible, because he's so unselfish and doesn't want me to deny that part of me as I did for so many years prior.....

Well said, Bandit. For me, that generosity was a catalyst to be unselfish toward him...why shouldn't he have the same happiness that I have? Suddenly, all of the arguments that had been there previously disappeared.

 

[SweetErika]

Having things set up in advance is required of course but once the plan is put into action then the real learning begins. Actuality and realness trumps theory. In that case, speak up - immediately. Resentments kill.

I read this, and it certainly applies to the topic at hand. However, I also see how your thoughts apply to so many other relationship and life topics. Thanks, Cate.

 

[BlueSugar]

I have a scenario (edit: hypothetical and just something I've been thinking about...not asking for advice for myself) and questions...

The situation: Let's say you and your SO have decided to not be monogamous. You've set and agreed upon rules/limits for each other (so, you told them what they can do, and they've done the same for you). Everything is open, there is a solid relationship, and lots of communication. At times, you are okay with what your SO is doing...happy even. However, at other times, you aren't feeling good about it. Even so, you've said over and over you want to stick to the limits you originally set.

The questions: When you, personally, have set rules, at what point do you feel it's okay for you to object, or even voice your discomfort? When you're uneasy, upset, severely uncomfortable, it's starting to destroy relationships, never, or anything in-between? Please explain why you feel the way you do.

M and I have an open relationship with rules that are fixed, yet allow for change.
1. People we both know equally only.
2. Males he approves of
3. We both have to approve of the 3rd, 4th, etc. members.
4. People we don't know very well or met through other people, are met at a neutral place to have a talk and see if there is any chemistry.
5. Always protection.
6. Have to ask permission first, can't just disapear on each other.
7. M isn't comfortable with ex's, so they're on the "no" list.

M and I object at the first discomfort or sign of stress or even insecure thought- this way destroying the relationship isn't a posibility before we can take away or fix the problem.
I/we feel this way because communication is double important or the relationship wont survive, it will crash and burn double quick. IF it isn't delt with right away, it builds resentment just like any other thing that annoys/upsets you in a relationship.
What people that aren't in poly/swinger/open relationships do not seem to understand *IMHO* is the communication and trust. Because they themselves can't see how it works or they know they couldn't handle this type of relationship. The open relationship people have constant communication, and an (I think) a deeper sense of trust and understanding as well as mutual respect for each other. Deeper sense of trust only because it is a little more tricky to fuck up. Same thing in bdsm relationships you NEED to have trust, clear communication and understanding of limits with this person because of breath play, bondage and pain or serious injury and even death can result, not to mention a break up.

I am in no way underminding the trust in a "vanilla" (regular, plain, traditional, non open) relationship. Because it is just as easy to fuck up, just cheat and not be forgiven. Done, gone, you've disrespected a limit, goodbye. But open relationships are just more complicated.
Or, I should say, as complicated as you make them.

Can you have firm rules without stifling communication/discouraging people from sharing their feelings? Can you still communicate your feelings without making your SO feel like they need to restrict themself? If so, how?

Yes.
I have no restrictions on M, other then don't leave me hanging and wondering where he is and use protection. He can have sessions with exs, have sex with men or women, I don't need to know them as well as he does ... I trust his judgement.
I love him, he loves me. We respect eachother's wishes and limits, and when we are no longer happy together (in an open relationship, or if/when we close it) we will break up then. I can't stress communication enough, or honesty with ourselves and with eachother.
Hes declined a few of my choices, and I him... we discuss, say why, and how we feel. We get it out there so it doesn't eat away at us.

Clarifications, follow-up questions, and related discussion are welcome, as always.

added:
Is it realistic to have a relationship in which the rules change on a daily, or even weekly basis?

Daily, yes. As long as one can put up with it so a weekly/monthly/yearly/regular set of rules is made.
If it changes daily for more then a month or two, I would really need to ask myself why I am dating this person exclusively instead of just dating around.

 

[karndav]

I have a monogomous relationship so maybe I am not qualified to answer but I would think anytime anyone in the relationship became uncomfortable they should immediately discuss it and if needed change the rules.

 

[Casey811]

Good, clear points, and I agree whether we're talking about a males or females.

You've got me thinking, Casey (though anyone's free to answer)...Is it realistic to have a relationship in which the rules change on a daily, or even weekly basis?

What type of relationship?

Monogamous: There is only one rule, don't fuck around on your SO. This is an unbreakable law and no there should be no bending or breaking of rules period.

If it gets to the point where either partner wants to be with another person, it's time for a sit down and figure out what's best.

Polygamous: Yes, rules can and should be molded as often as possible to keep both partners satisfied and happy. But....if you find yourself wanting to change the rules only for your partner ( by feelings of jealousy, envy, hurt) an 'open' relationship just might not be for you.

 

[Eilan]

Monogamous: There is only one rule, don't fuck around on your SO. This is an unbreakable law and no there should be no bending or breaking of rules period.

If it gets to the point where either partner wants to be with another person, it's time for a sit down and figure out what's best.

Something like this happened with my husband and his ex. She'd cheated on him with a couple of different people. He knew that she was unhappy about certain aspects of their marriage (namely their infertility issues) and he tried repeatedly to talk to her about what they could do to heal their relationship. During one of these "conversations," she asked him if he wanted an open marriage. He didn't, and he couldn't believe that she'd asked. It seemed to him that it was an attempt on her part to continue to fuck anyone she wanted, while giving him "permission" to do so in order to ease the guilt she felt for hurting him. Their relationship deteriorated to the point that she eventually stopped concealing what she was doing.

My husband and I met just as his ex was in the process of moving out of their house to live with her boyfriend. Interestingly enough, she had a huge problem with the fact that, despite months of separate bedrooms and moping around on my husband's part, he'd decided to start seeing someone else.

It seems to me that, had he agreed to the open relationship, she wouldn't have been okay with it at all.

Polygamous: Yes, rules can and should be molded as often as possible to keep both partners satisfied and happy. But....if you find yourself wanting to change the rules only for your partner ( by feelings of jealousy, envy, hurt) an 'open' relationship just might not be for you.

I agree with this.

 

[SweetErika]

M and I have an open relationship with rules that are fixed, yet allow for change.
1. People we both know equally only.
2. Males he approves of
3. We both have to approve of the 3rd, 4th, etc. members.
4. People we don't know very well or met through other people, are met at a neutral place to have a talk and see if there is any chemistry.
5. Always protection.
6. Have to ask permission first, can't just disapear on each other.
7. M isn't comfortable with ex's, so they're on the "no" list.

M and I object at the first discomfort or sign of stress or even insecure thought- this way destroying the relationship isn't a posibility before we can take away or fix the problem.
I/we feel this way because communication is double important or the relationship wont survive, it will crash and burn double quick. IF it isn't delt with right away, it builds resentment just like any other thing that annoys/upsets you in a relationship.
What people that aren't in poly/swinger/open relationships do not seem to understand *IMHO* is the communication and trust. Because they themselves can't see how it works or they know they couldn't handle this type of relationship. The open relationship people have constant communication, and an (I think) a deeper sense of trust and understanding as well as mutual respect for each other. Deeper sense of trust only because it is a little more tricky to fuck up. Same thing in bdsm relationships you NEED to have trust, clear communication and understanding of limits with this person because of breath play, bondage and pain or serious injury and even death can result, not to mention a break up.

I am in no way underminding the trust in a "vanilla" (regular, plain, traditional, non open) relationship. Because it is just as easy to fuck up, just cheat and not be forgiven. Done, gone, you've disrespected a limit, goodbye. But open relationships are just more complicated.
Or, I should say, as complicated as you make them.

Yes.
I have no restrictions on M, other then don't leave me hanging and wondering where he is and use protection. He can have sessions with exs, have sex with men or women, I don't need to know them as well as he does ... I trust his judgement.
I love him, he loves me. We respect eachother's wishes and limits, and when we are no longer happy together (in an open relationship, or if/when we close it) we will break up then. I can't stress communication enough, or honesty with ourselves and with eachother.
Hes declined a few of my choices, and I him... we discuss, say why, and how we feel. We get it out there so it doesn't eat away at us.

Daily, yes. As long as one can put up with it so a weekly/monthly/yearly/regular set of rules is made.
If it changes daily for more then a month or two, I would really need to ask myself why I am dating this person exclusively instead of just dating around.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences, Blue! It sounds like you and M have a really incredible relationship, and it seems like there's a big emphasis on trust as well as communication and limits. Can I ask...were there certain things that made you trust him, or how did you get to that point where you trust his judgement? Was there ever a fair amount of jealousy? If so, how did you work through it?

 

[BlueSugar]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences, Blue! It sounds like you and M have a really incredible relationship, and it seems like there's a big emphasis on trust as well as communication and limits. Can I ask...were there certain things that made you trust him, or how did you get to that point where you trust his judgement? Was there ever a fair amount of jealousy? If so, how did you work through it?

Within normal scuffs that vanilla couples run into that lead onto rocky territory, we've expressed that we love and trust eachother and aren't ready to part the relationship open or not (after 3, going on 4 years now).

During run ins with people who don't respect the lifestyle, We have learned to trust eachother's judgement.
Some people feel since we're open, they automatically can grope grab or con their way in, they take it as a free ticket instead of a dynamic relationship that demands trust, respect and honesty.
Just because we are open doesn't mean any swinger/single person that comes along we accept into our lives.
We've run into some people that
"she doesn't have to know, even if I am on the 'no' list"
no.
"he wont care about me, lets just go"
no.
or we've just said 'no' to because we didn't feel a vibe with them, that have flipped and said "we're open, you're open, what the FUCK is the problem!?"

And telling eachother about these runs ins as well as the good run ins. Open, and honestly and how we feel. Especially if it was a good situation, some reassurance is nice. We still enjoy being together alone!

Is how we've come to trust eachother.

As far as jealousy, that is how we've come to have the rule that he has final say with the males we accept. I'll suggest, we'll discuss and go from there.
Usually he vetos because of one or a mix of these:
No vibe with the person
Doesn't think I'll be safe
Thinks they'll be sneaky and try the "steal" me away thing bc of attachment
The person isn't emotionally ready and wont be happy.

Sometimes even the last one wont prevent an experience if the person is honest and persistant because they want to give it a try to see if they can handle it, and if not at least they know. We don't make decisions for other people, just for what is best for M and I. I trust and respect his feelings with this one as well as the safe vibe - I am good at "reading" situations and all, but he has that male advantage, there are just somethings that us women wont understand lol.

And for the "tell me where you are, who your with" is my jealousy issue, I don't like being left in the dark. I'd love to know all the dirty details so I can masturbate later or try a new trick for when we're alone together ... but it isn't neccessiary.

We live in a small town, and our last experience was about 4 months ago... so it isn't a constant thing either, just who we are.

 

[Quoll]

...The open relationship people have constant communication, and an (I think) a deeper sense of trust and understanding as well as mutual respect for each other. Deeper sense of trust only because it is a little more tricky to fuck up. Same thing in bdsm relationships you NEED to have trust, clear communication and understanding of limits with this person because of breath play, bondage and pain or serious injury and even death can result, not to mention a break up....

Thanks blue for answering/confirming a long held belief of mine, not having had any serious dealings in either of these fields, I have always thought that for these types of relationship to survive there must be an incredible amount of trust involved, very cool indeed.


I have to agree with everyone else, get in early while it is a small problem/doubt.