muscles

[Senna Jawa]

Muscles appear in pairs: a muscle and a counter-muscle. Also the police in the US is trained to press at the hand gun with both hands, in the opposite directions, one hand against another.

I'd like to suggest that we follow that same wisdom. According to this forum custom there are threads (muscles) where one is supposed to praise only. The new poems thread is an example. But then we should have a parallel counter-thread (counter-muscle), where the same poems can be viewed also critically. In my opinion it would be to a great advantage of the participants. Indeed, every time I read accolades only I feel that an excellent chance of learning something about poetry is wasted. When a poem is mentioned then at least that one person is motivated in analyzing such a poem. Together with the critic and the author that's already 3 people, which is 2 more than on average. Worse than that, when false praising is unchallenged then it causes a considerable damage since, it reinforces bad poetic practice.

I don't want to start such a counter-thread myself but I would advocate creating it at least for the new poems, with the understanding that the usual object of critique will be the poems mentioned in the new poems thread (other poems would be introduced only for auxiliary purposes, to enhance the discussion of the poems from the new poems thread).

The main goal would be the discussion of various moments and elements of the given poems, and not any final evaluation on the 1-5 or 0%-100% scale. You know, those overall evaluations are the least important. A poem doesn't have to be discussed totally. It's enough to comment on just one or two issues, or on a detail. It's even better this way! Much better.

Regards,

Senna Jawa

 

[champagne1982]

This is a noble idea. The problems with such a thread will come out of the fact that a new poster will feel attacked, especially if they brought their poems to lit purely to feel good about someone else other than family or their panties in their bureau, reading their poetry.

You would have a really tough time finding reviewers to post to such a thread, even when an unbiased, named critique is posted in the public comments directly below the poem in the archives, several people, sometimes not even the writer, will pounce and massacre the critic for being mean or rude.

In the light of that moon, I for one, will stick to the proverb: If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Unless I am asked for the critique, that is.

 

[Senna Jawa]

This is a noble idea. The problems with such a thread will come out of the fact that a new poster will feel attacked, especially if they brought their poems to lit purely to feel good about someone else other than family or their panties in their bureau, reading their poetry.

You would have a really tough time finding reviewers to post to such a thread, even when an unbiased, named critique is posted in the public comments directly below the poem in the archives, several people, sometimes not even the writer, will pounce and massacre the critic for being mean or rude.

In the light of that moon, I for one, will stick to the proverb: If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Unless I am asked for the critique, that is.

The situation is worthwhile to think more about. It seems to me that when an author is against (impassionate ) critical comments then her/his poem should not be viewed at all. The one way street is art wise not healthy for anybody.

 

[annaswirls]

Background: There are all kinds of reasons for posting a poem on Literotica. It is not our place to judge those reasons. Not everyone shares poetry to improve writing, some people need a place to share their thoughts and feelings and poetry has been a safe place for them to do so, perhaps their only safe place to do so.

On the other hand sometimes an experienced writer may put something out there just for fun, to stretch their creative muscles. Not that this writer should be beyond criticism, just not singled out.

Anyone who leaves on public comment opens themselves up for comments of any sort and should never complain about what people write on their wall when a stack of spray paint is left out, however...

Personally, I strongly feel that poems should not be posted on this thread without the poet's express permission. Many will welcome the chance. Others will not.

There are many counter-muscle threads in this forum, perhaps we can encourage more activity there.

 

[vampiredust]

It's a good idea in theory but I'm with Anna on this

 

[bogusbrig]

Those who don't mind their poems being torn apart might sign up. Put a list of names at the top of the thread of people who feel hard skinned enough to cope with having their worked scrutinized so closely. SJ talks about good poetry practice, for awhile I've been experimenting and I suppose challenging what is good or not. It would be good to have a thread where all things go and one can accept that off that thread peace shall reign.

 

[Maria2394]

Senna-- speaking of muscles...

did you get my email?

I sent you some changes on the bodybuilder poem. If you wanna work on it in your thread, I'm game



maria

 

[Liar]

Got nothing much to add.

A good idea, if we can find a way to make sure that those whose poems are being scrutinized don't take it the wrong way.

And the New Poem Review thread should really be called the New Poem Recommendation thread, which is closer to what it is.

 

[WickedEve]

.....

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

doesn't the "not for the thinskinned" thread fill the muscular niche?

 

[Maria2394]

doesn't the "not for the thinskinned" thread fill the muscular niche?

I never posted on that particular thread because the mere TITLE is intimidating.



but I have noticed, those who DO put there work in there are the ones who seem to have garnered the most success with their poetry outside of Lit. I know that is a marvelous thread, I read it often and have learned from it.

I keep telling myself I will find one that I want to put in there and then I never get around to it.

Im lazy, I reckon

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

I never posted on that particular thread because the mere TITLE is intimidating.



but I have noticed, those who DO put there work in there are the ones who seem to have garnered the most success with their poetry outside of Lit. I know that is a marvelous thread, I read it often and have learned from it.

I keep telling myself I will find one that I want to put in there and then I never get around to it.

Im lazy, I reckon

I never posted in there either, I never think my stuff is worth the bother.

You know, may be Senna's idea is better, wusses like you and I won't get to skulk in the back ground clutching our work to our heaving bosoms.

 

[EriAliSaa]

What if the thread was moderated so that those comments that are not constructive are just deleted?

 

[Maria2394]

I never posted in there either, I never think my stuff is worth the bother.

You know, may be Senna's idea is better, wusses like you and I won't get to skulk in the back ground clutching our work to our heaving bosoms.

I am not really afraid. Thats not it. Just so many educated people here and I dont write as an academic person. I put something down and read it.

I get a feel for how I think the words should go, and then work on it till they are in what I consider the right place. And I do go back and work on my poetry. I dont just "puke on the page" and expect people to love it.

I think what I am trying to say is that I respect my work more than I believe in my own intelligence. Those who have called me stupid have indeed hit on my greatest fear, that I am not really intelligent enough to share company with the gifted people here.

So, I do admit that insecurity. I try to always be honest. and actually, Julie, well, I just inhabit her body, I dont really know who the hell I am anymore...

I know I will never be an Anna or Pat or Angeline or zWicked Eve, or 1201 or Tristess, or DH or Chgampagne1982 or SaraCrew, or or or and the list goes on and on and I kKNOW I left out some marvelous people, that deosnt mean I dont repect them and read them, I just blew my short term memory years ago, lol.

and Tess you certainly do have wonderful poetry. I have enjoyed so much of your work, especially your nature poems and your observations about the sea and human nature.

I want to learn, but what I DO fear is not being able to explain WHY I did it the way I did it. I am not worried about my poetry standing up to criticism because I never was in the state of mind that it was ever good poetry and most certainly never consider my work finished.

I read Walt Whitman a good deal and he had the tendency to go back for years and edit his work. I hope i give up on my work before I let it consume me for years, but it occupies me and entertains some people and that is good enough for me

 

[bogusbrig]

I am not really afraid. Thats not it. Just so many educated people here and I dont write as an academic person. I put something down and read it.

I get a feel for how I think the words should go, and then work on it till they are in what I consider the right place. And I do go back and work on my poetry. I dont just "puke on the page" and expect people to love it.

I think what I am trying to say is that I respect my work more than I believe in my own intelligence. Those who have called me stupid have indeed hit on my greatest fear, that I am not really intelligent enough to share company with the gifted people here.

Because someone sounds they like they know what they are talking about doesn't necessarily mean they do know what they are talking about, it doesn't even mean they are intelligent, it just sounds like they are to people who haven't been educated in the jargon of a particular pursuit. I'm green when it comes to poetry and like you I'm more intuitive than informed about the art. However, I've been educated in art and worked in academia and know a whole lot of bullshit is talked about art by people who don't have a clue how to apply paint to canvas or how to model clay or whatever. Many artists couldn't put a coherent sentence together about what they were trying to do with their art but still managed through craft and intuition to make great work. Nowadays in colleges students learn all the jargon and can talk a great painting or sculpture because criticism is the new art but it doesn't make them better artists. If you have it in you to be an artist or a poet, you will become one regardless of the criticisms cast your way.

 

[Maria2394]

Thank you , BB-

you said what I was grasping for

more intuitive than informed about the art

I guess that really doesnt diminish the work, does it?



m

 

[TheRainMan]

i think Senna's idea is a terrific one.

i also think it will cause a lot of trouble. there are a lot of writers here who do not respond well to constructive criticism, as Eve said.

and most newcomers and beginners, by their very nature, feel attacked rather than assisted (even though thoughtful critique is always a help, of course -- assistance through opinion).

and then there is the matter of our community buzzard, who circles and circles and dives on any bloodied ego he sees, to feed the fire.

i have no problem reading around the whining, but it sure does clog up the boards.

. . . I know I will never be . . .

and you, maria, hush up with that stuff.

you never have given yourself anywhere enough credit.

 

[Senna Jawa]

OT -- semi-private

Senna-- speaking of muscles...

did you get my email?

Oh, I didn't know (I was afraid that possibly I have added to my serious comment too much joking). I just have tried to read my literotica.org mail but the page shows up totally blank (nothing, not even ads ). Is anybody else having this problem?

I don't use that literotica email account much. Maria, and everybody, the best is to write to me to the address

id@gmail.com
​

Just replace "id" with "sennajawa".

Maria, it seems to me that since your arrival to Literotica you have made an impressive poetic progress. In the early days, may be it was my bad luck, but I had nothing much to say about your work. It has changed (dramatically, I think ) to the better.

I sent you some changes on the bodybuilder poem. If you wanna work on it in your thread, I'm game

I hope that you have a copy. You may resend it to gmail or just open a thread yourself.

In another thread I have asked you about giving me your permission to discuss your "A of B" kenning like constructions from one or two of your poems (the point is to look at the construction and at the potential which it gives, and to worry about grading the poems themselves). I was thinking about a skaldic kenning thread.

Regards,

Senna Jawa

 

[Angeline]

<snip>
I know I will never be an Anna or Pat or Angeline or zWicked Eve, or 1201 or Tristess, or DH or Chgampagne1982 or SaraCrew, or or or and the list goes on and on and I kKNOW I left out some marvelous people, that deosnt mean I dont repect them and read them, I just blew my short term memory years ago, lol.<snip>

Maria you are a gifted poet. You have great insight and you write from the heart. Not every poem you write is wonderful, but who here (or anywhere) hasn't written clunkers? You've written poems that are so good they take my breath away (and make me jealous). But I think the point of this thread is that no one here (again, or anywhere) is SO good they don't have a lot to learn.

I think every poem can be improved. I don't have enough insight into my own poems to know (beyond a point) how to improve them. That's why critical feedback is so important imo.

Personally, I think I write a LOT of crap. My problem is that I almost never get an honest review. I get "Oh it's an Angeline poem. It's great!" I like praise as much as the next person, but what can I learn from it? I think my poetry has suffered over the years because I don't get critical reviews.

We've had various threads here over the years where "critical feedback" is supposed to happen. We even have a separate forum (the discussion circle) that is supposed to be for constructive criticism. Somehow these venues never really work out. A few (same few) people are always the only participants. Some people take the criticism personally (wrongly so, I think). Others are afraid of hurting people's feelings. Sometimes the threads bog down into contests between poets about who can give the "best" criticism. And some people simply don't know where to begin critiquing a poem.

I'd welcome another attempt to try this out (with the proviso that no one participate--reviewer or reviewee--unless they want to), but I have a healthy skepticism about how sucessful it will be.

PS I agree with you about Tess.

 

[Maria2394]

I wish I believed in my ability like you guys do!! You are all such wonderful teachers.

no rulers, no rubber bands, lol. just kindness and patience. I am blessed, in fact, we all are.



thank you


m

 

[Tzara]

I like SJ's idea in principle. I don't think it will work.

As others have pointed out, there are a number of threads already set up for people to seek out critique. By and large, poems get posted there and generate one or two politely critical comments on the order of "I really liked this, but I didn't quite understand this point." I know that in my own writing the best comments I have ever received had a kind of "this sucks" bluntness about them. That, though, is hard to do on the commentator's part (unless that person is angry and intends to upset the recipient) and hard to receive by the author ('cuz if we really knew it was stupid when we wrote it, well, we wouldn't have). I, for one, am loath to comment that way, which may make me a more pleasant conversationalist, but a lousy critic.

There's also the problem that, as proposed here by SJ, there is no control in place to insure that the person being critiqued welcomes that analysis. Some may argue that posting a poem in a public forum--especially with the comment thingie turned on--is essentially signing off on whatever comment anyone wishes to make. And I would agree with that. Except... that we all know most people turn the comments on to have people stroke them--tell them that their poem is good, or hot, or deeply meaningful. I actually don't have a problem with that, but it is hard to tell who wants a serious opinion and who doesn't. I have no desire to offend someone who doesn't want my real opinion.

Finally there is the time problem. Many of you know much more about the techniques of poetry and can perhaps comment meaningfully on a poem without spending a lot of time on it. I, to the extent that I can comment meaningfully at all, which is of course questionable, can't do it without a lot of work. Read, read, read, think, think, think, and maybe come up with some semi-coherent thought.

It takes a lot of time.

So that is a problem, since I have other things I am doing with my life like, ahem, trying to write my own stuff.

One suggestion, though. Perhaps to deal with the "I don't want to say anything too bad about this poem because I like this person and don't want to hurt their feelings" problem. Blind commentary. Set up a thread with a designated poster for each poem who accepts commentary via PM and posts it anonymously (that is, without attribution to whose comment it is). Yes, you can probably still figure out whose comment it was, if you want to analyze the comment style, but a little more distanced than what we normally have.

I don't know. It's a problem and I'm a dunce and thinking about this is making me tired. Wake me when we've made a decision.

 

[Maria2394]

Senna,

I did save a copy of the mail I sent you and have since resent it to you at your gmail address.
Oh gosh, why does this make me so nervous? !!

 

[champagne1982]

Oh, I didn't know (I was afraid that possibly I have added to my serious comment too much joking). I just have tried to read my literotica.org mail but the page shows up totally blank (nothing, not even ads ). Is anybody else having this problem? <snip> Regards,

Senna Jawa

Hi Senna, Literotica and the Big Mailbox server parted ways about 3 or 4 months ago. I went to check it and found the notice it was shutting down. I had seen some notices on the Lit index and home pages though. I think you were on one of your "away from Literotica" stages then.

Anyway, I'm sorry you lost your mail account. I hope there wasn't anything important kept there.

 

[Cub4ucme]

.

I'd like to suggest that we follow that same wisdom. According to this forum custom there are threads (muscles) where one is supposed to praise only. The new poems thread is an example. But then we should have a parallel counter-thread (counter-muscle), where the same poems can be viewed also critically. In my opinion it would be to a great advantage of the participants. Indeed, every time I read accolades only I feel that an excellent chance of learning something about poetry is wasted. Regards,

Senna Jawa

You certainly are entertaining at the very least.

Your podium is one in which you preach such things as you have above but, when the critic employs his opinion you are apt to say he/she is full of shit, and then go off on some tangient, that gets more humorous with every post.


I don't see the: Thanks for taking the time to read and express your opinions of my poem, coming from you.

It's ironic that you of all posters would suggest such a forum.

Then again, it might just be another scheme for you to mantle your ego which apparently needs constant reinforcement.

I don't get it, and I don't get you.

Both of which are fine with me.

best,
andy

 

[Maria2394]

I like SJ's idea in principle. I don't think it will work.

As others have pointed out, there are a number of threads already set up for people to seek out critique. By and large, poems get posted there and generate one or two politely critical comments on the order of "I really liked this, but I didn't quite understand this point." I know that in my own writing the best comments I have ever received had a kind of "this sucks" bluntness about them. That, though, is hard to do on the commentator's part (unless that person is angry and intends to upset the recipient) and hard to receive by the author ('cuz if we really knew it was stupid when we wrote it, well, we wouldn't have). I, for one, am loath to comment that way, which may make me a more pleasant conversationalist, but a lousy critic.

There's also the problem that, as proposed here by SJ, there is no control in place to insure that the person being critiqued welcomes that analysis. Some may argue that posting a poem in a public forum--especially with the comment thingie turned on--is essentially signing off on whatever comment anyone wishes to make. And I would agree with that. Except... that we all know most people turn the comments on to have people stroke them--tell them that their poem is good, or hot, or deeply meaningful. I actually don't have a problem with that, but it is hard to tell who wants a serious opinion and who doesn't. I have no desire to offend someone who doesn't want my real opinion.

Finally there is the time problem. Many of you know much more about the techniques of poetry and can perhaps comment meaningfully on a poem without spending a lot of time on it. I, to the extent that I can comment meaningfully at all, which is of course questionable, can't do it without a lot of work. Read, read, read, think, think, think, and maybe come up with some semi-coherent thought.

It takes a lot of time.

So that is a problem, since I have other things I am doing with my life like, ahem, trying to write my own stuff.

One suggestion, though. Perhaps to deal with the "I don't want to say anything too bad about this poem because I like this person and don't want to hurt their feelings" problem. Blind commentary. Set up a thread with a designated poster for each poem who accepts commentary via PM and posts it anonymously (that is, without attribution to whose comment it is). Yes, you can probably still figure out whose comment it was, if you want to analyze the comment style, but a little more distanced than what we normally have.

I don't know. It's a problem and I'm a dunce and thinking about this is making me tired. Wake me when we've made a decision.

T- thats a good idea. I am willing to post apoem to be "ripped". Umm, Senna, did you wanna do that here?

Oh, and as for the LIt mail, I had an account once upon a time, but it was always so loaded with spam, I gave it up after barely a month