Now, I AM confused....

[SexyChele]

This is a quote from Lancecastor, taken from the "Dom Lounge". (As I'm not a "Dom", I do not feel comfortable actually posting there, so I can only hope that taking this quote and posting it to another thread will not upset him overly much, as I do not want to be the recipient of his wrath)

"I share your observations and would add that there are many really fine submissive women on Lit I have met ......but they never post....you need to search them out in the master list for Lit and introduce yourself.

You then find that they will respond as one would expect a lifestyle submissive to respond and in time, matters might proceed."


Okay, the line that has me confused is the second paragraph. When a potential Dom (none of which I have even considered from here at Lit) has contacted me, I respond in my normal way of speaking. I do not put on "submissive voice" or anything, just respond as I would to anyone else. If things progress to email, the same holds true. If we meet, I still stay as, well, me. If the relationship were to progress even further, then my demeanor would probably change, as play is introduced and engaged in.

So - and this is an honest question from a "newbie here - how is a lifestyle submissive expected to respond? I've had some sucess meeting potential Doms at both alt.com and bondage.com, and I've never been "dinged" because I didn't respond as expected. Normally, I am very, very selective and - even in the 'nilla world - very picky about who I spend my time with. So not every potential Dom has even gotten to the email stage due to other factors that I considered would not work out.

Okay, veering off topic, I know.

But my original question remains. And, no, I'm not trying to stir up trouble or contribute to the recent upheavel on the board. It is an honest question (to me), and I would appreciate honest feedback. If this erupts into another hissy match, I will not be around to comment. I simply do not want to go there.

So, any honest answers out there? From subs? Dom/mes? 'Nillas? Everyone/anyone?

Thanks in advance....

 

[P. B. Walker]

It sounds like there is an assumption that just because a female is a submissive, that she will act that way in her everyday life. This may be true with some women, but as a general rule I think it is totally false. I think the same is true of Dom males. You assume they will prance around like "king stud" in their everyday lives. Some do. I don't think most do. In fact, I'm sure there are some Dom males you could meet in an everyday setting and never know at all that they are a Dom male in the BDSM world. Generalizations like this ultimately do more harm than good. But we all tend to use generalizations so that we feel more at ease and to help us feel like we belong. That's just my humble opinion.

- PBW

 

[MissTaken]

I dont' use my "submissive voice" unless W/we have reached a point at which I have offered submission and He has accepted.

No, being a Dom doesn't make you Sir, to my way of thinking.

I am very submissive, but only with respect to that one special person.

Just my opinion after scanning your post, Chele and on my way out the door to chase down kidlings!

I hope I did it justice.

hugs

 

[Lancecastor]

This is a quote from Lancecastor, taken from the "Dom Lounge". (As I'm not a "Dom", I do not feel comfortable actually posting there, so I can only hope that taking this quote and posting it to another thread will not upset him overly much, as I do not want to be the recipient of his wrath)

"I share your observations and would add that there are many really fine submissive women on Lit I have met ......but they never post....you need to search them out in the master list for Lit and introduce yourself.

You then find that they will respond as one would expect a lifestyle submissive to respond and in time, matters might proceed."


Okay, the line that has me confused is the second paragraph. When a potential Dom (none of which I have even considered from here at Lit) has contacted me, I respond in my normal way of speaking. I do not put on "submissive voice" or anything, just respond as I would to anyone else. If things progress to email, the same holds true. If we meet, I still stay as, well, me. If the relationship were to progress even further, then my demeanor would probably change, as play is introduced and engaged in.

So - and this is an honest question from a "newbie here - how is a lifestyle submissive expected to respond? I've had some sucess meeting potential Doms at both alt.com and bondage.com, and I've never been "dinged" because I didn't respond as expected. Normally, I am very, very selective and - even in the 'nilla world - very picky about who I spend my time with. So not every potential Dom has even gotten to the email stage due to other factors that I considered would not work out.

Okay, veering off topic, I know.

But my original question remains. And, no, I'm not trying to stir up trouble or contribute to the recent upheavel on the board. It is an honest question (to me), and I would appreciate honest feedback. If this erupts into another hissy match, I will not be around to comment. I simply do not want to go there.

So, any honest answers out there? From subs? Dom/mes? 'Nillas? Everyone/anyone?

Thanks in advance....

Well, that was partly a dig with reference to all the piss and vinegar.

And partly not.

When I meet a woman I tend towards exactly the same kind of interaction as you do when you meet someone.

Sometimes though, women who advertise themselves as lifestyle submissives are a wee bit gentler, listen rather than dominate the conversation, show some polite deference..little things.

Nothing over the top....more like the sorts of things you'd read in a pre 1960's dating guide....I'm a little bit old fashioned that way and come from that sort of upbringing and culture, so I like it.

I tend to be less attracted to angry, bitter and aggressive women who have perhaps been given a rough ride by men or what have you....and so I tend to avoid them, as I am not prepared to be tarred with their unhappy brush. I'm looking for joy.

That sort also tends to find that I rub them the wrong way, perhaps because I dont buy into their passive-aggressive sulking victim game...I cant say for sure, but I know I like to see more honest character, self-esteem and backbone in someone who might oneday be my lifemate.

Just my take and experience.

But to answer your question directly and in a general sense...I have no preset expectations beyond courtesy, manners, evidence of intelligence, the ability to both articulate and listen, humour, self-esteem, confidence....much the same sort of things women look for in a man, I suspect.

Lance

 

[SexyChele]

PB - I really am glad you gave your opinion. You know I think you are a total sweetie and, as your sig implies "a gentleman perv". (I just so love that!) And yes, I do agree with you - I've met women who were more doormats than anything else believing themselves to be ultimate submissives, and men ordering people about, believing themselves to be "the" Dom of all time. I discount both.

MissTaken - I'm thinking you and I are thinking the same way on this. My total submission is only given to the man who has earned my trust and who is my friend and confidante, as well as my playmate.

Lance - truly, this was not a "dig". If it was taken that way, than I truly am sorry. Had I felt comfortable posting in the "Lounge", I would have addressed it there, rather than starting a new thread. I appreciate your comments, and they do help to clarify where you are coming from sometimes. I do try to be respectful of all individuals, at all times. Now, yes, I do get my dander up, and let my opinion be heard. But it is normally in response to something. I do have to admit to making poor choices in men at times which have left me hurt and mistrustful at times. That is why I am extremely picky and fussy with the men I do choose. I try not to "brush" each man the same, and sometimes I'm even sucessful at it. But then, I have equally run into men who freely "brush" all women with that same paint.

 

[MsWorthy]

Re: Re: Now, I AM confused....

Sometimes though, women who advertise themselves as lifestyle submissives are a wee bit gentler, listen rather than dominate the conversation, show some polite deference..little things.

This is true in my experience with women who have, in reality, turned out to be "lifestyle" material, but that is my preference and what I look for, so perhaps, it is what I notice more.

I don't expect ready-made trust or submission out of the gate, but I do expect to be treated with respect unless I prove myself unworthy of it.

What I have run across online, for the most part, is just the opposite. Most of the self-identified submissives (male and female) I have met, tend to pour it on too thick. They come across too sweet, too selfless, too phony (in my opinion). It becomes easy to spot after a while.

I recommend "starting the way you will finish." Do not put on a persona to impress someone, be yourself. Act the way you will act in life with this person (if it works out). Certainly, you want to put your best foot forward when dating and meeting people, but don't mislead anyone.

~Lifestyle submissives are a different breed, in my opinion, and are pretty rare~

 

[SexyChele]

Re: Re: Re: Now, I AM confused....

What I have run across online, for the most part, is just the opposite. Most of the self-identified submissives (male and female) I have met, tend to pour it on too thick. They come across too sweet, too selfless, too phony (in my opinion). It becomes easy to spot after a while.

I recommend "starting the way you will finish." Do not put on a persona to impress someone, be yourself. Act the way you will act in life with this person (if it works out). Certainly, you want to put your best foot forward when dating and meeting people, but don't mislead anyone.

~Lifestyle submissives are a different breed, in my opinion, and are pretty rare~

First, thank you for responding - I do appreciate it!

The first paragraph above caught my attention, because I've often felt the same way. Not to generalize, because I haven't found it true of everyone, but in large measure I have. And next to some of these gals (sorry, but as a female sub, I compare myself to other females), I sometimes feel like some ungainly, uncouth, Amazon!

I have seen evidence of this in various places online, and I always wondered: "Am I supposed to be acting this way?" Because that is exactly what it would be for me - acting. Yet, I have known, to be fair, women who were genuinely sweet and nice and could name more than a few here at Lit.

I have to thank you for what you say in the second paragragh. Not that I'm seeking validation, but it helps to know, being new to all of this, that it is okay to just "be me". (Besides, that is what I'm most comfortable with, anyway!)

I guess my next item to sort out - after this one - is if I'm truly cut out for the "lifestyle", or if I just enjoy elements of the lifestyle. Hopefully, I've already met a man who can help me determine which might be true for me.

Thank you, again.

 

[Lancecastor]

No need....

PB Lance - truly, this was not a "dig". If it was taken that way, than I truly am sorry. Had I felt comfortable posting in the "Lounge", I would have addressed it there, rather than starting a new thread. I appreciate your comments, and they do help to clarify where you are coming from sometimes. I do try to be respectful of all individuals, at all times. Now, yes, I do get my dander up, and let my opinion be heard. But it is normally in response to something. I do have to admit to making poor choices in men at times which have left me hurt and mistrustful at times. That is why I am extremely picky and fussy with the men I do choose. I try not to "brush" each man the same, and sometimes I'm even sucessful at it. But then, I have equally run into men who freely "brush" all women with that same paint.

...to apologize, SC...the line in my post meant that what *I'd* said originally was in part, a dig ...a reference to the dust-up at the Lit Corral.

But since then, I've been thinking that yes, there are s women that defer extensively from the outset and call me "Sir".

I found the regular females here don't like that sort....there was a gal here a while back who spoke that way and got clobbered pretty good as I recall. She and I got along just fine here and elsewhere.

Some of that stuff is Gorean, some is in a middle Goth type space in my experience....I guess the net/net bottom line is there are all kinds of subs out there versus in here, just as there are all kinds of Doms out there versus the limited range that frequent here.

While it's an interesting ego stroke to be called Sir from the get-go, I find it gets stilted and impersonal without a real friendship being in place first...but I'm more of a traditional, romantic, door-opening kinda guy who likes the friendship thing before getting horizontal, so I often just say I'm a small d dom or dom-lite.....tastes great, less whipping! (ha)...in terms of the heirarchy of dom-ness as spoken about here. Then again, I think there are likely some big fish stories in here, but that's perhaps another thought for another day.

Cheers;
Lance

 

[Quint]

This reminds me of something I found in the early searches for BDSM-related ideas and actions. There was a website I ran across that had a fabulous wealth of tips and tricks, but on the same site was a "Subbie of the Month" area. Amused, I read what people said about said subbies to promote them for this prestigious award, and it was SO saccharine. "sweetsubbie deserves this because she never thinks of herself, always for her Master." "prettypet is always so nice to everyone! she should get this, hands down!"*

Gag me with a wiffle ball.

The way I've found it to be, the only way for me to be the submissive anyone deserves is for me to retain myself. What is the point of ruling a broken peon; where is the challenge of stretching a doormat's limits? My self-esteem and my pride as an individual is what makes me who I am. That is who I choose to give to my Dom.

The incidental details, like listening before speaking and being honest enough to admit when I'm wrong or simply feeling sorry for myself or behaving childishly are just parts of my personality. Subconsciously that may be a result of the submissive side of my personality. Like I've said, I'm still trying to figure out how deep these roots go and how much of my being they've pervaded. I know I rarely think of how I, as a sub, SHOULD behave. I just am.

*names changed to protect the banal

 

[sexy-girl]

if i was starting a new relationship be it a D/s one or a nilla one i would be myself ... i've read enough on here to know enough about how the bad types of dom/dommes abuse submissives at the early stages of the relationship

a D/s relationship is still a relationship in my opinion sexychele you should be yourself and enter the relationship on an equal measure of control/power/respect from both the D and the s to see what the relationship would be and what you each expect


disclaimer i am a nilla so my view might be completely wrong but im trying to give my opinion over here some because i enjoy lurking and reading posts

 

[lilminx]

Chele, I feel much the same way you do. I balk when I get e-mails from men at bondage "demanding" things of me (as you saw in my thread).


Hmmm... according to an above post, there are either women who are a "bit gentler, listen rather than dominate the conversation, show some polite deference" or they are "angry, bitter and aggressive women who have perhaps been given a rough ride by men". Why such dichotomy? There is more than just black and white. Enough with the nasty digs.

 

[WriterDom]

All submissives are individuals and respond in their own way. In private communication I expect common curtesy. Some show respect, and some lay it on a little too thick. Curtesy is enough to keep me interested.

I don't pay much attention to posting styles here because I've always seen the function of the bdsm board to be more informative rather than a meat market. And I have a pretty hard rule about getting close to people who are far away. I don't do much fishing in these parts. The only two I would be interested in are both taken. Not as in Miss Taken, but she's been a pretty good friend too.

 

[lovetoread]

I do not talk to anyone submissively except for my Tiger.

He doesnt allow me to.

I wouldnt do it regardless,as I see submissiveness as being a gift to be given,not just as an expected thing to do.

 

[MissTaken]

I think that WD's point is a good one.

I don't view the board as somewhere I am likely to meet the Dom of my dreams. There are a few that I would be interested in and WD has been a pretty good friend, too!

Anyway, the nature of the board doesn't make me feel submissive or want to act submissive. I want to talk, be given voice and discuss issues.

When I am chatting with a potential Dom, my demeanor is slightly different , but I don't jump immediately into "Sir" etc.

Respect is a good thing in all relationships.

 

[lovetoread]

The only two I would be interested in are both taken. Not as in Miss Taken, but she's been a pretty good friend too.

That was a cute line.

 

[MissTaken]

That was a cute line.

It made me smile.

I have a thing for southern gentleman.

 

[spankableBelle]

i could give thoughts and comments on what's been said on this thread...i recognize myself in some of the posts here...but all i will say is that most of us make mistakes along this road...most of us aren't perfect from the outset, knowing exactly what is and isn't expected...but the learning is not always tolerated...the journey that some find themselves on isn't always a pleasant and easy one...if one talks too sweet, acts too kind, how are they to know unless someone explains to them that is alright to be who they are, AND be the submissive they are at the same time? submission is a gift, but for different Doms, the expectations are different...i see the mistakes i have made with people here...and from those mistakes i have learned that sometimes the real person, is not at all what is desired...the truthful answer when asked 'tell Me about yourself' is not what is wanted...no darkness, no shadows, no sorrow...only smiles are welcomed...but then, my own situation is different than many of you here...some of us are naturally kind and good and giving...some of us are sweet and respectful and curtious...some of us are riddled with hellish wounds and scars from the past...some of us are still seeking, still searching, still trying to figure it all out, still trying amid less than ideal circumstances where and if we'll ever fit in...lovers and Doms are hard to come by, but from my own experience, friends are even harder to come by...i said more than i'd planned...

be well...

belle

 

[lovetoread]

It made me smile.

I have a thing for southern gentleman.

Me too!

 

[James Blandings]

On the subject of submissive demeanor on a discussion board, I have always been perplexed as to why any dominant would want, let alone expect, that submissives would post "submissively".
I have never been able to understand why that would be desirable. If the point of discussion is to learn from ach other, than anything that hampers honest interaction is counter productive, and that includes people holding back or modifying their comments based on the proclaimed orientation of the others in the conversation.
If I were a Dom asking a female sub, how she felt on a given topic, I would want her true opinion, not what she felt a proper submissive should say.

 

[DreamingAngel]

On the subject of submissive demeanor on a discussion board, I have always been perplexed as to why any dominant would want, let alone expect, that submissives would post "submissively".
I have never been able to understand why that would be desirable. If the point of discussion is to learn from ach other, than anything that hampers honest interaction is counter productive, and that includes people holding back or modifying their comments based on the proclaimed orientation of the others in the conversation.
If I were a Dom asking a female sub, how she felt on a given topic, I would want her true opinion, not what she felt a proper submissive should say.

Not saying that he is, but do you maybe think that Lancecastor (and please forgive me, I'm new to this board), maybe expects an honest answer, but in the form of "I'm fine thankyou today, Sir" ... or along those lines.

It's hard for any "true" submissive woman to treat just any man as a "Sir", as that is something between herself and her Master. I do agree that some women do tend to see themselves as "victims", and in doing so they treat any man with a certain hate in their response, and Dominant men don't like that, and rightly so, a true "submissive" woman shouldn't disrespect any man/woman (well in my eyes anyway).

I think submissive women are the smartest women in the world, not all of us are in 24/7 "lifestyle" relationships and some of us never will be, and that's great, as we're all very individual with our needs and wants. That's what makes the BDSM Lifestyle so unique for us all.

Lancecastor, it is hard for a "true" submissive woman to respond in a "true" submissive manner through a Bulletin Board, or an Email or even over the phone ... it is something that we can only hand over to that one special person that we allow to be our Master, after all it is HIM that deserves that side of us. You are a smart man, and I'm sure that you're well aware that submissive women are some of the smartest in the world. Have you ever considered that if you seek them out, they may be "playing" you, and "acting" like a true submissive woman, when the true submissive women are the ones that are sitting on this board stating there "true' inner self's, in their posts.

Thankyou for allowing me to have my say on your boards.

 

[James Blandings]

Not saying that he is, but do you maybe think that Lancecastor (and please forgive me, I'm new to this board), maybe expects an honest answer, but in the form of "I'm fine thankyou today, Sir" ... or along those lines.

It's hard for any "true" submissive woman to treat just any man as a "Sir", as that is something between herself and her Master. I do agree that some women do tend to see themselves as "victims", and in doing so they treat any man with a certain hate in their response, and Dominant men don't like that, and rightly so, a true "submissive" woman shouldn't disrespect any man/woman (well in my eyes anyway).

I think submissive women are the smartest women in the world, not all of us are in 24/7 "lifestyle" relationships and some of us never will be, and that's great, as we're all very individual with our needs and wants. That's what makes the BDSM Lifestyle so unique for us all.

Lancecastor, it is hard for a "true" submissive woman to respond in a "true" submissive manner through a Bulletin Board, or an Email or even over the phone ... it is something that we can only hand over to that one special person that we allow to be our Master, after all it is HIM that deserves that side of us. You are a smart man, and I'm sure that you're well aware that submissive women are some of the smartest in the world. Have you ever considered that if you seek them out, they may be "playing" you, and "acting" like a true submissive woman, when the true submissive women are the ones that are sitting on this board stating there "true' inner self's, in their posts.

Thankyou for allowing me to have my say on your boards.

I would not deign to answer for lancecastor, but I will Tell you that in my view, expectaion of any sort of honorific, or use of protocol outside of common courtesy can be in some cases detrimental to good honest discussion, because many people will slip into the trap of assuming that the sub who uses "Sir" in her response, or uses capitalization protocol is in some way more of a "true" sub than one who does not.

 

[DreamingAngel]

New thought.

What some see as "true", others may not.

We determine things differently, and I'm very glad we do. Think about how boring the acts we have chosen would be if we were all the same.

The only man that will hear Sir from my lips is the man that I choose to be my Master, if that makes me "untrue" then so be it, but he knows how submissive I am, and in my eyes, that's all that counts.

I am a strong independent woman, but when it comes to my sexuality I am a submissive (phrasing here) little girl. Like I said, should that make me "untrue" I accept that with pride.

I do believe though that Lancecastor, was only forming a view, and one that he rightly deserves, it's how we as people construe his words.

Again, thankyou for allowing me to post my thoughts on your boards.

 

[James Blandings]

New thought.

What some see as "true", others may not.

We determine things differently, and I'm very glad we do. Think about how boring the acts we have chosen would be if we were all the same.

The only man that will hear Sir from my lips is the man that I choose to be my Master, if that makes me "untrue" then so be it, but he knows how submissive I am, and in my eyes, that's all that counts.

I am a strong independent woman, but when it comes to my sexuality I am a submissive (phrasing here) little girl. Like I said, should that make me "untrue" I accept that with pride.

I do believe though that Lancecastor, was only forming a view, and one that he rightly deserves, it's how we as people construe his words.

Again, thankyou for allowing me to post my thoughts on your boards.

Dreaming Angel, it is a pleasure to have you sharing your thoughts here,
The only truth that matters is that you be true to your own heart. The dominance and submission in each relationship is unique and special.
My former sub was a professional classical musician. When people would make grandiose claims as to how a "true" sub should behave, I would point out how foolish it would be for me to try to tell her how to play her instrument. In that area, she was by far, the superior partner. Did that make her less of a "true" sub? Of course not. Was I less her master because I recognized her expertise? Again, to make such a claim would be foolish on it's face. But yes, there are those who will claim that only the strictest interpretaion of DS makes one "true". That's nonsense. If that is what works in a particular relationship, that is wonderful. But in BDSM one size deinitely does not fit all.

 

[Lancecastor]

In response....

...to your posts, DreamingAngel, I'd say first that I would not expect or ever require anyone to address me as Sir here or anywhere without there having first been the establishment of a genuine friendship, mutual attraction, and common agreement as to a power exchange in whatever form it might take.

In my posts I mentioned that some women adopt the use of the word Sir or other indications of submission upon introduction...and went on to convey (albeit in less specific words)that while this might be flattering to one's ego, that it actually would serve as a hindrance or barrier to forming the first and most important element between the two...friendship.

As to your last point about where the "true" submissive womqn might be found, I'll say in response that if that little life secret could be isolated and bottled, it would fetch a very pretty penny indeed....for I am not so smart as to know where to meet Her but can only hope to know when I do.

Lance

New thought.

What some see as "true", others may not.

We determine things differently, and I'm very glad we do. Think about how boring the acts we have chosen would be if we were all the same.

The only man that will hear Sir from my lips is the man that I choose to be my Master, if that makes me "untrue" then so be it, but he knows how submissive I am, and in my eyes, that's all that counts.

I am a strong independent woman, but when it comes to my sexuality I am a submissive (phrasing here) little girl. Like I said, should that make me "untrue" I accept that with pride.

I do believe though that Lancecastor, was only forming a view, and one that he rightly deserves, it's how we as people construe his words.

Again, thankyou for allowing me to post my thoughts on your boards.

 

[DreamingAngel]

Re: In response....

...to your posts, DreamingAngel, I'd say first that I would not expect or ever require anyone to address me as Sir here or anywhere without there having first been the establishment of a genuine friendship, mutual attraction, and common agreement as to a power exchange in whatever form it might take.

In my posts I mentioned that some women adopt the use of the word Sir or other indications of submission upon introduction...and went on to convey (albeit in less specific words)that while this might be flattering to one's ego, that it actually would serve as a hindrance or barrier to forming the first and most important element between the two...friendship.

As to your last point about where the "true" submissive womqn might be found, I'll say in response that if that little life secret could be isolated and bottled, it would fetch a very pretty penny indeed....for I am not so smart as to know where to meet Her but can only hope to know when I do.

Lance

Thankyou very much for taking the time to answer me.

I agree, but turning the point around ... if good Masters could be bottled and placed on a shelf, how lucky would a submissive woman be? LOL.

Life places upon us the freedom to be able to move from relationship to relationship and learn along the way, that way, when our true partner comes along we are able to appreciate them for their full worth.

James I fully understand you in what you are saying. I happily agree with you. Thankyou for taking the time to respond to me.

Lancecastor, I think you are a smart man, and sometimes words that are used are interpreted the wrong way, and knowing me, I'll probably construe your words the wrong way too ... one day LOL, but hey that's just the days my brain doesn't want to work.

Thankyou both for taking the time out of your day to answer me.