Mother's Right... Father's Wronged?

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

EMAP

In Florida you cannot terminate parental rights without diligent search for the father. A new law created a paternity database for men who believe they may be fathers, and the state is obligated to screen them before allowing adoption or termination of parental rights.

 

[amicus]

emap...you miss the entire point of my attempted input to this thread.

An act of sexual intercourse between two human beings could and ought to be a meaningful experience, for many reasons, not just the potential of creating a new life, but for the personal and familial involvements that cannot be denied.

We, as a society, have always accepted that the lower class of people have few values about anything, let alone promiscuous sexual behavior.

But the sexual liberties afforded society in the past half century have created new problems for the middle and upper class, not just the under 80 IQ bunch who don't comprehend what they are doing anyway.

With the advent of contraceptive chemicals that offer a 99 percent certainty of sexual intercourse without conception and abortion for convenience, society has given free reign to the indiscrimate, recreational sex for pleasure, without consequences, of which you speak.

I suggest only that this needs to be considered, rather than the minutia that occupies most of this thread. In this case it is not the details that are the devil of the matter, rather the fundamental issues involved and that surround the value of life, choice and responsibility.

Amicus...

 

[Vermilion]

emap...you miss the entire point of my attempted input to this thread.

An act of sexual intercourse between two human beings could and ought to be a meaningful experience, for many reasons, not just the potential of creating a new life, but for the personal and familial involvements that cannot be denied.

We, as a society, have always accepted that the lower class of people have few values about anything, let alone promiscuous sexual behavior.

But the sexual liberties afforded society in the past half century have created new problems for the middle and upper class, not just the under 80 IQ bunch who don't comprehend what they are doing anyway.

With the advent of contraceptive chemicals that offer a 99 percent certainty of sexual intercourse without conception and abortion for convenience, society has given free reign to the indiscrimate, recreational sex for pleasure, without consequences, of which you speak.

I suggest only that this needs to be considered, rather than the minutia that occupies most of this thread. In this case it is not the details that are the devil of the matter, rather the fundamental issues involved and that surround the value of life, choice and responsibility.

Amicus...

with respect, Amicus, promiscuity has very little to do with class. Les Liasions Dangereuses was no more deviant than contemporary society at that time. Even the supposedly prudish Upper Class Victorians throve on a sub-culture of opium and small boys.

I actually agree with your point that sex should be a meaningful experience, but perhaps it takes experience (for some) of non-meaningful encounters to realise this?

Anyhow... Just wanted to head off any class-related arguments before they occurred... (and for heavens sakes - just look at our Royal family for upper-class shenanigans, from Henry VIII to our modern Prince Harry... dirty dawgs the lot of them )

x
V

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The upper classes generally pay the freight for their spawn, the peasants dont.

I know peasant girls who make a living pumping puppies. They get pregnant and collect money from several contestants who think theyre the father.

 

[amicus]

with respect, Amicus, promiscuity has very little to do with class. Les Liasions Dangereuses was no more deviant than contemporary society at that time. Even the supposedly prudish Upper Class Victorians throve on a sub-culture of opium and small boys.

I actually agree with your point that sex should be a meaningful experience, but perhaps it takes experience (for some) of non-meaningful encounters to realise this?

Anyhow... Just wanted to head off any class-related arguments before they occurred... (and for heavens sakes - just look at our Royal family for upper-class shenanigans, from Henry VIII to our modern Prince Harry... dirty dawgs the lot of them )

x
V

~~~

Hi, Red Shoes...you make a partially valid point, but only partially.

Sexual proclivities most likely do not vary much between the classes, I agree, but, the upper class is much more closely scrutinized for their behavior as the consequences bear weight on many issues concerning heritage whereas the lower class could care less.

"Opium and small boys..." There are perverts in all era's and I think you know that. Society deals with those fringe elements as a matter of course, as does history, in most cases, while the mainstream of humanity stumbles forward.

As I have stated and I think you are aware of, I maintain that a new and unique and fully protected human life begins at the instant of conception. That means a lot as the genes and chromosomes of two separate individuals, representing a geneological history back to the roots of mankind are carried by that new life.

I maintain that these events are values and must be maintained as such, if we, as a species, are to have any values at all.

You may not agree with my philosophy, but I do have one and it is consistent and congruent and interlocking and does not vary over time.

"Thas my story and I'm stickin' to it."

grins...



Amicus...

 

[Guest]

If a child is chattel, then I suppose a woman has a right to do with it however she pleases.

If a child isnt chattel, she doesnt.

Believing children are property (chattel) is indicative of a mental disorder called Borderline Personality (psychotic/anxious).

So is believing that women are chattel.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SARAH

I dont care if women abort.

I have 9 grandchildren. The more women abort, the more influence my progeny has on future generations of people. My children and grandchildren are treasures I take pains to nurture and protect. My children do the same.

One of my sisters did a voluntary sterilization when she was 22. Mostly because she wanted to fuck everyone in pants. But what she wanted at 22 isnt what she wanted at 40. And, here's the irony of it, she married a guy and raised HIS kids.

 

[amicus]

SARAH

I dont care if women abort.

I have 9 grandchildren. The more women abort, the more influence my progeny has on future generations of people. My children and grandchildren are treasures I take pains to nurture and protect. My children do the same.

One of my sisters did a voluntary sterilization when she was 22. Mostly because she wanted to fuck everyone in pants. But what she wanted at 22 isnt what she wanted at 40. And, here's the irony of it, she married a guy and raised HIS kids.

~~~

One of my daughters, (I have five) just sent me an email photograph of nine of my grandchildren celebrating Thanksgiving Day. You said, in a post, I think, that humans cannot have empathy for each other, well, perhaps, but I have empathy for the situation you described with your sister, not for the same reason, but...

Amicus...

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

I picked up a book from the FOR SALE pile at the local library. It's a 70s PEOPLE SKILLS book. It's filled with all the PC crap we know and love. HAVE EMPATHY, DONT BE JUDGMENTAL, YOURE A FASCIST SHIT AND THE MISCREANT PISSING ON YOUR FOOT IS ONE OF GOD'S SPECIAL LAMBS, ETC.

The author quotes liberally from Carl Rogers, but he never defines his terms. He qualifies everything with "It's a complex process to explain BUT..." And nothing is defined beyond the implication that the reader is ignorant shit.

Now, I invest a lot of time in trying to understand what people mean. Empathy, as I understand it, means that I can know what you feel or think about various experiences. For example, if I see you get your ass spanked I KNOW IT WAS AN AWFUL THING FOR YOU because that's what I felt when my daddy spanked me.

And I hate scallops. I get sick if I eat them. SO I KNOW YOU HAVE THE SAME, IDENTICAL REACTION TO THEM THAT I HAVE.

I KNOW YOU LAUGH YOUR ASS OFF WATCHING THE 3 STOOGES, bcause I do.

Empathy is delusional bullshit. At best its a rough approximation.

I forgot to add that my farts smell just like orange blossoms, and I'm confident everyone has the same experience with them.

 

[sr71plt]

Goddam. Tell me how, in any circumstance, you can ever keep the state the hell out of your life, and I'm your disciple. The state always thinks it has a right to be involved.

I think if you got your wish about the state being totally out of your life, your hours would be spent hiding in your cave and venturing out to throw rocks at birds for food and other people throwing rocks at birds (and and you) and then slinking back to the shadows of your cave to exist for as long as you could in your meager existence such as it is. Pretty shallow thinking. ("The state" is you, trying to bring order to your life.)

 

[sr71plt]

So is believing that women are chattel.

So is believing that men are chattel.

 

[Vermilion]

So is believing that men are chattel.

whilst some misguided women (and men) like to think this, it has never been in the law. Unlike with women.
Not that this has any relevance to the thread, but hey.

 

[Liar]

So is believing that men are chattel.

How about chattel? Can chattel be chattel?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

LIAR

Only if they have horns or are horny.

 

[Guest]

How about chattel? Can chattel be chattel?

Who worries about the chattel?

So forgotten. We must start fundraising efforts at once.

 

[emap]

Ami you missed my point, perhaps you should go sleep it off.

I never said that a child is a bad thing, well in certain circumstances it is to a degree. However, what I have been saying is, if the father is not around and not taking an interest in the fruit of his loins, why should anyone have to go find him to put the child up for adoption? Simply because the act of finding him to get permission ruins the child's chances of being adopted unless say his parents want their grandchild, or her parents do. If no family member is to be found and he is unknown, at least in location, why should the adoption of a healthy baby be delayed to find said father. Put the kid up for adoption and be done with it, better for the kid, better for the mother, probably better for the father.

I mean seriously, why is it bad to delay an adoption unnecessarily when doing so means the child is most likely to never be adopted?

Going back to Florida with their law about having to ask the father, great they have a database, that is filled with only men who won't sneak out in the middle of the night, not exactly a great plan. I would be happy with that law if say, every man who has gone to school in Florida or works in Florida has to donate a little DNA for this list. Even better if every man who visits Florida has to donate, means every possible father of a new child is registered in the database and finding said person gets tons easier.

 

[Oblimo]

I know peasant girls who make a living pumping puppies. They get pregnant and collect money from several contestants who think theyre the father.

Know them by name?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

EMAP

Sometimes the ladies dont want anyone knowing who daddy really is. I recall one woman who implicated every man in town. We tested all of them. Nope. Turns out it was Grand-dad.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

OBLIMO

Yep. I know all the tricks girls play.

 

[Oblimo]

If a child is chattel, then I suppose a woman has a right to do with it however she pleases.

If a child isnt chattel, she doesnt.

The child, mother, and father all have interests. The weights of these interests change depending on the circumstances. The weight of these interests determine which rights trump others.

Parental rights have had nothing to do with treating children as property in the US nowadays. It all comes down to the balance of rights; that's how these issues are resolved in real life.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

OBLIMO a right is something no one can take from you or prevent you using it. These are the only rights there are.

I think youre referring to warrants, a legal justification or guarantee to something.

Presently women have a warrant to abort within specific parameters; but she has no total confidence that some agent wont prevent it.

 

[Oblimo]

OBLIMO a right is something no one can take from you or prevent you using it. These are the only rights there are.

I think youre referring to warrants, a legal justification or guarantee to something.

Presently women have a warrant to abort within specific parameters; but she has no total confidence that some agent wont prevent it.

I am using the terminology used throughout the Federal case law of the United States. I see no reason to adopt another when talking about United States case law, unless we're dealing with a peculiarities of an individual jurisdiction.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

OBLIMO

Go to court some time and see what judges do with definitions of words.

 

[sr71plt]

Know them by name?

Or possibly in a biblical sense?