NIETZSCHE: Frogs perspective.

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

All I know of Frederick Nietzsche is H.L.Mencken admired him, and both are noted for their snappy aphorisms.

Anyway, I promised to read about Nietzsche's reference to frog perspective, and I did. From what I can make of it, its one end of the distribution that goes from frogs perspective to birds eye view, and all in between. What did I miss?

Oh! And Nietzsche doesnt laugh at frogs like he laughs at perfessers.

Nietzsche isnt easy to read. To my way of thinking his writing makes as much sense as schizophrenic word salad. Taken word for word schizophrenics make sense but you run off the road if you try and make logical connections between their words. On the other hand Nietzsche's aphorisms are delightful and oughta be printed on cards and sold with chewing gum.

So I read the relevant Nietzsche essay and started thinking of Gerald Edelman, Edelman says pretty much the same as Nietzsche but with a hard science rhythm. Someone described Edelmans prose as a cliff made of polished granite. Close. In a nutshell Edelman asserts that youre born knowing pretty much all that youre ever gonna know. But he doesnt mock pretentious perfessers as Nietzsche does. And Edelman goes Nietzsche one better, there's no guarantee that all frogs see shit or the same.

 

[NaokoSmith]

All I know of Frederick Nietzsche is H.L.Mencken admired him, and both are noted for their snappy aphorisms.

Anyway, I promised to read about Nietzsche's reference to frog perspective, and I did. From what I can make of it, its one end of the distribution that goes from frogs perspective to birds eye view, and all in between. What did I miss?

Oh! And Nietzsche doesnt laugh at frogs like he laughs at perfessers.

Nietzsche isnt easy to read. To my way of thinking his writing makes as much sense as schizophrenic word salad. Taken word for word schizophrenics make sense but you run off the road if you try and make logical connections between their words. On the other hand Nietzsche's aphorisms are delightful and oughta be printed on cards and sold with chewing gum.

So I read the relevant Nietzsche essay and started thinking of Gerald Edelman, Edelman says pretty much the same as Nietzsche but with a hard science rhythm. Someone described Edelmans prose as a cliff made of polished granite. Close. In a nutshell Edelman asserts that youre born knowing pretty much all that youre ever gonna know. But he doesnt mock pretentious perfessers as Nietzsche does. And Edelman goes Nietzsche one better, there's no guarantee that all frogs see shit or the same.

Nietzsche argues that it all comes down to the perspective we have on life. The frogs (narrow perspective) on the ground have a blinkered and near-sighted view of things. The birds fly above, seeing the frogs and all their surroundings in a wider vision.

Richard Wright took this concept and adapted it. Rather in the way that black people repossessed the word 'nigger' and started to use it with pride (Foucault calls this 'reverse discourse'.)

Henry Louis Gates Jr. points to the way that white thinkers often accuse black thinkers of 'mimicking' white thought, pressuring black thinkers to be original and not acknowledge other influences on their work. Gates uses the term 'Signifyin(g)' to force home the point that black thinkers are developing concepts from white thinking, not just copying them. In the same way as street rappers signify on each other's insults, becoming more and more colourful, ridiculous and rude, black thinkers signify and parody on white thought. (Although white thinkers rarely get the joke.)

What Wright does with the frog's perspective is to turn it into what he calls 'double vision'. He says:

"The black man's is a strange situation; it is a perspective, an angle of vision held by oppressed people; it is an outlook of people looking upward from below. It is what Nietzsche once called a 'frog's perspective." (quoted in Paul Gilroy's The Black Atlantic.)

DuBois's concept of 'double consciousness' may be a better one to take race politics forward, however Wright's adoption of Nietzsche's scornful relegation of most people to the 'frog's perspective' is interesting. It seems close to feminist standpoint theory (probably best explained, along with many other feminist schools of thought, in Sandra Harding's The Science Question in Feminism).

Standpoint theory argues that you can have a better view of the politics of a situation from the perspective of the oppressed.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Nietzsche argues that it all comes down to the perspective we have on life. The frogs (narrow perspective) on the ground have a blinkered and near-sighted view of things. The birds fly above, seeing the frogs and all their surroundings in a wider vision.

Richard Wright took this concept and adapted it. Rather in the way that black people repossessed the word 'nigger' and started to use it with pride (Foucault calls this 'reverse discourse'.)

Henry Louis Gates Jr. points to the way that white thinkers often accuse black thinkers of 'mimicking' white thought, pressuring black thinkers to be original and not acknowledge other influences on their work. Gates uses the term 'Signifyin(g)' to force home the point that black thinkers are developing concepts from white thinking, not just copying them. In the same way as street rappers signify on each other's insults, becoming more and more colourful, ridiculous and rude, black thinkers signify and parody on white thought. (Although white thinkers rarely get the joke.)

What Wright does with the frog's perspective is to turn it into what he calls 'double vision'. He says:

"The black man's is a strange situation; it is a perspective, an angle of vision held by oppressed people; it is an outlook of people looking upward from below. It is what Nietzsche once called a 'frog's perspective." (quoted in Paul Gilroy's The Black Atlantic.)

DuBois's concept of 'double consciousness' may be a better one to take race politics forward, however Wright's adoption of Nietzsche's scornful relegation of most people to the 'frog's perspective' is interesting. It seems close to feminist standpoint theory (probably best explained, along with many other feminist schools of thought, in Sandra Harding's The Science Question in Feminism).

Standpoint theory argues that you can have a better view of the politics of a situation from the perspective of the oppressed.

IRL there is no black perspective for anything, blacks are now Euro-Americans. That said, there are antithetical blacks but their bag of stuff are what we call polarity responses.

 

[NaokoSmith]

IRL there is no black perspective for anything, blacks are now Euro-Americans. That said, there are antithetical blacks but their bag of stuff are what we call polarity responses.

Do you think theirs are 180 degree polarity responses? Or is it a twist on the original, what Gates calls Signifyin(g)? Are they making what looks like a polarity response to white people while they laugh up their sleeves?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Do you think theirs are 180 degree polarity responses? Or is it a twist on the original, what Gates calls Signifyin(g)? Are they making what looks like a polarity response to white people while they laugh up their sleeves?

What I believe is blacks are human (given benefit of the doubt of course) and exhibit the best & worst of the human condition, pretty much like the rest of us. I also believe that American blacks are antithetical whereas most blacks arent. I believe this because America hasnt embraced blacks, they remain America's red-haired love child. I see it with my grandchildren and their black kin. Theyre poster children for the Euro-American culture, that is, university graduates, middle-income professionals, with a few queers tossed in to distance themselves from the ghetto further. My son in laws brother wasnt invited to the wedding due to his peculiar tastes. Not my decision. But my son in law is kinda redneck Nigga with Brooks Brothers suits and cowboy boots/hat.

 

[NaokoSmith]

What I believe is blacks are human (given benefit of the doubt of course) and exhibit the best & worst of the human condition, pretty much like the rest of us. I also believe that American blacks are antithetical whereas most blacks arent. I believe this because America hasnt embraced blacks, they remain America's red-haired love child. I see it with my grandchildren and their black kin. Theyre poster children for the Euro-American culture, that is, university graduates, middle-income professionals, with a few queers tossed in to distance themselves from the ghetto further. My son in laws brother wasnt invited to the wedding due to his peculiar tastes. Not my decision. But my son in law is kinda redneck Nigga with Brooks Brothers suits and cowboy boots/hat.

Do you think antithetical might be the same as Signifyin(g)? Writing against the established orthodoxy could be doing so in a manner which plays with it creatively.

Is your view on the way in which African Americans are co-opted by limousine liberals the same as Ralph Ellison's, as expressed in his Invisible Man? It was to counter this notion, of course, that Richard Wright wrote Native Son as brutally as he did.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Do you think antithetical might be the same as Signifyin(g)? Writing against the established orthodoxy could be doing so in a manner which plays with it creatively.

Is your view on the way in which African Americans are co-opted by limousine liberals the same as Ralph Ellison's, as expressed in his Invisible Man? It was to counter this notion, of course, that Richard Wright wrote Native Son as brutally as he did.

I cant answer, for the reason that I dont read 99.99% of black writers. So I'm pretty ignorant. Chester Himes I esteem. Walter Williams I esteem. Thomas Sowell too. I have books by the black woman who collected Uncle Remus tales. And there are a few black noir writers who are excellent. Pushkin was black, and I dont read him.

But! Assuming youre correct, blacks who push back at Western Civilization are antithetical to who they are. Blacks from Africa and the Caribbean dont push back at the West. I dont fault those who do, as i do it myself. I'm Southern and 95% of us are Scottish, New England is mostly Limey Roundheads, and Scottish Cavaliers and Roundheads had a bit of a war 300 years ago. So my ass wants buttermilk when the New England Yankee starts his shit with Southerners.

 

[NaokoSmith]

I cant answer, for the reason that I dont read 99.99% of black writers. So I'm pretty ignorant. Chester Himes I esteem. Walter Williams I esteem. Thomas Sowell too. I have books by the black woman who collected Uncle Remus tales. And there are a few black noir writers who are excellent. Pushkin was black, and I dont read him.

But! Assuming youre correct, blacks who push back at Western Civilization are antithetical to who they are. Blacks from Africa and the Caribbean dont push back at the West. I dont fault those who do, as i do it myself. I'm Southern and 95% of us are Scottish, New England is mostly Limey Roundheads, and Scottish Cavaliers and Roundheads had a bit of a war 300 years ago. So my ass wants buttermilk when the New England Yankee starts his shit with Southerners.

I think you should read Native Son. You would enjoy it! It's like Chester Himes without humour. Brilliant and shocking.

Try Chinua Achebe's Things Fall Apart, too. That's a Nigerian novel pushing back at colonial Western Civilization.

Hope I can count on your support for Scotland in the Six Nations rugby then!

 

[Tio_Narratore]

I think you should read Native Son. You would enjoy it! It's like Chester Himes without humour. Brilliant and shocking.

Try Chinua Achebe's Things Fall Apart, too. That's a Nigerian novel pushing back at colonial Western Civilization.

Hope I can count on your support for Scotland in the Six Nations rugby then!

Good basic choices, Doctor.

Now, if a white writes antithetically to euro-american hegenomy, does she become black, or just co-opting the cultural identity of the oppressed so that even the oppression becomes part of the oppressors expropriation?

And I've had quite enough of the specious specieism that started this all. Frogs see infrared as well as our limited visible spectrum while birds see the same range of wavelengths as us. We human oppressors, particularly those who call themselves 'philosophers,' insist on ascribing or interpreting other species as if they were what you think they are?
And which birds? Talk about "all them (fill in your favourite imaginary race)
look the same!" Eagles and vultures see things very differently than do ostriches and emus.
Nietsche may be clever, but he's as dumb as any philosopher, and, despite all claims of modernism, still working in the logic of the concrete. Well, let me tell you, all analogies limp, and if you're more like a frog than I am, it's only because neither of us know what it is to be a frog. Brek-a-kek-kek-coax-coax. And whether the totemic operator is at work with ourself or the other, it's still only what we all think they be! and you talk of oppression!


P.S. and where do you whiteys come off co-opting my matrilineal cultural legacy? Six Nations, indeed! Where are the Oneida, the Mohawk, the Onondaga...? You've no League of the Hodenosaunee!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I think you should read Native Son. You would enjoy it! It's like Chester Himes without humour. Brilliant and shocking.

Try Chinua Achebe's Things Fall Apart, too. That's a Nigerian novel pushing back at colonial Western Civilization.

Hope I can count on your support for Scotland in the Six Nations rugby then!

Are you kidding! The last real Scot left and abandoned the place 250 years ago. Afterwards the highland knuckle-walkers came down out of the hills, put on underpants, and learned to pinch cigarette butts from urinals.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Good basic choices, Doctor.

Now, if a white writes antithetically to euro-american hegenomy, does she become black, or just co-opting the cultural identity of the oppressed so that even the oppression becomes part of the oppressors expropriation?

And I've had quite enough of the specious specieism that started this all. Frogs see infrared as well as our limited visible spectrum while birds see the same range of wavelengths as us. We human oppressors, particularly those who call themselves 'philosophers,' insist on ascribing or interpreting other species as if they were what you think they are?
And which birds? Talk about "all them (fill in your favourite imaginary race)
look the same!" Eagles and vultures see things very differently than do ostriches and emus.
Nietsche may be clever, but he's as dumb as any philosopher, and, despite all claims of modernism, still working in the logic of the concrete. Well, let me tell you, all analogies limp, and if you're more like a frog than I am, it's only because neither of us know what it is to be a frog. Brek-a-kek-kek-coax-coax. And whether the totemic operator is at work with ourself or the other, it's still only what we all think they be! and you talk of oppression!


P.S. and where do you whiteys come off co-opting my matrilineal cultural legacy? Six Nations, indeed! Where are the Oneida, the Mohawk, the Onondaga...? You've no League of the Hodenosaunee!

As an American with sundry Injun blood, let me say, go fuck yourself.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I think you should read Native Son. You would enjoy it! It's like Chester Himes without humour. Brilliant and shocking.

Try Chinua Achebe's Things Fall Apart, too. That's a Nigerian novel pushing back at colonial Western Civilization.

Hope I can count on your support for Scotland in the Six Nations rugby then!

At least you arent pimping James Baldwin or Toni Morrison or Angelou. I'll look for Wright. I tried Walter Mosley and threw him back.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

As an American with sundry Injun blood, let me say, go fuck yourself.

I don't care if your freakin' blood is sundried or not, JibJay, it's still no excuse for flippin off what you don't get.

 

[RuzieD]

Yeah... Neitzsche died crazy. He's like mad painter, only he did philosophy. His work is understood by some, has many fans, but in the end he still died crazy.

I enjoyed scatterings of Thus Spake Zarathustra though. Very fun to read.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I don't care if your freakin' blood is sundried or not, JibJay, it's still no excuse for flippin off what you don't get.

Tio? It aint like youre Linear B Form hieroglyphs.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I think you should read Native Son. You would enjoy it! It's like Chester Himes without humour. Brilliant and shocking.

Try Chinua Achebe's Things Fall Apart, too. That's a Nigerian novel pushing back at colonial Western Civilization.

Hope I can count on your support for Scotland in the Six Nations rugby then!

I got hold of Wrights book. If its shit put yourself on IGGY and save me the trouble.

 

[NaokoSmith]

I got hold of Wrights book. If its shit put yourself on IGGY and save me the trouble.

I await your critical judgement!

Originally Posted by Tio_Narratore
Good basic choices, Doctor.

Now, if a white writes antithetically to euro-american hegenomy, does she become black, or just co-opting the cultural identity of the oppressed so that even the oppression becomes part of the oppressors expropriation?

Well, a 'she' would fall into the category of the oppressed, according to standpoint theory. I'm not in favour of standpoint theory myself but I wanted to start by being gentle with JB.

As for the Six Nations, it's because it's on now. As Ishtat pointed out in the Be Nice to Me thread, we Europeans get very excited about our little competition. Ishtat has sufficiently relented from an original opinion that only rugby played in the Southern Hemisphere is worth a spit to discuss who might win the games to be played in two weeks' time.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I await your critical judgement!



Well, a 'she' would fall into the category of the oppressed, according to standpoint theory. I'm not in favour of standpoint theory myself but I wanted to start by being gentle with JB.

As for the Six Nations, it's because it's on now. As Ishtat pointed out in the Be Nice to Me thread, we Europeans get very excited about our little competition. Ishtat has sufficiently relented from an original opinion that only rugby played in the Southern Hemisphere is worth a spit to discuss who might win the games to be played in two weeks' time.

I'm a combat veteran and have 5 sisters, take your best shot

 

[NaokoSmith]

I'm a combat veteran and have 5 sisters, take your best shot

Oh sugar sugar! I will be gentle with you.
(Unlike Richard Wright, whose book is not in the least bit gentle!)

 

[NaokoSmith]

BTW, Richard Wright wrote Native Son partly as a protest against the reception of his earlier autobiographical book Black Boy. He disliked the way white women fawned over the central character in Black Boy, as if people who came from that kind of background were safe pets. In a sense, he wrote against his own formula by creating a novel about a black man who was very different to 'black boy'.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Oh sugar sugar! I will be gentle with you.
(Unlike Richard Wright, whose book is not in the least bit gentle!)

Wright's head was up his ass.

The Negro canons begin with, AND ALL THE HAPPY NIGGAZ WAS VACATIONING AT THE BEACH WHEN THE EVIL WHITE MAN DROVE OVER FROM AMERICA TO SELL CRUISES, AND DUPED THE POOR NIGGA INTO SLAVERY.

In fact the Nigga was already in chains awaiting export. In the US the poor ol Nigga lived better than most white people, the Nigga was expensive property requiring care, while whites werent. The Nigga got his ass whipped when he raped and destroyed, whites were hanged for the offenses. Ol Massa kept his Niggaz fed, clothed, sheltered, and doctored. No one did shit for poor whites. In fact all the Nigga raping was done by Irish girls (indentured servants). Its all in the colonial records.

Read William Johnsons memoir, THE BARBER OF NATCHEZ. Johnson was a black planter and banker.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

Tio? It aint like youre Linear B Form hieroglyphs.

Fer sure Jibby; linear B ain't no hieroglyph, but you wouldn't even know the differences between hieroglyphs, pictographs, and ideographs anyway. Next time you try to speak to a stone, try phonetics. You know, like your alphabet. Oh, sorry, boy, your ABCs.
Still don't see any comprehension there though...and just when I was starting to think you had half a mind to go with that half an ass...

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Fer sure Jibby; linear B ain't no hieroglyph, but you wouldn't even know the differences between hieroglyphs, pictographs, and ideographs anyway. Next time you try to speak to a stone, try phonetics. You know, like your alphabet. Oh, sorry, boy, your ABCs.
Still don't see any comprehension there though...and just when I was starting to think you had half a mind to go with that half an ass...

I only care what something is, not what you call it. A ROSE BY ANY OTHER NAME, ETC.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

I only care what something is, not what you call it. A ROSE BY ANY OTHER NAME, ETC.

Nice to see you grant your inability to know that not all writing is the same as yours. Now, take the next step, and realize that the world may not be as you see it. Then there'll only be ten steps left before your achieve nirvana.
Om. Shanti. Shanti. Shanti. Om.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Nice to see you grant your inability to know that not all writing is the same as yours. Now, take the next step, and realize that the world may not be as you see it. Then there'll only be ten steps left before your achieve nirvana.
Om. Shanti. Shanti. Shanti. Om.

TIO?

The blood of pharoahs and emperors and philosopher kings flow thru me, our Western Civilization is their handiwork. We dont compromise with peasants who fuck sheep. Killing people with different viewpoints is quicker than schmoozing them.