No words

Colleen Thomas

Ultrafemme
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Feb 11, 2002
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BAGHDAD, Iraq - A video posted Tuesday on an al-Qaida-linked Web site showed the beheading of an American civilian in Iraq (news - web sites) and said the execution was carried out to avenge abuses of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison.


In a grisly gesture, the executioners held up the man's head for the camera.


The American identified himself on the video as Nick Berg, a 26-year-old Philadelphia native. His body was found near a highway overpass in Baghdad on Saturday, the same day he was beheaded, a U.S. official said.


The video bore the title "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi shown slaughtering an American." It was unclear whether al-Zarqawi — an associate of Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) believed behind the wave of suicide bombings in Iraq — was shown in the video or simply ordered the execution. Al-Zarqawi also is sought in the assassination of a U.S. diplomat in Jordan in 2002.


The Bush administration said those who beheaded Berg would be hunted down and brought to justice.


"Our thoughts and prayers are with his family," White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan said. "It shows the true nature of the enemies of freedom. They have no regard for the lives of innocent men, women and children."


Berg was a small-business owner who went to Iraq independent of any organization to help rebuild communication antennas, his family said Tuesday. Friends and family said he was a "free spirit" who wanted to help others — working in Ghana, in one example — and that his going to Iraq fit with that ideology. They said he supported the Iraqi war and the Bush administration.


U.S. officials had feared the shocking photographs of U.S. soldiers abusing and humiliating Iraqis at Abu Ghraib prison west of Baghdad would endanger the lives of American troops and civilians.


Also, Berg's killing happened amid a climate of intense anti-Western sentiment, which flared in Iraq after last month's crackdown on Shiite extremists and the three-week Marine siege of Fallujah west of Baghdad. Anger at the United States swelled with the publication of the Abu Ghraib photographs, which continue to stir rage throughout the Arab world.


In the video, five men wearing headscarves and black ski masks stand over a bound man in an orange jumpsuit similar to prison uniforms.


"My name is Nick Berg. My father's name is Michael. My mother's name is Suzanne," the man, seated in a chair, says. "I have a brother and sister, David and Sara. I live in ... Philadelphia."


The video then cuts to Berg sitting on the floor, his hands tied behind his back, flanked by the masked men, as a statement is read in Arabic. Berg sits still during the statement, facing the camera, occasionally raising his shoulders.


After the statement, one assailant takes a large knife from under his clothing while another pulls Berg onto his side. The tape shows assailants thrusting the knife through his neck. A scream sounds before the men cut Berg's head off, repeatedly shouting "Allahu Akbar!" — or "God is great."


They then hold the head out before the camera.


The video is of poor quality, and its time stamp seems to show an 11-hour lapse between when the assailants finish their statement and push Berg down, to when they behead him. That suggests a delay between those two portions of tape posted on the Web site.


The FBI (news - web sites) is analyzing the Internet video, said an official speaking on condition of anonymity, adding that it was too early to draw any conclusions.


The Bergs, who live in the Philadelphia suburb of West Chester, Pa., last heard from their son April 9, the same day insurgents attacked a U.S. convoy west of the capital.

Berg attended Cornell University, Drexel University, the University of Pennsylvania and the University of Oklahoma, where he got involved in rigging electronics equipment while working for the maintenance department, his father said. He helped set up equipment at the Republican National Convention in Philadelphia in 2000.

While at Cornell, he traveled to Ghana to teach villagers how to make bricks out of minimal material. His father said Berg returned from Ghana with only the clothes on his back and emaciated because he gave away most of his food.

Michael Berg said his son saw his trip to Iraq as an adventure in line with his desire to help others.

"I would say he was a free spirit, very intelligent," said Nick Fillioe, a sports director at the West Chester YMCA. "He was a real smart guy. He knew a little bit about everything."

Berg's family said they were informed by the State Department on Monday that he was found dead.

When told about the Web site, Berg's father, brother and sister grasped one another and slowly dropped to the ground in their front yard, where they wept quietly while holding each other.

"I knew he was decapitated before," Michael Berg said. "That manner is preferable to a long and torturous death. But I didn't want it to become public."

The decapitation recalled the kidnapping and videotaped beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in 2002 in Pakistan. Four Islamic militants have been convicted of kidnapping Pearl, but seven suspects — including those who allegedly slit his throat — remain at large.

Last month, Iraqi militants videotaped the killing of Italian hostage Fabrizio Quattrocchi, but the Arab TV network Al-Jazeera refused to air it because it was too graphic.

In the video of Berg, the executioners said they had tried to trade him for prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

"For the mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the U.S. administration to exchange this hostage for some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib and they refused," one of the men read from a statement.

"So we tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins ... slaughtered in this way."

Seven soldiers from the 372nd Military Police Company face charges in the mistreatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib in a scandal that has sparked worldwide outrage. One of those soldiers faces a court-martial in Baghdad next week, the first to go to trial.

The American administrator of Iraq, L. Paul Bremer, said Tuesday that the soldiers accused of abuses would be brought to justice.

"I find the behavior of these American soldiers completely unacceptable and outrageous," Bremer told Associated Press Television News. "I share the outrage of the Iraqi people and the people of the world as to what these guys did."

April 9, when Berg last made contact with his family, also was the day that seven American contractors working for a subsidiary of Halliburton Corp. and two military men disappeared after their supply convoy was attacked on the outskirts of Baghdad.

Four of the Halliburton workers and one of the military men have since been confirmed dead. Halliburton worker Thomas Hamill escaped his captors May 2 and returned home to Mississippi on Saturday. The two other Halliburton workers and the other soldier remain missing.

Two soldiers also vanished April 9. One was later found dead and the other, Pfc. Keith M. Maupin of Batavia, Ohio, was taken captive and remains missing.


I really don't have anything more to say.

-Colly
 
I first heard about it on the radio on my way home from work and spent the rest of the way crying through rush hour freeway traffic.

I agree. There are no words.
 
Shock followed by such sadness.

We've kept the TV off this evening; we have no clue how to explain this horror to our young children.

Prayers for those who grieve.

And prayers for us all as this situation escalates further.
 
I have words for this one. Go after the people that did this with the full weight and might that the United States can muster. Bring them to justice, then give them their just due.
 
Re: Shock followed by such sadness.

sweetsubsarahh said:
We've kept the TV off this evening; we have no clue how to explain this horror to our young children.

Prayers for those who grieve.

And prayers for us all as this situation escalates further.

Oddly enough, it's safe to turn the TV on. I've had it on since I came home two hours ago, and there's been no mention of the war at all.
 
Kind of makes Saddam a little easier to understand, doesn't it?

Think these people will be ready for democracy by June 30th?

---dr.M.
 
dr_mabeuse said:
Kind of makes Saddam a little easier to understand, doesn't it?

Think these people will be ready for democracy by June 30th?

---dr.M.

I've no words for that either.
 
dr_mabeuse said:
Kind of makes Saddam a little easier to understand, doesn't it?

Think these people will be ready for democracy by June 30th?

---dr.M.

I'm not sure any of us will be.
 
Why hasn't there been any coverage of the capture of these people until now? Why all of the obsession over detainees and POW's and not a word about our own soldiers and civilians being captured and killed? No one is less worthy, not Iraqis, American soldiers or American civilian contract employees. I'm deeply saddened by all of it and absolutely sick to my stomach, not only by the fact that this happened to begin with but also by the fact that while there are still people being held captive, more bad news is sure to follow.

~lucky

Bless Mr. Berg and the 700 + others for their sacrifices. They will not be forgotten. :rose:
 
Well thank god those photos didn't cause any backlash.

I don't even know if I want any child of mine in this world.:(
 
lucky-E-leven said:
Why hasn't there been any coverage of the capture of these people until now? Why all of the obsession over detainees and POW's and not a word about our own soldiers and civilians being captured and killed?


There is constant news about hostage-takings - Americans, a group of Japanese, journalists, soldiers, I've lost track. I think it's just been coming at such a steady pace that we tune it out. I remember the first deaths of troops on the ground in Iraq, the first helicopter crash, the first journalist to die, and the first report of a hostage-taking. But when it's happening every day, it stops being news. It's normal. We tune it out.

Those of us who grew up during Vietnam remember news about the war only when something new and unusual happened. The war was always in the news but it was a fact of life. 50,000 deaths can't all make the front pages. They deserve to, but we couldn't stand it.
 
Just seeing the picture of this poor man's father collapsed on his front lawn is heartbreaking enough. To learn your child, who gave so much of himself to strangers, has died in such a senseless manner has to be devastating.
~A~
 
I just can't understand how human beings can actually be able to do something like this nor why they would do such gruesome things. No matter how hard I try, I just can't.
I mean it's not like they are mentally defected like some serial killers, they know what they do and why they do it.
It's a sad, sad world we're living in.
How can religion, believes, anger or whatever lead to something like this ?
We've seen gruesome things before in WW II but people just remain the same.
So no matter whether we're talking about the abuses of the Iraqi prisoners by some few members of the U.S. Military or those terrorist bastards (who have proven once again that they are one step higher on the latter of insanity than even those soldiers that tortured the prisoners), in the end they are just sick fucking perverts.
That's my 2 cents,

Snoopy
 
SnoopDog said:
I just can't understand how human beings can actually be able to do something like this nor why they would do such gruesome things. No matter how hard I try, I just can't.
I mean it's not like they are mentally defected like some serial killers, they know what they do and why they do it.
It's a sad, sad world we're living in.
How can religion, believes, anger or whatever lead to something like this ?
We've seen gruesome things before in WW II but people just remain the same.
So no matter whether we're talking about the abuses of the Iraqi prisoners by some few members of the U.S. Military or those terrorist bastards (who have proven once again that they are one step higher on the latter of insanity than even those soldiers that tortured the prisoners), in the end they are just sick fucking perverts.
That's my 2 cents,

Snoopy

It's called reprisal snoop. The concept has been around since well before Muslim Fanatics, sadistic prison guards, even before organized war. It is one of the primary means by which the German Reich held occupied territories in lock step. Your resistance kills a member of our military we randomly kill X civilians. In the case of Rehinhard Heydrich a whole town was systematically destroyed.

It inevitably leads to an escalation of violence, not a slow down. Revenge killing follows revenge killing, each side trying to show they aren't going to be cowed into submission.

As sick as it seems, the revalation of abuse in the prisions adds a kind of legitimacy to the acts perpatrated by these vile animals. Muslims, Jews, Christians, practically everyone understands reprisal. The holy books of those three faiths are littered with examples of it. For the foreseeable future you can depend on the insurgents justifying any extreme act as a reprisal. Sadly, in the eyes of far too many, the justification is acceptable. The most horrible thing about reprisal killings is not even the barbarity, it is the fact that the person kills need not have perpatrated any crimes himself. He just needs to be avialable.

I can't get at the persons who did this (guards) so I will kill this man (poor soul in the wrong place at the wrong time), but it isn't murder, it's a reprisal for the atrocities commited against my poor brothers in the (American) prisons.

It isn't something new, it's quite old. And unless I miss my guess badly, Nick Berg is just the first in a long line of people who will loose their lives in reprisal killings.

-Colly
 
This thing has so disgusted and sickened me that I was up half the night thinking about it. It's bad enough when civilians get killed, worse when they're murdered in cold blood. But to slit a man's throat in front of a camera and then saw his head off bespeaks a level of butchery and inhumanity that's almost incomprehensible to me. And to do it in the name of religion. These people have oforeited their right to be called human.

No offense to anyone else, but I look at the other threads going on on this board, and I can't understand how people can carry on business as usual in the face of an atrocity like this. I know I can't.

If this is the kind of culture that Saddam Hussein came out of, I don't wonder at some of the techniques he used. The temptation to retaliate in kind is very strong. To someone who had his kind of power, I imagine it's irresistable.

I've been dead set against this war from the start, not only because it's the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time, but because changing regimes is not like changing socks, and our leadership really didn't know what the fuck they were doing going in there. Out of arrogance or out of ignorance they chose to ignore the enormity of what they were doing, and now we're stuck there with no way out. Things can only get worse.

War always becomes a race to the bottom, and all the high and noble talk ultimately comes down to the common grunts slitting each other's throats in the mud. For a war that started out with such supposedly lofty goals, the last two weeks have been nauseating, and it's hard to believe that anyone takes seriously the talk of democracy or even self-rule in Iraq in 2 months' time.

Meanwhile I think I'll go try and read some stories. Or something.

---d.M.
 
dr_mabeuse said:
This thing has so disgusted and sickened me that I was up half the night thinking about it. It's bad enough when civilians get killed, worse when they're murdered in cold blood. But to slit a man's throat in front of a camera and then saw his head off bespeaks a level of butchery and inhumanity that's almost incomprehensible to me. And to do it in the name of religion. These people have oforeited their right to be called human.

No offense to anyone else, but I look at the other threads going on on this board, and I can't understand how people can carry on business as usual in the face of an atrocity like this. I know I can't.

If this is the kind of culture that Saddam Hussein came out of, I don't wonder at some of the techniques he used. The temptation to retaliate in kind is very strong. To someone who had his kind of power, I imagine it's irresistable.

I've been dead set against this war from the start, not only because it's the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time, but because changing regimes is not like changing socks, and our leadership really didn't know what the fuck they were doing going in there. Out of arrogance or out of ignorance they chose to ignore the enormity of what they were doing, and now we're stuck there with no way out. Things can only get worse.

War always becomes a race to the bottom, and all the high and noble talk ultimately comes down to the common grunts slitting each other's throats in the mud. For a war that started out with such supposedly lofty goals, the last two weeks have been nauseating, and it's hard to believe that anyone takes seriously the talk of democracy or even self-rule in Iraq in 2 months' time.

Meanwhile I think I'll go try and read some stories. Or something.

---d.M.

I haven't thought of them as human since 9/11. I hesitate to use animals, since I feel that's a slight to animals who don't normally kill for no reason at all. There is a reason they keep their identites secret and it has little to do with the U.S. government hunting them down. It seems any decent person would gladly turn them in to whatever authority was nearby if they knew who they were or where they were hiding. How anyone could do some of the things AQ sanctions is beyond mortal ken. Perhaps a sociopath could understand.

-Colly

-Colly
 
dr_mabeuse said:
...

No offense to anyone else, but I look at the other threads going on on this board, and I can't understand how people can carry on business as usual in the face of an atrocity like this. I know I can't.

...

---d.M.

Doc, I agree with everything you've said, and, believe me, I have also been absolutely horrified by what happened.

However, I must just say this... the reason why I, personally, "carry on, business as usual" is because, if I don't, if I stop my normal life, if I change who I am, if I bow down and let them beat me, they have won. They will not win.

I have seen and experienced many atrocities in my time. I remember when the IRA were at the height of their activity, and I remember watching the news footage of the two off duty police officers who happened to get themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. They inadvertantly got lost and drove into the midst of an IRA funeral procession. Their car was set upon by the angry mob and they were dragged from their car, stipped and beaten, all of this was captured on film. They were then dragged away and executed. Again, there is footage of this. It was absolutely horrific. That was a crime of supposed reprisal.

There can be no excuse for crimes like this, there is no excuse. It is an act of extreme lowly cowardice.

It has affected me, I am a caring, loving human being, how can it not affect me? I have shed tears for Nick Berg. But, as I said above, I will not let it beat me. I think, here in the UK especially, we have lived with terrorism for a long time, and we have had it drummed into us to try and lead our lives as normally as possible. Terrorists are out to cause maximum destruction to the lives of the maximum number of people. We can't let them do that. But, also, we cannot forget what they have done. We will never forget.

Lou
 
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Wildcard Ky said:
I have words for this one. Go after the people that did this with the full weight and might that the United States can muster. Bring them to justice, then give them their just due.

Right and when you blow the brains out of your foe will his fellows be justified to revenge their friends death?

When will it end? When the other side has been completely annihilated? When we convert them to capitalist christianity? Who will we fight then? Who will we be able to exploit then to live our lavish and wasteful lives?
 
dr_mabeuse said:

No offense to anyone else, but I look at the other threads going on on this board, and I can't understand how people can carry on business as usual in the face of an atrocity like this. I know I can't.


To tell you the truth, I wasn't at all mortified. Maybe I have some subtle fascination with death but there are other ways to die more horrific than a decapitation by a carving knife (I have seen the video). It was obvious that they attempted to shock the people of America and around the world. I haven't been disturbed, I refuse to have such acts cause terror because once we become scarred by it, it will make it easier to kill them in return and some others who we suspect were them and were really not.
 
For what it is worth

I know much has been said. I know that we are all worried about the war, our people, and what needs to be done.

It might be good that I am not president. When our citizens were killed, dragged through the streets, and mutilated, the Iraqi citizens did not proclaim how bad it was, how ashamed the people of their country were. It was business as usual.

Now, with the military prison pictures out, we have caused some embarrassment to the Iraqi citizens.

That justifies murder. Seems close to the same degree of actions. Are the Iraqi people, government, etc., investigating the actions of the 5 cowards.

Small groups of insurgents hole up in a town. Continue to fight. I would probably melt the sand, turn it to glass. If more joined the cause, more sand can be melted.

Enough Americans have died to give them freedom. I am tired of it.

Mtn
 
Colleen..who started the thread...and the usual suspects, Dr. Mabeuse, Shereads...et al.....

It is a healthy thing...I propose...that difficult issues are discussed from all directions...by people from all walks of life who think and write their thoughts for others to share and comment on.

I have the leisure to contribute to a small weekly newspaper in the local area. In the past few weeks and months I have had the pleasure to watch Concerts and Plays and athletic contests and awards ceremonies at three different level schools from Kindergarten to Senior High.

I am not asked to contribute articles on National or International issues...indeed, I shy away from any political, ethical or moral statements. However, after 40 years in the News business, some in major market areas...in Radio, Tv and Print, I still have the urge to weigh in on various issues. I appreciate the existence of this forum for that reason.

In addition to the events mentioned above...there has been a school lockdown due to a gun threat on campus, an evacuation due to a bomb threat at a school, several automobile accidents involving high school kids and the neverending police file of minor and major incidents.

This weeks issue was put to bed yesterday...so I have a day or so to think of other things than baseball and softball and the ROTC awards banquet.

As I mused, I thought perhaps a soft statement that, 'life goes on in a small town...' might lighten the burden many feel over recent horrific events in the middle east.

It is only partly true, that there are, 'no words' for the current hot items of abuse and atrocity that lead the news. We must have words and we must seek understanding. Many contributors to this forum have offered avenues of thought, some very well done, some with great insight, some not.

While watching a History Channel program on "D Day, June 6th, 1944" a day or so ago, I had rather an awakening to a general thought about American involvement in the Middle East.

In my mind, it was fairly well entrenched that the 'Allies' of World War 2, put a 'million' men on the beaches of Normandy on that June morning.

I was wrong, it was 175,000 men, that first day and do you know what? It was the Americans, the Brits and the Canadians. And do you know what else? It was 75 percent Americans and 25 percent Brits and Canadians.

It looks like the 'coalition' in Iraq today, resembles quite closely the make up of those who freed Europe from the Nazi's over a half century ago.

Some things change...some do not. Being a student of American History, I recall that only 25 percent of the colonists supported the War of Independence from British rule.

My point, if there is one in this rather drawn out ramble, is that only a few ever seem to see the necessity of offering the ultimate sacrifice in defense of freedom. The rest are just along for the ride.

Regards to all....amicus
 
Colleen Thomas said:
I haven't thought of them as human since 9/11. I hesitate to use animals, since I feel that's a slight to animals who don't normally kill for no reason at all. There is a reason they keep their identites secret and it has little to do with the U.S. government hunting them down. It seems any decent person would gladly turn them in to whatever authority was nearby if they knew who they were or where they were hiding. How anyone could do some of the things AQ sanctions is beyond mortal ken. Perhaps a sociopath could understand.

-Colly

-Colly

I just saw the video and you are correct that it would be an insult to animals, animals kill for a reason, to survive or defend.
It is a horrible thing to watch and I pray to God that the Berg family never see it. To hear the shrill screams of these sadistic bastards is bad enough, but to see them slaughter this defenseless man....it's really hard to describe.
~A~
 
Re: For what it is worth

mtnman2003 said:
I know much has been said. I know that we are all worried about the war, our people, and what needs to be done.

It might be good that I am not president. When our citizens were killed, dragged through the streets, and mutilated, the Iraqi citizens did not proclaim how bad it was, how ashamed the people of their country were. It was business as usual.

Now, with the military prison pictures out, we have caused some embarrassment to the Iraqi citizens.

That justifies murder. Seems close to the same degree of actions. Are the Iraqi people, government, etc., investigating the actions of the 5 cowards.

Small groups of insurgents hole up in a town. Continue to fight. I would probably melt the sand, turn it to glass. If more joined the cause, more sand can be melted.

Enough Americans have died to give them freedom. I am tired of it.

Mtn


I still say get out. Let them kill one another for Allah, money, power, oil, whatever floats their little boats. Heck, Haliburton can sell them the guns & ammunition if they just have to turn a profit on this. But enough americans have died already. On that you are absolutely correct.

-Colly
 
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