not spoiling mrs deathlynx' remembrance thread.

[gauchecritic]

I know not everyone is from the USA here, however I feel the need to post this.

Please remember all those people on those planes, all those people in those buildings that died because someone didn't like us as a whole. Innocent people who died because there are people that don't like certain freedoms that we have, that don't like us for being who we are.

This is not to take anything away from those that died and those that lost it's simply what I recall in all the continuing furore.


I think you've (america) been sold a bill of goods about the 'reasons' for 11 Sept.

According to the news reports, quotes, blame and claims after the terrorism what I remember most is the use of the term symbol.

The World Trade Centre. Globalism. Consumerism. Faithlessness.

The American people per se were not the target. They were soft and symbolically richest. It's not and never was about the US, it was and is about Western value systems which appear to be soulless and without any redeeming features concerning spiritual rather than economic wealth. That's the impression I got after September 11.

The events that followed then seemed to become personal to the American people, which is wholly understandable.

But even though I don't actually agree with bman and his 'inside job' I do believe that the disaster was a warmonger's dream and declaring war on a noun was a particularly cynical and calculated move. And in order to make that move the voting public of the US had to have a personal enemy.

Declaring war on a named terrorist organisation was likely internationally iffy but a war on a noun or symbol couldn't really be argued against. Everyone already knew who represented the symbol. But capitalism can't declare war because it's an ideology, so before it could it had to have a champion. To be that champion the US had to be convinced to declare itself as that champion.

That was the bill of goods.
It wasn't that they don't like you personally. It wasn't that they hate your freedoms, you were there, you were huge and you were soft.

 

[cloudy]

It wasn't that they don't like you personally. It wasn't that they hate your freedoms, you were there, you were huge and you were soft.

I agree, and I had a relative die in one of those towers.

I don't disagree with the remembrances going on. To be honest, I don't think my generation, and possibly the one after me, will ever forget it, but at some point, we have to move on.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Gauche

You are so unfair. The purpose of western democracy is to create a world where we can love, debate, go to work and take our kids to the park in safety. That's what we elect governments to do.

The intrinsic freedom and trust (and complacency) of the US system allowed malevolent psycopaths to kill a load of innocent people. It's not just in the US, I think Bali, Indonesia, Madrid, Kenya, UK and others have shared the same distress.

The approach of Al-Qaida is reminiscent of the Crusades. 'You are infidels and must be destroyed'. We have nothing to apologize for. The fact that bman can run a thread here is proof that we are a civilized world.

Allowing extremists, even fundamentalists in our own country, to polarize opinion, would give democracy's enemies solace.

 

[rgraham666]

I was shocked by the events of September 11, but not surprised. My heart goes out to those who lost loved ones that day. Being a Canadian that event didn't cause the deep wounds it inflicted on Americans.

My biggest problem is with the reaction to 9/11. That reaction played right into Bin Laden's hands.

The attack on the Towers was intended to goad the West, especially the US, into attacking an Islamic nation. By doing so the Islamists in Al Qaeda hoped to recreate the conditions in which the Soviet Union was defeated in Afghanistan.

They succeeded.

The people in the current administration had intended to attack Iraq from their first day in office. They had been planning it since the end of the first Bush administration. The fall of the Soviet Union had left a vacuum that left the U.S. as the only world's superpower, and the people in the current administration intended Iraq to be a message to the world about who is now in charge.

But, they couldn't sell that idea to the U.S. public and they knew that. The public would not accept their sons and daughters dying in a foreign land for something as abstract as Pax Americana.

The Towers fell, the public was shocked and horrified, and the administration used that to sell their attack on Iraq.

And now, as Bin Laden hoped, the U.S. is involved in a war which it is going to lose. That war has demoralized the U.S., radicalized much of the Islamic world which has swelled the ranks of the terrorists and it has created a huge well of distrust for the U.S. in the rest of the world, weakening the U.S. greatly as it now has far fewer friends.

I'll say it again. Bin Laden won.

 

[Patriot911]

You're right rgraham, he has won and the U.S. president used it as an excuse to invade Iraq.

We knew it was fundamentalist Islamic people who perpetrated the attack. We should have destroyed Mecca in retaliation. They broke our symbol, we should have shattered theirs and use the wreakage to rebuild ours. Then they would have to worship at our symbol.

 

[cloudy]

You're right rgraham, he has won and the U.S. president used it as an excuse to invade Iraq.

We knew it was fundamentalist Islamic people who perpetrated the attack. We should have destroyed Mecca in retaliation. They broke our symbol, we should have shattered theirs and use the wreakage to rebuild ours. Then they would have to worship at our symbol.

oh, yeah, that would have worked.

Who's alt are you, by the way?

 

[unpredictablebijou]

You're right rgraham, he has won and the U.S. president used it as an excuse to invade Iraq.

We knew it was fundamentalist Islamic people who perpetrated the attack. We should have destroyed Mecca in retaliation. They broke our symbol, we should have shattered theirs and use the wreakage to rebuild ours. Then they would have to worship at our symbol.

Yeah, that eye for an eye thing has always worked SO well. Promotes peace and understanding, solves cultural conflict, really reaches out. And it certainly would have converted the entire Muslim world to our POV if we had destroyed their central symbol.

Frankly, the world trade center was never MY Mecca.

Funny how this sentiment often comes from the lips of supposed followers of Iasus Christos, who was known for his radical ideas about peace.

Either we're a "Christian nation" or we're not. These days we're only using that particular assertion when it's convenient.

*raises eyebrows, wanders off *

bijou

 

[cloudy]

Yeah, that eye for an eye thing has always worked SO well. Promotes peace and understanding, solves cultural conflict, really reaches out. And it certainly would have converted the entire Muslim world to our POV if we had destroyed their central symbol.

Frankly, the world trade center was never MY Mecca.

Funny how this sentiment often comes from the lips of supposed followers of Iasus Christos, who was known for his radical ideas about peace.

Either we're a "Christian nation" or we're not. These days we're only using that particular assertion when it's convenient.

*raises eyebrows, wanders off *

bijou

amen, sister.

 

[English Lady]

amen, sister.

I'll echo that remark.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

amen, sister.

Thanks, darlin'.

I may or may not have lost a family member there. My estranged brother worked there during that period, and no one in the family has heard from him since. He may be gone, or he may be actually Gone. Don't think I will ever know for sure.

An actual "Christian nation" would have had a very different response to that event.

my condolences for your own loss there.

bijou

 

[Patriot911]

Yeah, that eye for an eye thing has always worked SO well. Promotes peace and understanding, solves cultural conflict, really reaches out. And it certainly would have converted the entire Muslim world to our POV if we had destroyed their central symbol.

Frankly, the world trade center was never MY Mecca.

Funny how this sentiment often comes from the lips of supposed followers of Iasus Christos, who was known for his radical ideas about peace.

Either we're a "Christian nation" or we're not. These days we're only using that particular assertion when it's convenient.

*raises eyebrows, wanders off *

bijou

And where did his radical ideas of peace land him? On a cross.

The Islamics will never stop being terrorists. It's all they've ever known. And what has not returning an eye for an eye ever gotten anyone that opposes these terrorists? More victimization. All that is understood in the Middle East is violence. I've been there.

So which should we do? Lay down and die for them to leave us alone? Not going to happen. I say if they're going to continue violence against the Western worlds just because we believe differently than them, that's fine. But I say we ought to hit them back when they hit us.

So go on and raise your eyebrows and preach your peace. They'll listen to it as much as I will.

 

[cloudy]

Thanks, darlin'.

I may or may not have lost a family member there. My estranged brother worked there during that period, and no one in the family has heard from him since. He may be gone, or he may be actually Gone. Don't think I will ever know for sure.

An actual "Christian nation" would have had a very different response to that event.

my condolences for your own loss there.

bijou

Thank you...same to you.

I find it very interesting that the families that have lost loved ones aren't nearly as vitriolic as the people who lost no one, and to whom the names of those lost are just names.

 

[tickledkitty]

So which should we do? Lay down and die for them to leave us alone? Not going to happen. I say if they're going to continue violence against the Western worlds just because we believe differently than them, that's fine. But I say we ought to hit them back when they hit us.

No, you're absolutely right. Let's go blow up Mecca and start World War III. That's a GREAT solution. Kudos to you for being so astute.

 

[cloudy]

And where did his radical ideas of peace land him? On a cross.

So, because violence was done to him, we're supposed to do violence in turn?

The Islamics will never stop being terrorists. It's all they've ever known. And what has not returning an eye for an eye ever gotten anyone that opposes these terrorists? More victimization. All that is understood in the Middle East is violence. I've been there.

See, this is where your intolerance of differences, and...yep, stupidity, start to show. Not all Islamics are terrorists. In fact, an obscurely small number of them are.

So which should we do? Lay down and die for them to leave us alone? Not going to happen. I say if they're going to continue violence against the Western worlds just because we believe differently than them, that's fine. But I say we ought to hit them back when they hit us.

Here's a novel concept: let's go after Bin Laden, the man who instigated and planned the attacks, and stop killing innocent people living in a country where he isn't.

So go on and raise your eyebrows and preach your peace. They'll listen to it as much as I will.

So, go on and preach your hate, and I'll be glad when you and those like you die out.

 

[tickledkitty]

Yeah, that eye for an eye thing has always worked SO well. Promotes peace and understanding, solves cultural conflict, really reaches out. And it certainly would have converted the entire Muslim world to our POV if we had destroyed their central symbol.

Frankly, the world trade center was never MY Mecca.

Funny how this sentiment often comes from the lips of supposed followers of Iasus Christos, who was known for his radical ideas about peace.

Either we're a "Christian nation" or we're not. These days we're only using that particular assertion when it's convenient.

*raises eyebrows, wanders off *

bijou

Thanks for this, bijou. It's pretty much what I wanted to say myself before I became too annoyed to say anything. You said it much better than I could have.

 

[Patriot911]

No, you're absolutely right. Let's go blow up Mecca and start World War III. That's a GREAT solution. Kudos to you for being so astute.

God, I love this place. The differences in views.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I don't think blowing up Mecca would have started WWIII. We have the most devestatingly powerful military machine in the history of mankind, in the US. We would have sparked anger, resentment, maybe some attacks, but the world would not have lined up on sides.

France wouldn't do much more than use the UN to wag a finger at us. Islamic militants would have declared a war upon us. But, it'd be a far cry from WWIII--certainly not on the terms the Cold War feared.

Truly. It would have given us the opportunity to retaliate to their retaliation and turn the Arabian Penninsula into glass. Which would have solved most of the problems. Cultural and Social Extinction isn't a popular idea, these days, but historically... that's how things go.

 

[MagicaPractica]

Rightly or wrongly, I could understand going after Bin Laden as the orchestrator of the attack but not the way it was done. Doesn't seem like we really went after him since we still don't have him. Wouldn't all the money we've spent at war have been more effectively spent infiltrating and fomenting change from within? It would have taken much longer but cost a whole lot less in human life. Communism doesn't seem to have much going on these days. I'd say we had a hand in that. Just how I've always seen it.

 

[tickledkitty]

God, I love this place. The differences in views.

Yeah, me too. I also love how people use alts when they don't have enough guts to say what they want to say using their regular name.

 

[Patriot911]

So, because violence was done to him, we're supposed to do violence in turn?

I was simply stating a fact.

See, this is where your intolerance of differences, and...yep, stupidity, start to show. Not all Islamics are terrorists. In fact, an obscurely small number of them are.

Not all, but as a people they are warlike. Been there? I have. I've seen what they are capable of.

Here's a novel concept: let's go after Bin Laden, the man who instigated and planned the attacks, and stop killing innocent people living in a country where he isn't.

Let the coward stop hiding amongst innocents and I agree. I disagree with the war in Iraq. It was started for Bush's own agenda.

So, go on and preach your hate, and I'll be glad when you and those like you die out.

Such a sweet sentiment from a lover of peace isn't it? You peace lovers will win when the warmongers die? Oh that's just precious. I thought peace lovers would never wish death on anyone.

 

[cloudy]

Not all, but as a people they are warlike. Been there? I have. I've seen what they are capable of.

News flash: Humans are capable of incredibly cruel acts. Religion doesn't make a whit of difference in that fact. And, guess what? You're just as human as anyone else, including people in the middle east, and just as capable of being cruel.

I thought peace lovers would never wish death on anyone.

Your reading comprehension needs work. I didn't wish death on you, I said I would be glad when you and those who think like you die out. Different thoughts, different words.

Work on that.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Not all, but as a people they are warlike. Been there? I have. I've seen what they are capable of.

I'm sorry, but I'm confused now. To which nation were we referring? The "christian" one I reside in, maybe?

b

 

[matriarch]

You're right rgraham, he has won and the U.S. president used it as an excuse to invade Iraq.

We knew it was fundamentalist Islamic people who perpetrated the attack. We should have destroyed Mecca in retaliation. They broke our symbol, we should have shattered theirs and use the wreakage to rebuild ours. Then they would have to worship at our symbol.

Good lord, what kind of moronic war monger are you???

'They broke our symbol'.........Since when were the twin towers - a commercial centre - a symbol for American beliefs and values?? By comparing a centre of finance, money and power with the most sacred and revered religious symbol of Islam, shows just where your priorities stand.

Sheesh.

The Muslim nation did not destroy the twin towers, fundamental muslims did - a minority - just like you!

 

[Patriot911]

Yeah, me too. I also love how people use alts when they don't have enough guts to say what they want to say using their regular name.

I have arrived! Because of my views I am labeled as an Alt. From what I've read here that means either as a newcomer I have hit a nerve or that you want to blame me on someone else. Am I right?

 

[matriarch]

I don't think blowing up Mecca would have started WWIII. We have the most devestatingly powerful military machine in the history of mankind, in the US. We would have sparked anger, resentment, maybe some attacks, but the world would not have lined up on sides.

France wouldn't do much more than use the UN to wag a finger at us. Islamic militants would have declared a war upon us. But, it'd be a far cry from WWIII--certainly not on the terms the Cold War feared.

Truly. It would have given us the opportunity to retaliate to their retaliation and turn the Arabian Penninsula into glass. Which would have solved most of the problems. Cultural and Social Extinction isn't a popular idea, these days, but historically... that's how things go.

There are times when you cold, clinical mind leaves me utterly speechless.

I am so glad I don't have to live in your heart or your head.