Not a whine (well maybe) - re official comps

[iwatchus]

Do substantive events happen in the summer?

vacations are good backdrops for almost anything to happen.

 

[FrancesScott]

Do you think the average reader bothers with the rules?

This writer does…

 

[Kelliezgirl]

This writer does…

If you don't like the terms of the contest, don't enter them.

I'm getting a sense that you've written something you're really proud of and want a contest to enter it in.

The other thing you have to understand is that no one here is against change, but none of us have the means to make any changes.
Laurel and Manu run this place. They don't solicit feedback from us. Even if all of us in the AH were in agreement we represent a small fraction of the authors on this site, and there's no telling if we are reprentative of everyone else.

We aren't trying to be dismissive of your ideas, it's just that we all have things we'd like to see different and we've all accepted that we can't change them.

Consider sending a politely worded message to Laurel making your case for a change. She reads her messages. Who knows, maybe you will be the catalyst for change.

 

[SimonDoom]

Such faulty reasoning, Simon.

How? Don't just state big generalizations. Defend them.

 

[MelissaBaby]

People read lit all the time, but stories entered into contests get significantly more views than non-contest stories.

My Winter Holidays winner has more than twice as many views and votes, and almost nine times as many comments as my next most viewed story.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

How? Don't just state big generalizations. Defend them.

Your logic in that post was faulty, and it's not hard to point it out. What you are saying is:

Laurel and Manu have been running the website for 25 years.
The website is successful and popular.
Therefore, everything they did about the website must have been the right choice.

For all we know, the contests could have been detrimental to Literotica's success, and other things could have offset their negative effect.
Without some kind of thorough analysis, you can't possibly know which choices helped and which didn't. It's like noting that a popular pastry shop has red shelves, and because the shop is successful, red shelves must have been helpful to the business. I am sure you realize that such a conclusion is faulty.

 

[filthytrancendence]

So I guess I feel similarly to Francis about the contests. I don't really expect all of them to appeal to me, but it's a little disappointing that none of them really do, and they don't seem to really change at all, at least not much. So yeah, I haven't done them. That doesn't mean I don't want to participate at all. I see the value of having themes, but none of the available themes have much overlap with any of my personal areas of interest.

Doesn't seem like that much to ask to pick the 1 or 2 less popular ones and mix things up every year. Maybe run a poll on the front page of a half dozen options and let the people decide what they want to see for one, and do an author-only poll for the other. That would give everyone more of a sense of ownership and add enough variety to give those of us that don't find much appealing about the current stable a couple chances per year to find something that better strikes our fancy?

 

[TheLobster]

Am I the only one who thinks the themes are chosen for calendar events spaced about two months apart?

Wait, you're saying that a Nude Day is actually a real holiday? Sir, you've written way too many E&V stories for me to ever believe that!

 

[Kelliezgirl]

My Winter Holidays winner has more than twice as many views and votes, and almost nine times as many comments as my next most viewed story.


View attachment 2552463

Exactly, I've never parsed the numbers on my own stories but I suspect my results are similar without having won.

 

[TheLobster]

Laurel and Manu have been running the website for 25 years.
The website is successful and popular.
Therefore, everything they did about the website must have been the right choice.

Yup; it's called survivorship bias.

If you want to see more examples, just read anything written by a successful Silicon Valley entrepreneur, where he tries to convince you why those particular things he did for his startup were undoubtedly the cause of its success (i.e., getting bought up by Google et al.).
In reality, he almost certainly just got lucky, being at the right place at the right time, and whatever he imagines contributed to his success could equally likely have been neutral or even detrimental to it.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

I don't really expect all of them to appeal to me, but it's a little disappointing that none of them really do, and they don't seem to really change at all, at least not much. So yeah, I haven't done them.

Your Burden story could very easily be a Winter Holidays story. Sis is feeling down and crashes on the couch during the Holidays.

There is nothing especially 'summer' about my auntcest wedding story and it could go up now. But I can wait, so I made a few word tweaks and will put it in the summer contest.

 

[filthytrancendence]

Your Burden story could very easily be a Winter Holidays story. Sis is feeling down and crashes on the couch during the Holidays.

Yeah, I think that's kinda the difference between how some of us think of these things and how you seem to. Not that one or the other is good or bad, it's what it is.

If I did a contest, I wouldn't be looking for a way to make something I'm already doing fit into the theme. I want to take the theme seriously and make something interesting to me specifically within the theme.

I see that's restrictive in a way that's entirely self-imposed. But again, it's what it is. That would be my reason for participating. If I don't have that, I'm not going to do it. Just doesn't feel right to me.

 

[StillStunned]

Wait, you're saying that a Nude Day is actually a real holiday? Sir, you've written way too many E&V stories for me to ever believe that!

Being firmly on the Voyeur side of the category, I think Nude Day is probably the least erotic of the themes. The whole thrill of voyeurism is that it's forbidden, secret, shameful. Well, that and getting to see naked people. So half the thrill, I suppose.

 

[iwatchus]

Wait, you're saying that a Nude Day is actually a real holiday? Sir, you've written way too many E&V stories for me to ever believe that!

Kind of -- its origin is humorous. See here

 

[alohadave]

Yup; it's called survivorship bias.

If you want to see more examples, just read anything written by a successful Silicon Valley entrepreneur, where he tries to convince you why those particular things he did for his startup were undoubtedly the cause of its success (i.e., getting bought up by Google et al.).
In reality, he almost certainly just got lucky, being at the right place at the right time, and whatever he imagines contributed to his success could equally likely have been neutral or even detrimental to it.

Also known as a Just So story. Explaining how something happened based on circumstantial evidence that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the real reason.

 

[iwatchus]

One of the advantages the site of the contests just clicked with me. They want more high quality self contained stories.

Someone recently posted in an another thread the data that even chapter 1 of a self contained story gets fewer views than a self contained story. That is pretty good evidence that readers want more self contained stories. Evidence that I certainly believe that Laurel is aware of.

But the leader boards are dominated by chapter x of some series. @PennyThompson commented on that earlier today. I just noticed it as well. It is hard to find lists of well written single stories, but the contest stories are all self-contained and I expect have a notably higher average rating than a random selection of stories, especially self-contained ones.

And I think many author's like writing series. I am avoiding it now, because they are a tar baby. Buy you already have world building done, characters developed and you get notably higher ratings. And I for one have some degree of separation anxiety from my characters when I finish a series or a long story. So many of us may be incentivized to write some single stories with the contests.

 

[Comshaw]

I think that’s a weird way of putting things. I see variants of that statement a lot around here. “It’s how it’s always been, nothing will change.”

Sure, might be true, but I see nothing wrong with talking about a different approach. Most online communities ossify if they don’t change over time. We do seem to have Zombie comps here. But hey, people like Zombies.

Also you seem to think I’m lying awake at night worrying about this. I was more interested in what people thought. It seems some agree with me and some don’t. Saying “It’s what it is, deal with it!” appears to be something longstanding members reach for very easily.

Perhaps this is part of why this place feels like a club for long-term members, not an organic community where new ideas are welcome.

I get it. I’ll let you get back to the normal topics being disussed ad infinitum. Much more comfortable.

I see you want to get to the grit of this. So let's do it. It's interesting you can take what I said and interpret it as, “It’s how it’s always been, nothing will change.” That was never said, implied or insinuated by me.

What I did say was to try to change it by suggesting it to the powers that be. If they won't change, accept it and move on. Your interpretation and my statement aren't close to the same thing. What you attempted can be classified as a "Red Herring" coupled with "An Appeal to Emotion," informal logic fallacy.

And no, I do not believe you were "interested in what people thought". Had you been, you would have couched it in much different terms. And you wouldn't be taking what I said as a dismissal of your opinion, but only as it was offered, my view of the "problem".

It feels to me like you are looking for validation of your opinion. And when someone disagrees with it, you retreat to the "they are ossified around here and not an organic community where new ideas are welcome" dismissal of anyone else's view.

Additionally, because I don't see the same view as you, you are now going to go into the "it's a good ol' boys club and that's what's wrong with it here" foofaraw? FFS. Yes, most who post here have been around a long time, but if you open your eyes and observe the goings-on, you'll find that there are a lot of tussles that go on, because "the club" isn't all of a like mind. In fact, I'll go so far as to say most have a dearly held opinion on almost everything (yes, me too).

However, it's much easier to dismiss it as a good 'ol boys club instead of observing, absorbing and actually thinking about what's said. It's much more comfortable to snuggle down in that safe mental place where you know everything and never have to consider a challenge to your beliefs.

Before I end, let me address your original premise. You were griping about the contests being too restrictive because they had a theme writers were required to adhere to. I don't agree it's a problem, but I get that you do.

If we don't like something we have things we can do about it: try to change it, accept it as is AND/OR gripe (or discuss) it ad nauseam. That is just plain facts. I can't see more options to be used. If there are more, please feel free to show them to me.

And with that me thinks I've emptied my craw and will be quiet for a spell. Yeah, don't think I can't hear the sighs of relief.

Comshaw

 

[Actingup]

I may be biased because my nude day story was my favorite thing I have written. But I thought there were some clever valid entries. See @Actingup entry about the music festival as an example

Thanks. I found it challenging to come up with an original story when all I wanted to do was sneak off to the lake with my sister, but in the end I enjoyed the contest. It would just be nice to have more variety of contests, perhaps with a three year cycle or something.

 

[SimonDoom]

Your logic in that post was faulty, and it's not hard to point it out. What you are saying is:

Laurel and Manu have been running the website for 25 years.
The website is successful and popular.
Therefore, everything they did about the website must have been the right choice.

For all we know, the contests could have been detrimental to Literotica's success, and other things could have offset their negative effect.
Without some kind of thorough analysis, you can't possibly know which choices helped and which didn't. It's like noting that a popular pastry shop has red shelves, and because the shop is successful, red shelves must have been helpful to the business. I am sure you realize that such a conclusion is faulty.

Obviously, this is a false reading of what I wrote. I did not say what they've done "must have been the right choice."

What I AM saying is that in the absence of certain knowledge I'm willing to presume that they've done what they've done for a reason, and that the burden of proof is on me as a doubter to demonstrate that they're wrong. This is an empirically rational position. The site is successful, and it's been successful for a long time. It seems reasonable to believe that Laurel and Manu have confronted many of these issues time and again, and it also seems reasonable to believe they know a lot of things about the operations of the site and its success that you and I don't know.

That's not "faulty" reasoning. It's rational and reality-based. It's buttressed by the fact that I've had conversations with Laurel over the years on a number of issues about which I've had doubts and in almost every case she's messaged me in a prompt and responsive way that indicates that she has good reasons for making the choices that she's making. It doesn't mean she's automatically right, but it means the site's choices should enjoy a rebuttable presumption.

 

[Trionyx]

But the leader boards are dominated by chapter x of some series.

My preference would be to have no more than one chapter of a story in any leader board. That would allow for more standalone stories to rise higher on the leader boards. Off topic I realize, but something that has bugged me for quite some time.

 

[iwatchus]

My preference would be to have no more than one chapter of a story in any leader board. That would allow for more standalone stories to rise higher on the leader boards. Off topic I realize, but something that has bugged me for quite some time.

Someone in a different thread a few months ago suggested two leaderboards, one for series, one for solo stories. I liked that idea and would make it simpler for readers to find what they wanted and let authors writing stand alone stories to get more props.

 

[FrancesScott]

I see you want to get to the grit of this. So let's do it. It's interesting you can take what I said and interpret it as, “It’s how it’s always been, nothing will change.” That was never said, implied or insinuated by me.

What I did say was to try to change it by suggesting it to the powers that be. If they won't change, accept it and move on. Your interpretation and my statement aren't close to the same thing. What you attempted can be classified as a "Red Herring" coupled with "An Appeal to Emotion," informal logic fallacy.

And no, I do not believe you were "interested in what people thought". Had you been, you would have couched it in much different terms. And you wouldn't be taking what I said as a dismissal of your opinion, but only as it was offered, my view of the "problem".

It feels to me like you are looking for validation of your opinion. And when someone disagrees with it, you retreat to the "they are ossified around here and not an organic community where new ideas are welcome" dismissal of anyone else's view.

Additionally, because I don't see the same view as you, you are now going to go into the "it's a good ol' boys club and that's what's wrong with it here" foofaraw? FFS. Yes, most who post here have been around a long time, but if you open your eyes and observe the goings-on, you'll find that there are a lot of tussles that go on, because "the club" isn't all of a like mind. In fact, I'll go so far as to say most have a dearly held opinion on almost everything (yes, me too).

However, it's much easier to dismiss it as a good 'ol boys club instead of observing, absorbing and actually thinking about what's said. It's much more comfortable to snuggle down in that safe mental place where you know everything and never have to consider a challenge to your beliefs.

Before I end, let me address your original premise. You were griping about the contests being too restrictive because they had a theme writers were required to adhere to. I don't agree it's a problem, but I get that you do.

If we don't like something we have things we can do about it: try to change it, accept it as is AND/OR gripe (or discuss) it ad nauseam. That is just plain facts. I can't see more options to be used. If there are more, please feel free to show them to me.

And with that me thinks I've emptied my craw and will be quiet for a spell. Yeah, don't think I can't hear the sighs of relief.

Comshaw

I can feel the steam coming off of your keyboard. What I see a lot here is being dismissive of other people, especially new people, and then getting super upset when this is pointed out, or - heaven forbid - their views are dismissed. I have to add you are far from the worst offender in this respect. But it happens a lot. If you can’t see that, then that’s probably part of the problem.

TBH many on-line communities are like this, it’s not a special Lit problem.

I can see you arguing with each other, it feels like youve been doing it for decades. But it often feels (emotion here, not science) that the one thing old timers have in common is disdain for young whippersnappers who don’t understand how things are here, or question it.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Without the theme, the contest size could be huge, overwhelming the readers with sheer size, and confusing them with unpredictable content. I doubt any reader wants to pick stories off a list of a thousand stories with miscellaneous content. They get that every day from the New list.

How would the winner of an open, anything goes contest be determined? Voting, as in the long overdue annual awards? That is very prone to manipulation. Likes? In the current contests, the unifying theme most likely hones the edges off the differences by category. Without one, I suspect that entries in LW and I/T would not have a chance. Views? No one who doesn't write I/T would bother.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Someone in a different thread a few months ago suggested two leaderboards, one for series, one for solo stories. I liked that idea and would make it simpler for readers to find what they wanted and let authors writing stand alone stories to get more props.

As someone who has been both advantaged and disadvantaged by the current system, I have long advocated that there should be separate story and series leader boards.

 

[Comshaw]

I can feel the steam coming off of your keyboard. What I see a lot here is being dismissive of other people, especially new people, and then getting super upset when this is pointed out, or - heaven forbid - their views are dismissed. I have to add you are far from the worst offender in this respect. But it happens a lot. If you can’t see that, then that’s probably part of the problem.

TBH many on-line communities are like this, it’s not a special Lit problem.

I can see you arguing with each other, it feels like youve been doing it for decades. But it often feels (emotion here, not science) that the one thing old timers have in common is disdain for young whippersnappers who don’t understand how things are here, or question it.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

Everything you said is 100% Grade A "poor me" bull fertilizer, except for us arguing with each other. Yes we do, but in so doing we grow and learn as authors and people.

It's really too bad you are so fragile of psyche and so disdainful of discussion that you must make everyone an enemy to make yourself feel validated. How was I being dismissive of you? I simply stated my opinion of the situation and you interpreted that as being dismissive? You can feel as if I were; I can't tell you how to feel. I can tell you I wasn't being dismissive. If you felt that way it was not my intent, but it's also not my problem. I can't be responsible for your feelings.

But that's not what you are looking for huh? You are seeking to make me feel bad because I don't agree with your assessment of the situation, because I don't kowtow to your particular views. Sorry, but that ain't gunna' happen.

"Many online communities are like this" and "it happens a lot". That sounds like experience talking. The thing I would say is this: If you experience the same thing in many different places with many different people, maybe it isn't those people or places that are the problem. The one common denominator is you. Interesting, huh?

Comshaw