Multiculturalism will be the death of us all

[RobDownSouth]

Yes. I'm not siding with you because wiping out a culture isn't genocide any more than wiping out cannibalism in the Philippines, and Borneo, or Communisn in Eastern Europe was genocide. That may be the popular definition today but I predate that phony definition. Your buddy Carter thought so too when he stood up against Apartheid.

Okay. You support genocide. So noted.

 

[JustSkye]

For the record, the below link is the International, legal, definition of genocide. Doesn't quite fit the popularist model.

Genocide

Ishmael

The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.
Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and
Punishment of Genocide (For full text click here)

"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

(d) Attempt to commit genocide;

(e) Complicity in genocide. "



It doesn't fit??

 

[Ishmael]

It doesn't fit??

Find the word "cultural" in there.

Ishmael

 

[Gringao]

It doesn't fit??

Not having read the entire thread, just the kick-off post, I'd say that Ish's prescription doesn't fit the definition for a number of reasons.

 

[JustSkye]

Find the word "cultural" in there.

Ishmael

It's a great way to get around the word race or nationality.



2: denoting or deriving from or distinctive of the ways of living built up by a group of people; "influenced by ethnic and cultural ties"



The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization.

The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.


How does one 'get rid of' these things from a culture without killing a class or race of people, Ish?

 

[Gringao]

How does one 'get rid of' these things from a culture without killing a class or race of people, Ish?

Sell them Coca-Cola, Madonna, Levi's, NASCAR, Spielberg movies, etc. You remove the terrible parts of the culture by replacing them with something better.

 

[Lavared]

Come back and complain once you've shed blood outdoors rather than Twinkie® bits all over your keyboard.

Hey now! Don't disparage Twinkies. They're one of the seven food groups:

Steak
Potatoes (fried, baked or chips)
butter
ketchup
alcoholic beverages
vitamins
Twinkies, Ho-Hos & Malted Milk Balls

(You might think this is a silly tangent off the stated thread discussion but you'd be wrong because this is the culture of my people.)

 

[JustSkye]

Sell them Coca-Cola, Madonna, Levi's, NASCAR, Spielberg movies, etc. You remove the terrible parts of the culture by replacing them with something better.

But they still have their core beliefs and faiths. Some things many don't like about them.


What is your idea of 'something better'?

 

[RoryN]

Hey now! Don't disparage Twinkies. They're one of the seven food groups...

There was a huge mall complex across the street from where I used to work. Behind it was a very large, abandoned factory, locked tight. This crumbling building was the former home of the Twinkie®. In fact, it might have been the birthplace.

It's since been torn down, but it lives on in an episode of Family Guy.

 

[Gringao]

But they still have their core beliefs and faiths. Some things many don't like about them.

What is your idea of 'something better'?

Maybe they have them, maybe they don't. The music and movies are a particularly mutating force.

Oh, I dunno...maybe not seeing non-Islamic people as the descendents of monkeys and pigs for a start, supplanting the inculcated litany of hatred with something resembling tolerance.

 

[Holy Devil]

Besides, the fool doesn't have a clue as to what a culture is. Quaint little resteraunts where he can go and pretend he's oh so sensitive. Eat with chop sticks maybe. He sees the veneer and ignores the structure.

Ishmael

You should live alone on an island with animals.

 

[Ishmael]

It's a great way to get around the word race or nationality.



2: denoting or deriving from or distinctive of the ways of living built up by a group of people; "influenced by ethnic and cultural ties"



The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization.

The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.


How does one 'get rid of' these things from a culture without killing a class or race of people, Ish?

Well, the Burgundian culture is long dead but the Burgundians weren't wiped out. Same with the Franks and the Celts. How about the Romans? Cultures come and go all the time and good riddance to the worst part of some of them.

If you think that all cutures are of some moral or ethical equivalence your education has failed you.

Ishmael

 

[Lavared]

This crumbling building was the former home of the Twinkie®. In fact, it might have been the birthplace.
It's since been torn down, but it lives on in an episode of Family Guy.

I can't believe they didn't make it into a National monument like the first McDonalds and the first Krispy Kreme: a shrine to the culture that pulls us together across boundaries of gender, race, creed and political persuasion. The culture of junk food, saturday morning cartoons and bad clothing choices of the 70s and 80s defines us more than the constitution or our wars. It is who we are and what we're made of (literally).

 

[JustSkye]

Maybe they have them, maybe they don't. The music and movies are a particularly mutating force.

Oh, I dunno...maybe not seeing non-Islamic people as the descendents of monkeys and pigs for a start, supplanting the inculcated litany of hatred with something resembling tolerance.

But why should another culture have to change the things they do or partake or believe in to suit another's needs? Because others think it heathenish, wrong, barbaric, uncouth? I'm sure many think that very same way about this country.
Why is it that when someone is disliking the way another behaves or lives they wish to change them to what they deem ideal? Who is to say who is good enough?
In many aspects this country our country ir brutish, overbearing, and extremely racist. Oh, but we're just wishing to change a few things about them that we just don't feel is right, right? Some things to 'better' them. Make them what we as a society deem right or ideal or good enough.
A culture is much more than clothing, movies, music, or the things someone reads or participates in.

 

[JustSkye]

Well, the Burgundian culture is long dead but the Burgundians weren't wiped out. Same with the Franks and the Celts. How about the Romans? Cultures come and go all the time and good riddance to the worst part of some of them.

If you think that all cutures are of some moral or ethical equivalence your education has failed you.

Ishmael

No, I don't think everyone is equal, but there are many reasons they are not.

 

[Pookie]

It's rather "twilight zone-esque" to see one of this board's most vocal libertarians calling for the extermination of other cultures.

I thought one of the central premises of libertarianism was that people "should be free to do whatever they wish with their person or property, as long as they do not infringe on the same liberty of others."

I can't decide if predicting that multiculturalism will be the death of us all is hysterical, pathetic or both at the same time.

Well stated.

 

[Gringao]

But why should another culture have to change the things they do or partake or believe in to suit another's needs? Because others think it heathenish, wrong, barbaric, uncouth? I'm sure many think that very same way about this country.
Why is it that when someone is disliking the way another behaves or lives they wish to change them to what they deem ideal? Who is to say who is good enough?
In many aspects this country our country ir brutush, overbearing, and extremely racist. Oh, but we're just wishing to change a few things about them that we just don't feel is right, right? Some things to 'better' them. Make them what we as a society deem right or ideal or good enough.
A culture is much more than clothing, movies, music, or the things someone reads or participates in.

I agree completely with your last sentence, but it's a good way to get the underlying mores, myths and assumptions changed.

As for the rest, it becomes our business when the culture we wish to change has done so in an aggressive manner. It then becomes a matter of either us changing or them changing.

 

[Gringao]

Well stated.

I think it reads better as a critique of modern libertarian thought than Ish's stand.

 

[Drinking Cap]

Speaking of the Blue Jays, why are they all white? I watched the game today and saw 1 Latino and 1 African American. Very unusual in MLB.

That's true. We had an article in the paper last year about the "White Jays" and what happened in the off-season(dealing Orlando Huson and Miguel Batista for Troy Glaus) and signing a bunch of white guys only furthered the condition.

The only reason I can come up with? We're used to hockey teams.

 

[unregistered]

 

[Peregrinator]

When expanded to the 'cultural' there is some merit.

Now explain to me how it was bad to destroy the Nazi culture, or the Aztec, or many of the other cultures over the years that were either destroyed or modified so as to make them more compatible with a civilized world? Even the Soviet Union was a 'culture' that is no more.

Further, is it cultural genocide to eliminate, or cause to be eliminated, one particular aspect of that culture. It's clear that the culture being operated on is no longer the culture it once was. Given that fact, was 'genocide' commited in forcing the alteration?

Ishmael

I'll leave your second question to a lawyer somewhere. I have no interest in trying to apply a term with several different definitions to a hypothetical. I get bogged down fast with such questions.

As to the first, if you use a definition of "culture" such that the Nazis fit, I guess that's an example of when it might be a good idea to wipe out a culture. Dunno enough about the Aztecs, but in thinking about your question, I realized that's what makes me uncomfortable: Who gets to point out certain cultures and say, "That one has to go?" The guy with the biggest army or most money?

 

[Solid Muldoon]

It won't be any different when we're all beige. The fight has always been and will always be between the Smart and the Ruthless.

 

[Ishmael]

I'll leave your second question to a lawyer somewhere. I have no interest in trying to apply a term with several different definitions to a hypothetical. I get bogged down fast with such questions.

As to the first, if you use a definition of "culture" such that the Nazis fit, I guess that's an example of when it might be a good idea to wipe out a culture. Dunno enough about the Aztecs, but in thinking about your question, I realized that's what makes me uncomfortable: Who gets to point out certain cultures and say, "That one has to go?" The guy with the biggest army or most money?

In most cases Armies are required. In some cases they aren't even used. (Soviet Union) Who gets to decide? Whoever wants to change another culture or whoever wants to defend their own.

The 'Bushido' culture of Japan that led to WWII is pretty much stripped from the Japanese culture set. But the Japanese live on. Was it a good thing to eliminate that aspect of their culture? I'd argue that it was. The Aztec were a blood thirsty lot.that specialized in human sacrifice and war.

I am quite certain that the proponents of radical Islam consider their culture to be superior to ours. One of the reasons for their dedication to the destruction of our culture. It's certain that one of us has to change. I've decided that it's them that should change and not us. It appears that there are many of like mind with regard to the radicals.

Do I want millions of unassimilated latin Americans in the US? Not at all. The cultures, for the most part, south of the border cleave to the culture of the Patrone system. It's one of those things that makes their governments what they are and the reason they swing wildly between Military dictatorships, Socialist dictators, and back again.

There are many aspects of almost any culture that one can find something admirable to point to. The problem today is that far too many people fixate on the admirable qualities and ignore or overlook those qualities that aren't quite so admirable. Time and time again we've ignored those less desireable qualities hoping upon hope that they'll either go away, or that "they'll change." Sometimes it actually works. As often as not, it doesn't and we find ourselves in a war of greater or lessor size.

Hell, we battle amongst ourselves to change our own culture daily. And our culture has changed. Some changes for the better and some for the worse depending on your point of view. But we generally fight our culture wars in a more civilized marre in the courtrooms and such. Other cultures take a more direct, and bloody, approach.

Ishmael

 

[Actually_]

*grabs a gun*

Okay, all you old, uneducated Conservative hicks. Line up against the wall. We need to modify your culture a bit to make you fit in better with civilized society.

Also, you've now lost your internet privileges.

Actually, this is a little sexy, baby.