Mother's Right... Father's Wronged?

neonlyte

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I post this without comment - I can't decide between either side.

Mother can keep birth 'a secret'

A woman who became pregnant after a one-night stand has been given the right to keep the birth a secret from the father. The Court of Appeal ruling came after a county court ordered the 20-year-old to tell both her parents and the father.

The three appeal judges agreed "the ultimate veto" over who is told about the birth lay with the mother.

Fathers' groups said the ruling treated the child as the property of the mother "to be disposed of as she sees fit".

The woman, who cannot be named for legal reasons, also kept the pregnancy hidden from her family. She said she wanted the baby girl, who is now 19 weeks old, adopted at birth without the knowledge of either them or her father.

A legal guardian and a local authority made the county court application to ensure the father and the woman's parents were told about the child. But the Court of Appeal ordered the local authority not to take any action to inform the father. They also prevented the local authority from taking any steps to allow the girl to meet any of her mother's family in order that they be assessed as potential carers.

The judge said the mother became pregnant when she was 19, and as she lived on her own, kept it secret from her divorced parents who she did not think would provide a good home for the baby.

Lady Justice Arden said the father's rights had not been violated because he did not have any to violate.


It is now clear that the Government believes children have no entitlement to a relationship with their fathers
Michael Cox, Fathers 4 Justice

John Baker, chairman of Families Need Fathers, said "It treats the child as the property of the mother, to be disposed of as she sees fit."

He said the ruling, taken in conjunction with the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill which could remove the requirement for IVF clinics to recognise the need of a father, was "intensely worrying".

He said: "A strong message seems to be sent that makes fathers redundant in the upbringing of children."

Fathers 4 Justice barrister Michael Cox said: "This father is the victim of a wicked deceit in which the State has been complicit. It is now clear that the Government believes children have no entitlement to a relationship with their fathers and that children are the property of their mothers and of the State."

Lord Justice Thorpe said: "The law improves the opportunity of the child of anonymous birth to search out its biological origin. However, the ultimate veto remains with the mother. Registers of information are in place to lead the searching child to the mother's door but the child has no right of entry if the mother, despite counselling, refuses to unlock it."
 
I am quite radical on this subject-- I do feel that a mother has absolute final decision on her own pregnancy.

A one night stand? It's her choice, and hers alone.
 
I agree with stella, besides a one night stand how many guys are going to even admit they could be the father? :rolleyes:

I am not so happy with the last bit though, according to that the child can only approach mom about who dad was and so forth, that is a really bad idea. Think of it this way, a woman who does unprotected one night stands may have absolutely no idea who the father of her kid is. I was lucky in that regard, but I have woken up many times leaking fluids not mine and nobody was there. Not to mention the nights I semi remember of taking a couple guys whose names I have no recollection of to the alley or in the bathroom.

OK granted I am a rather extreme version of a bar slut, though it is not to hard to end up waking up leaking some guys fluids and he's not there. So if mom is the only one who knows, that isn't going to help. I think it would be best if mom would at least give a name or list whenever possible of who could be the father. Don't have to tell them but that way at least the kid has an idea of who dad is. I personally would want to know who else I am related to, since well it is always good to not marry a half brother and have three kids. :eek:
 
All I can say is that if I were in that situation and I had gotten a woman pregnant I would want to know about it and have some say in the matter, even if it was a one night stand. After all, it takes two to tango. It was a choice both parties made, not just the mother.

Think about this. What if this happened to you? Let's say you were a man and you fathered a child. What happens 20 years down the line and the child decides they want to find their birth parents? Suddenly you have a son or daughter in your life that you never even knew existed. You were never given a chance to watch them grow up. Never had a chance to take your son to a ball game, or watch your daughter dance at a ballet recital. That's twenty years you will never be able to regain, and you never had a choice. That would absolutely devastate me.

I understand not wanting to tell her parents, I mean she was of age after all and legally an adult. I could understand not wanting to tell the father because you were afraid they would be abusive to the child as well. There are always going to be circumstances where keeping the pregnancy a secret is the best thing for everyone. But for everyone else? I dunno, it just feels wrong to me.

Maybe I'm naive. I probably am. I don't have kids. But I'd want to know.
 
It's frustrating, isn't it, Trom?

Here's the thing-- being who YOU are, you might be much more likely to put the make on a woman who would tell you.

This ruling does not say that every knocked-up bar broad must keep her pregnancy a secret-- only that she may if she wants to.
 
Stella_Omega said:
It's frustrating, isn't it, Trom?

Here's the thing-- being who YOU are, you might be much more likely to put the make on a woman who would tell you.

This ruling does not say that every knocked-up bar broad must keep her pregnancy a secret-- only that she may if she wants to.
Yeah I know. I mean I understand everything and all, but like I said, I'd hate to have that happen to me.

lol, and knowing who I am I'm much more likely not to put the make on anyone. :p
 
Thrombonus raises some interesting questions, I think...

I think, since most anyone could guess what position I would take on this issue, since you know my viewpoints so well and I never change, why not someone else present my viewpoint, then break it down and show, step by step the ethical, rational, logical and moral reasons for your position and then defend against the onslaught?

chuckles... :cool:

amicus...
 
MY body
MY choice

Any woman's body
THEIR choice

to be ruthlessly honest.... sorry guys but it is NOT your right.... your total responsiblility in the action was for all of what... a 30 second ejaculation... everything else is on me (or other women)
 
Elizabetht said:
MY body
MY choice

Any woman's body
THEIR choice

to be ruthlessly honest.... sorry guys but it is NOT your right.... your total responsiblility in the action was for all of what... a 30 second ejaculation... everything else is on me (or other women)

On the other side of the coin, would it be the man's right to know he has a child, if he is willing and able to offer help and care in raising the child?
 
slyc_willie said:
On the other side of the coin, would it be the man's right to know he has a child, if he is willing and able to offer help and care in raising the child?

SC....

Ultimately I will be the one raising that child, I will be the primary caregiver... I will be responsible for tucking them in at night, reading them stories, making sure they get to school... I will be the one there for all of the things little and small and I don't believe that in this instance that some guy that got me pregnant in a one night stand really has anything to do with my life or the life of the child within me except that I now have something that is more precious then anything else that has ever occured in my life... he didnt ask for this, didnt want it... he got what he wished for and that was a piece of ass

(no I am not pregnant... I was using the scenario stated above)
 
(Hint) Perhaps what the social agencies, back up by the courts offer, "In the best interests of the child..." Perhaps neither mother nor father, but the individual child with those innate rights simply by being born is the fountainhead and the source of decisions concerning the well being of the child?

Ami...
 
Elizabetht said:
MY body
MY choice

Any woman's body
THEIR choice

to be ruthlessly honest.... sorry guys but it is NOT your right.... your total responsiblility in the action was for all of what... a 30 second ejaculation... everything else is on me (or other women)
The issue here pertaining to this article has absolutely nothing to do with the woman's body. It's about giving birth to the child and then giving it up for adoption. If this were an issue about abortion then yes, I could see your point. Even so I would want to know. Just because we're not carrying the baby in our body doesn't mean we aren't involved too. It's our child in there too.
 
Elizabetht said:
SC....

Ultimately I will be the one raising that child, I will be the primary caregiver... I will be responsible for tucking them in at night, reading them stories, making sure they get to school... I will be the one there for all of the things little and small and I don't believe that in this instance that some guy that got me pregnant in a one night stand really has anything to do with my life or the life of the child within me except that I now have something that is more precious then anything else that has ever occured in my life... he didnt ask for this, didnt want it... he got what he wished for and that was a piece of ass

(no I am not pregnant... I was using the scenario stated above)

But my question was about a man who wanted to be part of the child's life.

For the record, I would whole-heartedly agree that a woman has every right to keep a pregnancy a secret. BUT, if the man who fathered her child wants access to the him or her, he has every right as well.

Otherwise, paternity suits could get shot down with a simple, "Sorry, baby, but you didn't have to say yes."
 
If I (for argument's sake) were carrying your child Trom, or Slyc, I would be secure and confident in telling you about it, even if I'd only known you for one alcohol-fuelled night. I know that you and I would make good decisions together, and that, through the ups and downs neither of us would regret our partnership-- in abortion, parenting, whatever.

There are a few other men I can say this of; many of the men I've fucked in my past, I could not say that. Great for one night-- I'd have to be crazy to want anything further to do with them.
 
Trombonus said:
The issue here pertaining to this article has absolutely nothing to do with the woman's body. It's about giving birth to the child and then giving it up for adoption. If this were an issue about abortion then yes, I could see your point. Even so I would want to know. Just because we're not carrying the baby in our body doesn't mean we aren't involved too. It's our child in there too.

I never mentioned abortion at ANYTIME... do not confuse this issue with that one.

Since being polite didnt work lets try blunt.

If you and I met up at a bar and got shit faced drunk then proceeded to fuck each other.... in the morning or later that night when the drunk or buzz wore off we went our seperate ways... then later I found out that I was pregnant would I feel obligated to tell you about it... nope... because there is nothing to 'US' .... 'we' were simply one night of drunken fucking and nothing more. My being pregnant would be an entirely DIFFERENT situation one that I was responsible for.
 
I am a bit on the fence on this one but my worry is... in years to come .. with all these 'children with unnamed fathers' ... there is a very big risk that siblings may get together ... or father/ daughter for that matter and not know!!
 
slyc_willie said:
But my question was about a man who wanted to be part of the child's life.

For the record, I would whole-heartedly agree that a woman has every right to keep a pregnancy a secret. BUT, if the man who fathered her child wants access to the him or her, he has every right as well.

Otherwise, paternity suits could get shot down with a simple, "Sorry, baby, but you didn't have to say yes."

But in the scenario that was stated... the 'father' didn't know anything about it... it was a one night stand...a fuck night... a nothing night of sex that resulted in a woman getting pregnant... she made the decisions that she had to in order for what was best for her and the child that was created

I cannot see where a man would suddenly jump forward and decide to take care or want care of a child from a woman that essentially amounted to nothing more then some sexual relief.
 
Missdemeanour said:
I am a bit on the fence on this one but my worry is... in years to come .. with all these 'children with unnamed fathers' ... there is a very big risk that siblings may get together ... or father/ daughter for that matter and not know!!
All of those millions, huh? ;)

There is a similar risk with children sired by sperm donors. I know one man who kept in pocket-money for about ten years-- his coloring, ethnicity, and I.Q made his genetic material quite sought after... :rolleyes:
 
Stella_Omega said:
If I (for argument's sake) were carrying your child Trom, or Slyc, I would be secure and confident in telling you about it, even if I'd only known you for one alcohol-fuelled night. I know that you and I would make good decisions together, and that, through the ups and downs neither of us would regret our partnership-- in abortion, parenting, whatever.

There are a few other men I can say this of; many of the men I've fucked in my past, I could not say that. Great for one night-- I'd have to be crazy to want anything further to do with them.

I know a few women I could say the same about, from my 'roaring twenties.'

But, since you brought it up, how 'bout getting a bottle of wine tomorrow night? :p
 
Stella_Omega said:
All of those millions, huh? ;)

There is a similar risk with children sired by sperm donors. I know one man who kept in pocket-money for about ten years-- his coloring, ethnicity, and I.Q made his genetic material quite sought after... :rolleyes:
Don't sperm donors have a sort of ID number that the child of that donor would know? I mean, not everyone swaps sperm-donor-dad-numbers before a one-night-stand or something, but I thought that was at least one way to recognize a potential relation.
 
Elizabetht said:
But in the scenario that was stated... the 'father' didn't know anything about it... it was a one night stand...a fuck night... a nothing night of sex that resulted in a woman getting pregnant... she made the decisions that she had to in order for what was best for her and the child that was created

I cannot see where a man would suddenly jump forward and decide to take care or want care of a child from a woman that essentially amounted to nothing more then some sexual relief.

You're making the assumption that it was only sexual relief. There are men out there who think a one-night-stand is the beginning (I've had a few of these) of a relationship. Just as there are women who do and don't.

If I discovered that a one-night-stand from ten years ago resulted in a child, you can bet your ass I'd exercise my rights as the child's father. Wouldn't necessarily want to have anything to do with the mother, that would be a different matter. But it would be my child too, damn it.
 
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Stella_Omega said:
If I (for argument's sake) were carrying your child, Trom, I would be secure and confident in telling you about it, even if I'd only known you for one alcohol-fuelled night. I know that you and I would make good decisions together, and that, through the ups and downs neither of us would regret our partnership-- in abortion, parenting, whatever.

There are a few other men I can say this of; many of the men I've fucked in my past, I could not say that. Great for one night-- I'd have to be crazy to want anything further to do with them.
I understand that, and I'm grateful for the kind words. :)

But I'm thinking more along the lines that the two consenting individuals don't know each other, save for a few moments before getting together. How would you know that the guy would not be a suitable father?

It just seems like we're all assuming that this guy is an asshole who was just looking for a good time. What if he was a guy like me? What if he was feeling vulnerable and got wrapped up in the situation? Yeah, he could be an ass, or even dangerous, but he could be a decent guy too. We don't know the full details, and she may not even know herself.

I guess what I'm saying is that there's no yes or no answer here, as is the case in many things in life. And yeah, I think a woman should be able to decide whether to keep her pregnancy a secret or not, but I think there should be a reason for it. If he's an ass then fine, keep the pregnancy secret. But if he's a decent guy that would be a good father then he should have the right to know.
 
slyc_willie said:
You're making the assumption that it was only sexual relief. There are men out there who think a one-night-stand is the beginning (I've had a few of these) of a relationship. Just as there are women who do and don't.

If I discovered that a one-night-stand from ten years ago resulted in a child, you can bet your ass I'd exercise my rights as the child's father. Wouldn't necessarily want to have anything to do with the mother, that would be a different matter. But it would be my child too, damn it.

I am looking at it through the eyes of a woman that has been at the bar, the truck stop, the club and seen the guys that just 'need it' or whatever. No, I am not saying that there are not women like that out there but we are not talking about women we are talking about a this one guy in this one situation. But as we all know this one situation sets a precident for all other similar situations that may crop up. I believe that she has a right to decide this matter for herself, especially since she decided that the best parenting choice she could make for the betterment of the child was to give it up for adoption so that it would have a chance at a better life then the one that she believed she would provide. I think that takes an amazing amount of courage to do. It was a one night stand... ONE night... not oodles, not a relationship... just one night.

If in the future... something like that happened then so be it... but again... that's not right now and not what the mother decided.
 
Elizabetht said:
I never mentioned abortion at ANYTIME... do not confuse this issue with that one.

Since being polite didnt work lets try blunt.

If you and I met up at a bar and got shit faced drunk then proceeded to fuck each other.... in the morning or later that night when the drunk or buzz wore off we went our seperate ways... then later I found out that I was pregnant would I feel obligated to tell you about it... nope... because there is nothing to 'US' .... 'we' were simply one night of drunken fucking and nothing more. My being pregnant would be an entirely DIFFERENT situation one that I was responsible for.
First of all, I didn't find your comment to be polite, I found it to be offensive. I'm not easily offended, but your comment really was to me. Maybe I misinterpreted it. I hope so.

So I don't drink, and most people here know that, so we can throw that out right now. I am however very vulnerable, and easily manipulated. You don't think a woman would take advantage of a guy like me? They would and they have. My last girlfriend before Magica ended our relationship by admitting to me that she was only using me for sex. What if she had decided to have sex with me then ditch me while I slept during the night?

We don't know what happened. All they said in the article was that it was a one-night-stand. I'm not saying you're wrong outright. The situation you described makes sense to me. However, that's just one situation out of many possibilities.
 
Trombonus said:
I understand that, and I'm grateful for the kind words. :)

But I'm thinking more along the lines that the two consenting individuals don't know each other, save for a few moments before getting together. How would you know that the guy would not be a suitable father?

It just seems like we're all assuming that this guy is an asshole who was just looking for a good time. What if he was a guy like me? What if he was feeling vulnerable and got wrapped up in the situation? Yeah, he could be an ass, or even dangerous, but he could be a decent guy too. We don't know the full details, and she may not even know herself.

I guess what I'm saying is that there's no yes or no answer here, as is the case in many things in life. And yeah, I think a woman should be able to decide whether to keep her pregnancy a secret or not, but I think there should be a reason for it. If he's an ass then fine, keep the pregnancy secret. But if he's a decent guy that would be a good father then he should have the right to know.


One night stand....
She doesn't have a clue if he is a decent guy or not... she doesn't know anything about him except that she slept with him that one night. So should she risk her life and the lifeof her child to find this man and tell him?
 
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