Mrs. Doubtfire -- Nov. 16, 2001

[Mickie]

It's Friday! Time for another story!

This week it's The Sandman's Mrs. Doubtfire, which can be found in the Erotic Couplings category. The link ...

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=24455


So, heeeeere's The Sandman!

 

[Guest]

Mrs. Doubtfire

I appreciate the opportunity to have one of my stories chosen for review and discussion.

The whole purpose behind Mrs. Doubtfire was to take an unbelievable situation, and through the characters, try and make it believable.

Who amongst us at some point haven't entertained the fantasy or idea of pulling one off over someone. It was on this premise that I decided to write this story, with that theme in mind. I also wanted to keep it light, entertaining, and thus hopefully sprinkled enough humor into the story to further enhance the characters.

At the same time of course, I wanted the story to be erotic and exciting, something that would reach a broad-base of readers with varying taste's and preferences, yet not be totally focused on any one particular aspect.

Obviously, like any writer I enjoy getting my ego stroked when its warranted. But I am anxious to hear the comments and review of Mrs. Doubtfire as my ongoing and continued improvement towards writing even better stories for fun and entertainment in the future.

Hopefully you will enjoy this story. That afterall was my original intent. To have fun.....be erotic, and perhaps even laugh a little.

I remain.........

 

[Mickie]

Well, Sandman, I'll start out here. I found the story to be both fun, entertaining and arousing. The only thing that really got in the way of that was some of the wording you used. You write like you talk, right? That's good in dialogue, but in the rest you need to get more correct so the reader isn't chuckling at that instead of the story. IE -- should of done something else. -- That should be -- should have done something esle. -- Simple problem and easy to fix.

The rest of the style is wordy, and could use a good read through to cut down some of the awkward sentence structure. Each sentence should make complete sense. I could get the jist of them from reading the sentences around them, but some were just plain awkward and confusing.

However, your point of trying to make an unbelievable situation realistic is the main thrust of your own post, so I'll address that. First, I think you managed to keep it pretty well under control. The only thing I actually would question is when the girls got together and his sister talked. You did try to cover that, but it's a difficult one to dismiss. However, it was good enough for me to overlook any disbelief I might have had.

I like the twisty plotline, with the added complication of the husband's appearance. Is there a part two in this?

So, any other thoughts about believability? Is there a way that Sandman could have made this even more plausible?

Mickie

 

[ShellyK]

I have read all of Thesandman's stories. I have to say that while his earlier writings may not conform to an editor's trained eye, his style, imagination, creative thoughts, attention to detail, humor, surpass many writers on Literotica (and other sites as well). Thesandman is honest, appreciates feedback and generally gives the reader what they want. He builds his characters and storylines paying great attention to detail in all of his scenarios. Mrs. Doubtfire is a good example of this. This writer needs to be encouraged, given constructive feedback, and generally "stroked" so as not to discourage his efforts. His later writings have, indeed, improved greatly overall. I want to see more!

 

[mudlnthru]

I enjoyed the Doubtfire play a great deal. The action and the story line were indeed arousing. Good character development and excellent imagination.

Two items would improve the story a lot. One is to drop the "quote" marks. No need for them. As Mickie says, write more like you talk. I'd hate to be caught raising my fingers in double quotes each time I "said" a word. It would keep them from more useful places.

The other would be to have given Ryan more practice at being a woman. He should have gone all the way with his sister's clothes in the past, perhaps even experimented recently as long as her stuff was in the next room. Maybe not to the point of having it be a fetish, but enough to allow him to act feminine without ever having been seen in public.

Otherwise, I enjoyed the read. Good Story!

 

[REDWAVE]

Totally booge

Damn, you're a wordy motherfucker, Sandman dude. If I'd been jerking off to this story (which I wasn't), my arm would have fallen off before I got to the end!


This story is reasonably well-written (at least as far as the basics and mechanics are concerned), well-structured, and does depict a somewhat unusual and creative sexual situation. It also portrays a very popular male fantasy-- to watch two women making love, and even join in.


But ultimately, it is empty. I suppose my fundamental problem with Thesandman's writings, and in particular this one, is that he is, in every sense of the word, a bourgeois writer. It isn't just a matter that the characters are all affluent, suffering none of the financial distress that's so common, especially now-- although that's part of it. The worldview underlying the story is thoroughly bourgeois, conventional, and respectable-- even though it's a sex story. The characters are all sterile and empty (like bourgeois society generally), with nothing of significance to distinguish and differentiate them. Even the one touch of going outside the mainstream of bourgeois respectability-- when the narrator sucks the other guy's cock-- is carefully kept restrained within the bounds of bourgeois conventionality by his remark that he only did it out of fear of being beaten up, and even then it was a tough choice. (Believe me, honey, suckin' a cock is muuuch better than gettin' beat up.)


BTW, Thesandman, is your logo a representation of the angel MORONI?

 

[Jocund Day]

Cons:

Overall
Four "parts," 29 pages of 12-point type, 13,017 words. I quote Winston Churchill at a cabinet meeting during WWII: "[t]his paper, by its very length, defends itself against the risk of being read."

Paragraph 1 [as far as I got]
Like a lot [an English professor once told my class that there were two things one needed to remember about the phrase "a lot." 1.) it's always two words, never one, and, 2.) don't use it.] of people, I'd seen the movie, ["I'd seen the movie" is not a parenthetical phrase. Lose the first comma.] far-fetched as it was. The idea that a man could impersonate a woman, and then try and fool his own wife and expect to actually get away with it was just a little bit much. [I saw the movie and the suspension of disbelief was near total, and I'm a cynic. Judge early and out loud and you'll alienate the vast majority of your readers, particularly when the work your judging is a wildly popular movie. Judge subtly and over time and your reader will come to think she's the one doing the judging.] But then again, it was only a movie after all, and meant for entertainment, not reality. ["[O]nly a movie"! Tell that to the French...or the Swedes...or to anyone who believes, as I do, that the only way to approach a larger reality is through art. "Art is the lie that tells the truth." (Picasso)] Or so I thought anyway. [Hackneyed cliché.]

Pros:

The spelling in paragraph 1 is perfect.

I'm sure the story would have redeemed itself had I had the strength to continue on to the actual parts about sex. Cut it down to 2500 words and it will no doubt soar.

 

[Mickie]

The language style -- terminally destructive to the work? Or is this an example of character? (with a bit of editing, of course, but the style of prose, using words like 'a lot' or using 'of' instead of 'have'). Sort of a dialect, in a way. It really does give the character a little definition without blatantly saying that the main character is provincial. I think it stands out here as distracting mainly because the character seems to be a professional kind of person in business, perhaps a writer. If you're going to use this kind of dialect, then perhaps it might be better to be more consistent in the general accepted norm of a person who speaks this way. (there I go generalizing again, but it helps when trying to get a concept across.)


Length of the story -- I would rather read something longer. I dislike really short stories (just a personal thing). While I do agree it could have been pruned of some exposition in the beginning, I think it's long enough to tell the story, and not too long.

Mickie

 

[ShellyK]

Yeah, from a strickly purist point of view, I agree with you Mickie. On the other hand, if Sandman were a professional writer, having honed his skills over the years, we would all probably be really critical of his style. The fact is, that he is not a pro, but rather, a man of great passion and imagination....at least that is my take on him. Doubleday will probably never publish any of his work. But I suspect he has a more than average following in Literotica. His latest stories are as good as anything I have read. Keep it up Sandman!

 

[KillerMuffin]

Shelley, um, that's the purpose of this particular board. To criticize. And, well, Thesandman asked for it as well. He had to sign up for it and wait his turn to get criticized. These aren't random stories we're doing here. The Sandman is doing this so that he can improve is writing and so are the rest of us. You're doing a great job is wonderful to hear, but actually doesn't do anything for the author. What was so great about the story? Why did you like it so much? That would help.

Anyway.

If I could, Sandman, I would bash you over the head with Strunk and White repeatedly. Rule Number 1, and it's the most important, cut out all unnecessary words. In fact. However. Of course. You've got a lot of them. More than a lot of them. The one that stands out in my mind the most is "I quickly arrived in the lobby a short time later," Your prose is full of them.

Another thing that was vastly more irritating than the misused quotation marks was the run-on sentences. There were an awful lot of those as well.

I've tried to read this story two other times already, but never got very far. This is one of those severe cases of "the words got in the way." Generally it's bad spelling and bad grammar. Aside from the run-on thing, your grammar is pretty good. There were just too many words. You have a lot of redundancies.

I can't actually give much more on this story, because I never actually managed to drag myself past the first several paragraphs. The impression I came away with in this was the phrase "over-intellectualization." I'm not sure what frame of mood you were in when you were writing, but it wasn't comfortable to read because I didn't see any real people in there, not even the narrator. Everyone was cardboard.

You have true potential. I can see it in there. Yes, I think with some work Doubleday might actually publish you. You have a good plot, a good feel for pacing and setting. You just don't have that feel for the language yet. I'd say that you're a cut above the Lit herd, but I wouldn't settle for that.

On the question of story length... My English teacher put it best, short enough to be interesting but long enough to cover the subject. I prefer that the length of the segment I read not be more than two Lit pages. If it is, I like it broken into chapters because I don't want to read a novel on my computer in one sitting and it's easier to come back to a new chapter than to fish around in one long story.

 

[Mickie]

Just re-read some of the posts here and Redwave's stuck it's tongue out at me.

Characters that have little to differentiate themselves from the people we see on soap operas. Is this essential to tell a good story? Where do these kinds of character have their place? Would it have helped the story to give one or more of the characters money problems or something to bring them out of the 'bourgeois' mold?

Would it have changed the story all that much if he'd sucked dick before? Or even felt the same kind of acceptance he felt when he went down on her? I agree with Redwave about that. Dancing around the issue of liking cock just makes the reader uncomfortable with it.

So that brings up something else, I think. If we introduce something a little out of the ordinary, that might or might not turn off the average reader, do we really have to invent circumstances so it's acceptable to everyone?

Mickie

 

[Guest]

If I may.......

Perhaps I didn't do a very good job of making it clear, but the main character's attempt was to get close to Donna dressed as a woman. Not to get close to Steve dressed as one.

Finding himself in a very awkward situation, and then having to deal with the issue of emotionally facing the sucking another man's cock was the whole point.

That was apart of his character, and I felt I had defined that aspect of him fairly well as the story developed.

And what's wrong with being in the middle class? I don't believe I had intimated this character was an upper socialite, would it have made a difference?

And lest anyone lose sight, this was supposed to be a highly improbable, but entertaining story. Obviously some of you didn't find it as such. But many others have.

I still remain..........

 

[REDWAVE]

To booge or not to booge

Oooh, Mickie, I'd be happy to stick my tongue out at you any time. In fact, there are other things I can do with my tongue, too . . . quite skillfully, I've been told.


But, all seriousness aside, there's nothing inherently wrong with being in the middle class. I'm living a comfortable middle-class existence right now myself (although I haven't always, certainly-- at times I've been quite poor). What I object to, because of my own particular ideology and world-view, is a bourgeois outlook on the world-- which Thesandman obviously has. And I'm sure he's not going to change his ideology, any more than I'm going to change mine. And Thesandman is a good writer, and certainly popular with Literotica readers. But I can tell from reading him that our worldviews are diametrically opposed. My stories are all meant to be deeply subversive stories, whether they actually achieve that goal or not. Thesandman's stories, on the other hand, what I've read of them, offer no challenge whatsoever to the prevailing orthodoxy, and actually at least tacitly support it.

 

[mudlnthru]

I finally got to read a few of the posts since my last. In this case, perhaps my comments were hasty, but please forgive. I'm still learning. (Novice virgin rare poster me.)

As I think back to the story, which I did read loyally, a newly coined phrase leaps to mind.
"It doesn't take nearly as long to get some as it does to write about getting some."

In this case, I agree with KillerMuffin. The story is just a bit too long. The first 10 pages would have sufficed. The rest turned it into a tome. If I might borrow the Strunk and White please?

 

[Mickie]

You don't have to borrow a copy, Mudlnthru. It's got an online web page. Here -- http://www.bartleby.com/141/

The comments I was making were directed more at a general norm that specifically on this story, Sandman. Almost every story I read that has a man suck cock has the man agonizing over it, doing it only because he has no choice, or has some other form to make it acceptable to the average "I'm NOT gay" male. Your characterization isn't wrong , it's just the average kind of characterization.

In fact, there really is not a perfectly correct way to write fiction. We break a lot of rules. The trick in writing well and still writing fiction is to understand the rules first, and THEN break them. Remember, the popular vote is different from the critic's vote. Because we, here, go on about wordy and grammar and all kinds of problem areas, it does not mean that the story, itself is bad. It only means these are things you can work on with the re-write of this one, or in the next one.

KM said you might even have the potential to be published (someday). I thought that was a huge compliment coming from her. Just remember, all of these kinds of comments are usually about faults. How else are we supposed to improve our work unless someone gives us another angle to look at?

I prefer stories with some internal drama, and, while Doubtfire approaches that kind of drama, it doesn't follow through with it. It's still just a fluffy cute piece of work. Nothing wrong with it, and I had fun reading it, but it isn't my favorite kind of writing.

The consensus here seems to be that the sentence structure (the wordiness) got in the way of reading it. Most people also feel that it was too long. I think the extra words made it ramble a little, so that the length of it grew from that. If every scene was more focused and concise in sentence structure, that may have alleviated the problem of length.

Redwave -- Elucidate please!

Mickie

 

[norma jeanne]

I very much enjoyed Mrs. Doubtfire. I felt it had enough character development for this type of story. I have to disagree that the story would have been better had the main character practiced dressing like a woman. That would have ruined the story. The whole point was that he was doing this wild thing, spur of the moment, to get close to this woman. As far as sucking the husband's cock, his reaction was near perfect. The only difference being, that many straight males would rather get beaten up. It's their macho thing. It's stupid, but that's still the way it is. I do agree that the story was wordy, but that did not stop me from enjoying it. Two lit pages is long enough for a short story.
I think the criticism here has been much too harsh, in many respects. Remember, this story was not written as the Great American Novel. This story was light, written for pure entertainment. In my opinion, it accomplished that.

 

[Cassiel]

Just a few thoughts that spring to mind:

I didn't find this story to be over-long; it seemed, to me, about right given its plot and the amount of emotional/sexual/psychological/actual "ground" the lead character covered from beginning to end. I did feel that, because of its essentially episodic plot, its narrative dynamic could have being tighter sprung by paying more attention to individual episodes/acts and less to the exposition around them - get in, punch, get out, move on - this might mean cutting text but I feel it would make for a faster, more muscular and more energetic read.

Come the end, though, I didn't feel sorry or that I wanted to read any more - which may be an expression of only a certain "laissez-care", so-so enjoyment of the writing or an expression of what is, I feel, a competantly handled, satisfying ending.

Ultimately, I feel that this story's greatest success is its central plot idea. It's different, challenging, away from the norm and thought provoking- all of which is highly laudable. After all - the word count can be shortened, sentences can be tightened - but original thinking should be prized above rubies.

 

[Guest]

And they say size doesn't matter........

But I guess...it all depends on the woman you're asking that question to doesn't it?

I was intrigued with KM's comments regarding length. Of course what guy wouldn't be?

Out of curiosity then, I went back to do a very unscientific study.

I have currently posted fifty stories on Literotica. Of those, thirty three are in the 1-3 Literotica page length. Seventeen stories are from four all the way up to nine pages. (Mrs. Steel).

Throwing out the low and High Scores,
Halloween (Non Erotic) 3.71 (1-3) And Mrs. Steel 4.75 (9) pages, here's what I came up with:

On Thirty Two stories, 1-3 pages in length, my ave score is
4.38

On Sixteen stories, 4-plus pages in length, my ave score is
4.51

I personally have found that the longer stories seem to be voted a little higher for what I call the enjoyment factor.

As mentioned, right now Mrs. Steel is currently sitting in the 24th
most read position, with 73,871 readers, 1,067 votes, and an average of 4.75.

So I'm not sure that shorter is necessarily better.

I wholeheartedly agree with everyone regarding Thesandman's wordiness. I tend to do that, and appreciate the helpful hints and suggestions I've recieved by everyone who has taken the time to comment and post their remarks. Believe me, it's been very insightful and helpful.

Like anyone, I hope to improve. But my primary focus and purpose since I first started writing here this past March, was simply to have fun, and hopefully excite and entertain the reader.

I believe I can certainly do a much better job of that than I have.

I've maintained since I began, I have never considered myself a writer. I do feel like I can tell a fairly decent story. So I consider myself more of a Story Teller than a writer.

A good Editor, makes a Story Teller a writer. They are the one's who deserve a great deal of credit for all the hard work and observations that they make. I applaud those who have the ability and expertise to do a reasonably good job editing any article or story.

Again, I've enjoyed writing and posting my stories here. If the interest continues, I will continue to tell my stories.

And with the help and association of some very considerate people and friends I have met here, I might one day even consider myself a writer.

Until then......

I will remain at least

 

[KillerMuffin]

Just for the Sandman, a slight makeover. Not adding words beyond a conjuction to make things make sense.

"Like a lot of people, I'd seen the movie. The idea that a man could impersonate a woman, then try to fool his own wife and expect to actually get away with it was just a bit much. Then again, it was only a movie; meant for entertainment, not reality. Or so I thought.

I had moved into a new Condo four months previous. Though single and currently unemployed, I managed to make a living as a free-lance writer of sorts. I had a sizeable inheritance to draw from if and when it was necessary, but that wouldn't support me for long all by itself. The Condo was a two Condo per floor type of architecture. I lived on the fourth floor of an eight-floor building. I had met my down-thehall neighbors, Donna and Steve, the same day that I moved in since we shared an elevator.

Almost immediately I was attracted to Donna. She wasn't drop-dead gorgeous by any means, but there was something about her that caught my eye and captured my heart. " (The rest of this particular paragraph wasn't a complete sentence, so I chopped it.)

The original:

Like a lot of people, I'd seen the movie, far-fetched as it was. The idea that a man could impersonate a woman, and then try and fool his own wife and expect to actually get away with it was just a little bit much. But then again, it was only a movie after all, and meant for entertainment, not reality. Or so I thought anyway.

I had moved into a new Condo four month's previous. I was single, currently unemployed though I managed to make a living aside from a steady full-time job as a free-lance writer of sorts. I had a sizeable inheritance to draw from as well if and when it was necessary, but even that wouldn't support me for long all by itself.

The Condo I'd just purchased was apart of a two Condo per floor type of architecture. I lived on the fourth floor of an eight-floor building. I had met my neighbors the same day that I moved in as we also shared an elevator that of course stopped at the same floor where we both lived. Donna and Steve as I met, and learned were my "down-the-hall" neighbors. Almost immediately I was attracted to Donna. She wasn't drop-dead gorgeous by any means, but there was something about her that caught my eye, and captured my heart. Silly as that was, especially with her being married and all, and a newly wed herself as she and Steve had only lived here not even a year yet themselves.

Original is 252 words.
Revised is 180 words.
Total savings is 72 words in 3 paragraphs.

Another thing that'll not only save word count, but will make the story seem more vibrant is to get rid of anyplace where you see the words "was" or "were" and you're not describing a state of being. Like "Almost immediately I was attracted to Donna." Passive. "Donna attracted me almost immediately." Active.

Remember the phrase "Keep It Simple Stupid!" Bigger words don't necessarily make better copy. "Four months previous" as opposed to "four months ago." Keep your audience in mind.

Well, 'nuff from Muff.

Work at it, man. You're good. Don't let complacency and people who think you're good enough stop you from being great!

 

[abashed-dreamer]

Thesandman can certainly tell a good tale, and in this case
the premise is appealing, almost believable.
I like too, the central 'twist', which is that the wife's revenge is to make him suck her hubby. That was well enough carried out.

As to the politics of the story, I think Redwave is right, it's hardly subversive. But that's not a requirement for a good piece of writing, is it? But here's a point that goes to the merits of the story, or maybe differentiates 'froth' from 'serious' porn. Did anyone notice that this was the chastest blowjob ever to grace these hallowed files? IF the story is designed to appeal to straight guys'
(or mostly straight) curiousity, what a let down! Look at the wealth of detail (literotica custom) for every other act in the story: smells, tastes, anatomical nuances. For the blowjob, almost nothing.

In that way, I'd say the story is either designed to be 'lite' and not scare the 18 yr old Hustler readers, or, as R obliquely suggests,
thesandman is, perhaps a bit homophobic. And indeed disinclined even to *imagine* that crucial act.

So, a fun tale. Wordy a bit. Thesandman can entertain, but his
squeamishness did hurt the story a bit.

abashed-dreamer
lfmn2x@hotmail.com

 

[norma jeanne]

homophobic?

I think you are missing the point of a straight guy sucking another guys cock. He doesn't want to suck this cock. He is not disgusted; it just isn't his idea of a good time. He sucks it 'cause he feels he has no choice. It was just something he had to do. If he had enjoyed it, then we would have heard the details of it. If he had hated it and felt homophobic about it, we would have heard about that. It was neither of these. It was just something he felt he had to do. He did it and got it over with.

 

[Guest]

LOL.......

Thank you Norma Jean....it WAS a neither here...nor there...type of situation. You hit on it perfectly.

Certainly not homophobic...lol. I guess they haven't read a few of the other stories I've written have they?



I remain...........

 

[norma jeanne]

No I guess they haven't read your other stories, if they think you are homophobic. I for one loved Mrs. Doubtfire, and everything else of yours I have read. I do believe you will be published. You are most definitely, a superb story teller.

Smooches...
nj

 

[REDWAVE]

Never said

Hey, no one ever said you were homophobic, Sandman dude. I just said you were a bourgeois writer-- which you obviously are.

 

[norma jeanne]

bourgeois

Not everyone feels the need to write things that are subversive, or write things to shock others. Some of us just write to entertain.

nj