Now it has happened

[Svenskaflicka]

A woman has been charged with raping a man.

The man was at a party at a friend's house. He fell asleep-and when he woke up, the woman was fondling him.

Even though the act wasn't consummated, the woman will still be charged with rape, since the man was asleep. (And had therefor no chance of defending himself until he woke up - and by then, the fondling was already taking place.)

The woman risks prison between 2-15 years.







Where this was?



Bergen, Norway.

 

[lewdandlicentious]

Oooohh

Svennie,

I know Bergen, a bit, where does she live????

 

[Wills]

It will never stick. Norwegians and drink! Most Norwegians I know take two days to wake up after an allnight drinking session. The whole town could have had him. He would never have known.

Gloriously strange people the Norwegians. last year I spent two months in Bergen, a light drizzle is considered sunshine, they sit outside sipping capuchino pretending its not raining. On the cafe deck below the studio where I was working they sat huddled in blankets in April pretending it was Spring watching a troop of nutty women taking a daily dip in the icy waters.

Thirty years ago when I first visited Norway you had to make an appointment to buy booze. On the first day you went to a door and joined a queue, when you were admitted you placed your order. The next day you joined another queue to collect and pay for your booze. Only one person was admitted at a time, the delay between order and collection was to give you time to consider the folly of your ways. No wonder they overindulge now.

Naturally the men are worse drinkers than the women so they take advantage of anything that happens to be lying at hand.

Will's

 

[Svenskaflicka]

At first, I felt amused, thinking that you can't rape a man. If his dick is up, he wants it, right?

Then I read the article, and I changed my mind completely. The guy was asleep, and the woman attacked him. When he woke up, he didn't go through with it, like he would have done if he had been interested in having sex with the woman.

Instead, he was upset that she had attacked him, and he reported her to the police.

I think it makes a lot of sense. No-one, male or female, should have to accept getting unwelcome sexual advances from anyone, male or female.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Unwanted advances of a sexual nature happen to just about everyone now and then. Someone taking advantage of you being asleep, drunk, stoned etc. to initiate sexual contact is wrong. If we read that a woman passed up and awoke to find a man fondeling her we would all probably agre it was wrong. I don't see why the sex of the sleeping and awake participant should change the judgement.

-Colly

 

[Guest]

I don't see why the sex of the sleeping and awake participant should change the judgement.

-Colly

It shouldn't. What she did was wrong. Period. Regardless of anything else, she molested a sleeping man who could not give his consent or rejection.

 

[Icingsugar]

Gloriously strange people the Norwegians. last year I spent two months in Bergen, a light drizzle is considered sunshine, they sit outside sipping capuchino pretending its not raining. On the cafe deck below the studio where I was working they sat huddled in blankets in April pretending it was Spring watching a troop of nutty women taking a daily dip in the icy waters.

Bergen is on the top ten list of the wettest places in the world. So you can't really blame them for trying.

About a woman raping a man, are we sure this is the first occurance? I'm pretty sure I read something about a reported "reversed" rape including handcuffs, bedposts and Viagra a few months back... Or maybe that was a story here?

 

[wishfulthinking]

In Australia, our criminal code does not recognise women raping men yet. The best next thing is sexual assualt, or aggravated sexual assualt or something like that. One of the few inequalities that favours women (not saying it is a good thing!)

From what you described, she would only get 'attempted' sexual assualt or whatever in Oz, and the male would get laughed out of town for complaining. Sad as it is, claiming to be raped by a woman would probably not seen as a macho thing to do in Australia, or possibly anywhere.

In response to Icingsugar, there has been a growing awareness of men being raped and beaten by their wives or strangers over the past decade, but complaints are few and far between. Simply the fear of not being believed in reverse.

To be cynical, if she was young and pretty, I think it would be harder for the rape charge to stick. More likely to stick in Oz if he were young and she was older and portrayed as a seductress.

Silly, I know

 

[Dirt Man]

As the old saying goes

"What's good for the goose, is good for the gander." Rape in any form should be untolerated, and not just snickered at as if it were nonsense. Male, or female it is an afront to all of society, and the mark of, or against a truely civilized nation. Beauty too often has been used as a weapon, and more successfully than we would like to believe. Fantasy is not reality, it is a personal imaginary friend that does not exist, and should not ever be confused with what is real.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

 

[wishfulthinking]

I just wanted to add - when I said male victims would get laughed out of town for complaining, I meant mostly by other males! Because in the few cases it has been raised, and I think they were in the UK, it was mostly related to wives bashing their husbands, there is a wrongly perceived view that they must be wimps.

Sorry to be so dark!

 

[Guest]

Re: As the old saying goes

"What's good for the goose, is good for the gander."

Dirt, I get your drift but the epithet you used was a bit troublesome, a little too suggestive in the wrong way is all.
---------------

I would like to hear more comments on this topic. I have no details but it seems to me the man in Svenska's post was molested, not raped. I'm given to understand that a man might be forced to sexual intercourse against his will but still I cannot equate it with the rape and violation of a woman. I am not saying a man cannot suffer from forced sex, but the harm to a woman comes with being penetrated, violated within so that she feels her very "self" has been defiled.

I would like to know how men think they would feel if forced to have sex, even a forced blow- or hand-job. What might it mean to your sense of self, psyche, soul? I'm serious, I have no idea, but cannot imagine it to equate to a woman's thoughts and feelings. That is not a judgement of pain or harm, I just think it comes with the difference in genital makeup, and therefore self identity.

I am limiting my thinking here to adult men, not immature or underage boys or children, and not to anal rape.

Perdita

 

[minsue]

Re: Re: As the old saying goes

Dirt, I get your drift but the epithet you used was a bit troublesome, a little too suggestive in the wrong way is all.
---------------

I would like to hear more comments on this topic. I have no details but it seems to me the man in Svenska's post was molested, not raped. I'm given to understand that a man might be forced to sexual intercourse against his will but still I cannot equate it with the rape and violation of a woman. I am not saying a man cannot suffer from forced sex, but the harm to a woman comes with being penetrated, violated within so that she feels her very "self" has been defiled.

I would like to know how men think they would feel if forced to have sex, even a forced blow- or hand-job. What might it mean to your sense of self, psyche, soul? I'm serious, I have no idea, but cannot imagine it to equate to a woman's thoughts and feelings. That is not a judgement of pain or harm, I just think it comes with the difference in genital makeup, and therefore self identity.

I am limiting my thinking here to adult men, not immature or underage boys or children, and not to anal rape.

Perdita

I certainly can't speak for a man's feelings on this, but in my opinion (after removing comparions of physical pain and injuries) violated is violated.

- Mindy

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: As the old saying goes

... violated is violated.

That goes without saying. I am also not speaking of legalities, and as I said I am not interested in judgemental opinions so much as "real" notions, thoughts, feelings about the subject. Rape is such an endowed word and whether right or wrong carries a feminist agenda. So I truly want to know what the men think. Women too, especially many on this board, but as I'm female I'm more than plainly curious about a man's opinions here.

Perdita

 

[destinie21]

Re: Re: Re: As the old saying goes

I certainly can't speak for a man's feelings on this, but in my opinion (after removing comparions of physical pain and injuries) violated is violated.

- Mindy

I agree with you that violated is violated but I also point out that violated is not "penetrated" It sounds like the man in question was fondled which in m head equates to the same thing as a female being groped. Yes it's harassment and yes it's very upsetting but not something I would compare to having your insides bruised or internal injuries resulting from rape. All of this is IMO of course

 

[wishfulthinking]

Yes, violated is violated, but I have to admit that I view men raping women as the stronger of the two acts (always exceptions) simply because a man comes into a woman, and can inflict a lot of internal damage.

Yes, others may view this differently, but that is what I believe until convinced otherwise!

 

[minsue]

Perdita, Destinie, & Wishful -

I actually agree with all of you. That's why I was trying to look at it without taking physical injury into consideration. While I can do that intellectually, on an emotional level the two will never be the same to me.

Destinie, your use of the word groped did help to put it into a different perspective for me. It really was described as more of a groping than what we would normally consider an assault. While I do not want to downplay the obvious fact that it is ABSOLUTELY wrong to grope anyone esp. an unconscious person, I think it is safe to say most women have been groped by men without our permission at one time or another. I personally couldn't tell you how many times it's happened to me (& that's when I've been conscious) & I'm sure I'm not alone. If it had been a woman that filed those charges, it wouldn't even have made the news. What does that say about us as a society?

- Mindy, much sadder & more frustrated than I was a short time ago.

 

[Guest]

... That's why I was trying to look at it without taking physical injury into consideration.
... much sadder & more frustrated than I was a short time ago.

I'm sorry for the sadness and frustration, Mindy. I thought a long time before posting my questions, but the idea of equating being groped with rape did not sit right with me.

I too wanted to disregard the physical injury. I believe that is often the least harm done. I simply think the sense of violation a woman feels is very different than an assaulted man's, and again I am not judging - simply noting the inherent differences.

I really, really wish the men would speak up.

Perdita

 

[minsue]

I really, really wish the men would speak up.

Me too.

- Mindy

 

[wishfulthinking]

Yes, where are the men?

Physically, I think women suffer the most. But emotionally, I don't think the difference would be that great between the sexes. Both, depending on the situation of course, could feel anger, humiliation, betrayal, violation - a lot of things. However, how they cope would possibly differ.

 

[janus40s]

OK, I'm speaking up...

This is the third time I've tried to write this.

The reason you aren't hearing from men is because it is *extremely* difficult for us to talk about. Women are allowed to talk about feelings of violation without being ridiculed for it... but not men.

I'm sorry for the sadness and frustration, Mindy. I thought a long time before posting my questions, but the idea of equating being groped with rape did not sit right with me.

I would agree. Rape implies penetration. However, if a woman forces herself down on a penis, that is penetration. If someone (man or woman) forcefully penetrates a man with any object, that is also rape.

I too wanted to disregard the physical injury. I believe that is often the least harm done.

If there is physical injury, it is part and parcel of the crime. A sexual attack on a man might include a bent/bruised penis, a torn or bruised rectum and/or injury to the testicles. Need I say more?

I simply think the sense of violation a woman feels is very different than an assaulted man's,

Different, yes. There are things that each gender experiences that the other does not understand. The humiliation of a man is enough to make him... (i.e. "What? You couldn't fight off a woman? What's wrong with you? Are you gay or just a wuss?")

OK, let's just say that it's really really bad, and I can't bring myself to describe it.

and again I am not judging - simply noting the inherent differences.

I appreciate that. However, some of the other posters on this thread have been less than sympathetic and have ridiculed the male point of view before it was even stated.

This is part of what makes it difficult to talk about.

I really, really wish the men would speak up. Perdita

Question: If a man changes his mind and says 'no' while the woman is on top of him ready to lower herself onto him, how hard does he have to fight her off before it's considered rape. (Of course in the reverse situation, all a woman has to do is say 'no').

Answer: Actually, he can't use *any* physical force to "throw her off". If he did, and she got bruised, he would be the abuser, not her. In fact, if she left him with cuts and bruises, it would be further evidence that *he* was the abuser.

A parting thought: Erection does not imply consent. If it did, vaginal lubrication would imply consent for women.

 

[janus40s]

Yes, where are the men?

Posts like this one are a good way of keeping most men from replying to the thread.

Physically, I think women suffer the most.

You wouldn't think that if you had testicles.

But emotionally, I don't think the difference would be that great between the sexes.

The presumption being that men in general don't suffer emotionally as much as women?

Both, depending on the situation of course, could feel anger, humiliation, betrayal, violation - a lot of things.

And men have the additional fear that they might be thrown in jail for having fought off the woman.

However, how they cope would possibly differ.

Yes... men aren't allowed any assistance in the process.

 

[Dirt Man]

Re: Re: Re: Re: As the old saying goes

That goes without saying. I am also not speaking of legalities, and as I said I am not interested in judgemental opinions so much as "real" notions, thoughts, feelings about the subject. Rape is such an endowed word and whether right or wrong carries a feminist agenda. So I truly want to know what the men think. Women too, especially many on this board, but as I'm female I'm more than plainly curious about a man's opinions here.

Perdita

It all comes down to the plumbing:

Okay, if we are on a subway, and my hand happens to caress your ass when the train lurches, am I fondling you, grasping you, or is it just an accident of fate? Could it happen again the next time the train lurches, and the time after that, and would it then be harrassment? Rape? Accidents of fate? Should we be concerned about this happening in everyday life? What if the guy is handsome, rich, or famous? Is it okay then? Do these sound like silly questions to you? If I put them up for a vote how many would vote one way, and how many the other?

This then is the problem: If without your consent, I grabbed your crotch, and started to finger your pussy as you slept, is that a form of rape? If not, then that man wasn't raped, he was just harrassed.

Again it all comes down to the plumbing factor. Most women know what it's like to have their ass cupped, caressed, even pinched by an admirerer. The same can be said for many men under the reverse situation. But they wouldn't call it rape no more than I would. However openly fondling someones genitals is a personal attack if non-consensul, and I'm sure everyone would agree on that. Sexual harrassment is based on several levels of the human conscience as well as being physical, and the same is true for rape. The point is, it was an attack. The same as if a man had punched him in the mouth, or kicked him in the groin for no apparant reason, and without his asking for it, or in a self defense reaction. If the man had been flirting with the women before hand that would be another thing, but from what was said he hadn't. So if it had been a woman under the same set of circumstances, and she woke up with a man fondling, fingering, or licking her pussy it would be considered rape. The emphasis being on her pussy/genitalia here, so the same is true for the man. Had she woken up with the man suckling at her breasts, or fondling, tickling, or kissing her ass it would just have been sexual harassment, and the same is true for the man. It all comes down to the plumbing.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

 

[Guest]

Janus, I thank you. I truly appreciate your comments, I feel significantly more enlightened than before your post.

Perdita

 

[wishfulthinking]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WT: Physically, I think women suffer the most.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Janus: You wouldn't think that if you had testicles.

Hi Janus, I say that women suffer the most, I meant in a majority of cases, because it is really hard to generalise. I believe this because men generally have more strenght on their side, so we are going to have to agree to differ.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WT: But emotionally, I don't think the difference would be that great between the sexes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Janus: The presumption being that men in general don't suffer emotionally as much as women?

I think you misunderstood me. Both would feel violated, humiliated etc, regardless of sex (or age, nationality, whatever).

And yes, women generally have better coping processes because it is ok in society's view for them to express their feelings.

But don't get on your high horse , because women are still considered to have asked for it because they wore short skirts or has had several lovers in the past. A different problem/hurdle than a male being considered a wimp for complaining, but equally difficult.

 

[Guest]

Dirt, it's only my personal opinion but your post is unecessarily prurient in tone. Your use of language above is gratuitous beyond the point and nature of this discussion. I don't know if it's just me but you consistently confuse or bother me (not that it matters to you or anyone but me).

Perdita