Mosque at Ground Zero

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
[...]I'm surprised you would even mention that on this thread, since it is of so little value in debate.[...]
What do you think would happen if the Catholic Church wanted to build a massive cathedral in Riyadh or Tehran or other Muslim capital?

Actually, your last statement has no value in this debate. Or are you suggesting that the U.S. should base its system of governance on Islamic law, as Iran and Saudi Arabia do? Or that legal disputes should be settled on a tit-for-tat basis? It doesn't matter what officials in Tehran would do if Catholics wanted to build a massive cathedral there - this is the U.S., a country founded on the principles of religious tolerance and the separation of church and state.

Secondly, this isn't a cathedral - it's a community center, like thousands of YMCAs and Jewish Community Centers all over the country. The way you talk, one would think it's a giant middle finger with a star and crescent on top.

I realize it is a community center, although it does include a mosque. I have mentioned that fact in other posts on the subject. So then, what do you think would happen if somebody wanted to build a YMCA or Jewish community center in Tehran or other Muslim capital. I believe that, generally speaking, when Muslims are able to set themselves up in charge of a country, they want very little to do with other faiths, although they expect other faiths and other countries to accept them and their ideas, no matter how extreme.

As for the community center being a middle finger, many New Yorkers think of it as being equal to that, whether internded or not. In my first post, I compared it to the Nazi party holding a parade that went past or around a Jewish retirement home that housed Holocaust survivors. (Or do you deny The Holocaust?) Legal but highly insensitive, maybe deliberately so.

 

[cloudy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
[...]I'm surprised you would even mention that on this thread, since it is of so little value in debate.[...]
What do you think would happen if the Catholic Church wanted to build a massive cathedral in Riyadh or Tehran or other Muslim capital?


I realize it is a community center, although it does include a mosque. I have mentioned that fact in other posts on the subject. So then, what do you think would happen if somebody wanted to build a YMCA or Jewish community center in Tehran or other Muslim capital. I believe that, generally speaking, when Muslims are able to set themselves up in charge of a country, they want very little to do with other faiths, although they expect other faiths and other countries to accept them and their ideas, no matter how extreme.

As for the community center being a middle finger, many New Yorkers think of it as being equal to that, whether internded or not. In my first post, I compared it to the Nazi party holding a parade that went past or around a Jewish retirement home that housed Holocaust survivors. (Or do you deny The Holocaust?) Legal but highly insensitive, maybe deliberately so.

Dear god, you're so fucking stupid.

Do you have to be reminded to breathe?

 

[Boxlicker101]

Dear god, you're so fucking stupid.

Do you have to be reminded to breathe?

It's certainly nice to see such sharp insight and clever repartee.

 

[WRJames]

This ignores so much history. Where did we get algebra? Arabic numerals -- dd you ever wonder why they were called that? It was the Moslem world that prepared the way for the scientific revolution.

Much of what we consider core Western values, particularly our treatment of women, is a very, very recent development in the West. And within ten miles of me there is a group as repressive as any in Afghanistian or Iran.

 

[Boxlicker101]

This ignores so much history. Where did we get algebra? Arabic numerals -- dd you ever wonder why they were called that? It was the Moslem world that prepared the way for the scientific revolution.

Much of what we consider core Western values, particularly our treatment of women, is a very, very recent development in the West. And within ten miles of me there is a group as repressive as any in Afghanistian or Iran.

Without question, Christian fundies are little better than fundie Muslims, but they are almost impotent. This is not the case with the Muslims, who stone women to death for adultery and put them in prison for being in the company of a man who is not a relative, and similar evil deeds. Such severe punishment is actually part of the laws of some Muslim nations. Many years ago, women were not far from being treated as chattel, even in the USA, but we never sank to such depths as the Taliban.

Some of these repressions may have been the result of local custom, rather than of Islam, but they have been incorporated into the faith, and Islamic clergy are the ones ordering brutal punishments for trivial offensesd and/or carrying them out.

 

[Liar]

I realize it is a community center, although it does include a mosque. I have mentioned that fact in other posts on the subject. So then, what do you think would happen if somebody wanted to build a YMCA or Jewish community center in Tehran or other Muslim capital. I believe that, generally speaking, when Muslims are able to set themselves up in charge of a country, they want very little to do with other faiths, although they expect other faiths and other countries to accept them and their ideas, no matter how extreme.

You have already forgotten that I showed you the big-ass Christian church in the middle of Teheran?

But even that's beside the point. Is your agument really "Islamic theocracies are pretty intolerant, so we should be too"?

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
I realize it is a community center, although it does include a mosque. I have mentioned that fact in other posts on the subject. So then, what do you think would happen if somebody wanted to build a YMCA or Jewish community center in Tehran or other Muslim capital. I believe that, generally speaking, when Muslims are able to set themselves up in charge of a country, they want very little to do with other faiths, although they expect other faiths and other countries to accept them and their ideas, no matter how extreme.

You have already forgotten that I showed you the big-ass Christian church in the middle of Teheran?

But even that's beside the point. Is your agument really "Islamic theocracies are pretty intolerant, so we should be too"?

That church you mentioned was built a long time ago. My question was "Could a church or synagogue be built there now?" I will repeat the question now.

I am all for extending the hand of friendship, but when those you offer it to spit in your eye, what then? Eventually, you get tired of it.

 

[Huckleman2000]

Without question, Christian fundies are little better than fundie Muslims, but they are almost impotent. [...]

Almost impotent? Tim Mcveigh? The Dr. Tiller assassin? That militia group they just rounded up in Michigan? Abortion clinic bombers? To say nothing of the political power they wield in addition to their terrorist attacks.

 

[ishtat]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
I realize it is a community center, although it does include a mosque. I have mentioned that fact in other posts on the subject. So then, what do you think would happen if somebody wanted to build a YMCA or Jewish community center in Tehran or other Muslim capital. I believe that, generally speaking, when Muslims are able to set themselves up in charge of a country, they want very little to do with other faiths, although they expect other faiths and other countries to accept them and their ideas, no matter how extreme.




That church you mentioned was built a long time ago. My question was "Could a church or synagogue be built there now?" I will repeat the question now.

I am all for extending the hand of friendship, but when those you offer it to spit in your eye, what then? Eventually, you get tired of it.

Box there are still about 30,000 Jews living in Iran as they have for the past 2,500 years. This is down on the 80,000 who used to live there but Israel offered them significant incentives to emigrate as they did to the Jews in all the other large Arab communities, especially Egypt and Morocco.

Iranian Jews and Zoroastrians are allocated representation in the Iranian Parliament they would not get on the basis of their numbers. The traditional enemies of Iran are Sunni muslims and Arabs. When they are both Sunni and Arab the hatred is at its greatest.

If the mosque in question was one which taught the Wahabbi extremism of America's close ally Saudi Arabia that would be untenable but if the mosque taught say sufism or the more tolerant strands of Shia thought usually found in America's enemy Iran there would be few problems.

Box the world we live in appears to be less simple than the one you inhabit.

PS 26 of Irans 100 or so synagogues are in Tehran

 

[oggbashan]

Question: If other countries, mostly those with a religious bias, behave badly to religions that they don't like, why should we reciprocate?

Surely by showing tolerance of religious practices that are no threat to us, we are demonstrating a better way?

Og

PS. By demonising all Muslims, we are accepting Al-Queda's spurious justification. It wasn't Muslims that carried out the attacks on 9/11 but Al-Queda, claiming to be acting for religious motives. They didn't care that Muslims died as a result.

The atrocities in Northern Ireland by "Catholics" and "Protestants" have always been condemned by the Churches in Northern Ireland. Again, the terrorists claimed religion as their justification even when the leaders of the religion opposed them.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Box there are still about 30,000 Jews living in Iran as they have for the past 2,500 years. This is down on the 80,000 who used to live there but Israel offered them significant incentives to emigrate as they did to the Jews in all the other large Arab communities, especially Egypt and Morocco.

Iranian Jews and Zoroastrians are allocated representation in the Iranian Parliament they would not get on the basis of their numbers. The traditional enemies of Iran are Sunni muslims and Arabs. When they are both Sunni and Arab the hatred is at its greatest.

If the mosque in question was one which taught the Wahabbi extremism of America's close ally Saudi Arabia that would be untenable but if the mosque taught say sufism or the more tolerant strands of Shia thought usually found in America's enemy Iran there would be few problems.

Box the world we live in appears to be less simple than the one you inhabit.

PS 26 of Irans 100 or so synagogues are in Tehran

During the Holocaust some Jews lived in Germany with perfect immunity and protection. They were people Hitler knew from long association or they had won Iron Cross medals during World War 1.

 

[Katyusha]

As for the community center being a middle finger, many New Yorkers think of it as being equal to that, whether internded or not. In my first post, I compared it to the Nazi party holding a parade that went past or around a Jewish retirement home that housed Holocaust survivors. (Or do you deny The Holocaust?) Legal but highly insensitive, maybe deliberately so.

This is also an invalid comparison, Box. We're talking about extremists who have twisted and perverted their religion into something that they think justifies their horrors. It wasn't some Nazi extremists that perpetrated the Holocaust, with Nazi leaders and mainstream Nazis decrying their actions. Getting rid of Jews (and others) was the main focus of the whole Nazi party. Getting rid of the infidels (us Westerners) is not the aim of all of Islam.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

This is also an invalid comparison, Box. We're talking about extremists who have twisted and perverted their religion into something that they think justifies their horrors. It wasn't some Nazi extremists that perpetrated the Holocaust, with Nazi leaders and mainstream Nazis decrying their actions. Getting rid of Jews (and others) was the main focus of the whole Nazi party. Getting rid of the infidels (us Westerners) is not the aim of all of Islam.

Well said.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
Without question, Christian fundies are little better than fundie Muslims, but they are almost impotent. [...]

Almost impotent? Tim Mcveigh? The Dr. Tiller assassin? That militia group they just rounded up in Michigan? Abortion clinic bombers? To say nothing of the political power they wield in addition to their terrorist attacks.

McVeigh is dead, which is about as impotent as you can get. His thing wasn't religion anyhow, except maybe a kind of freedom of religion idea. I say that because his motive was the massacre of the Branch Dravidians in Waco by the ATF and other US government minions. The OK City bombing was exactly one year after that massacre.

I don't know about the militia group, but if they just got rounded up, they can't be very potent either. The others you mentioned are individuals, and will be in prison if and when they get caught.

On the other hand, the Muslim fundies have billions of dollars and a large operation behind them, even including the governments of Iran and probably some other countries. I have no use for anybody who wants to impose his or faith on others, but the Muslim fundies are much more of a menace than their opposite number among Christians or Jews or, probably, any other faith.

 

[Boxlicker101]

This is also an invalid comparison, Box. We're talking about extremists who have twisted and perverted their religion into something that they think justifies their horrors. It wasn't some Nazi extremists that perpetrated the Holocaust, with Nazi leaders and mainstream Nazis decrying their actions. Getting rid of Jews (and others) was the main focus of the whole Nazi party. Getting rid of the infidels (us Westerners) is not the aim of all of Islam.

I said it was comparable to the Nazi parade in that it would be an "in your face" gesture. I never said it was identical, nor did I make any other comparison.

Do you know who is paying for the construction? I don't mean the front man, I mean the people putting up the money and doing the other heavy lifting. I don't, by the way. It might be Bin Laden, for all I know. I'm not saying it is; I am saying we don't know, and the front man has been asked.

Just to reiterate, nobody is trying to do something illegal. They are just being extremely insensitive.

 

[cloudy]

It's certainly nice to see such sharp insight and clever repartee.

I'm glad you understood it. I tried to use small words.

It might be Bin Laden, for all I know.

Oh, for fuck's sake. This tops the stupid-o-meter, for sure.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I'm glad you understood it. I tried to use small words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
Without question, Christian fundies are little better than fundie Muslims, but they are almost impotent. [...]


Oh, for fuck's sake. This tops the stupid-o-meter, for sure.

Do you know for sure it isn't? I don't believe it is, but I don't know for sure it isn't.

 

[cloudy]

Do you know for sure it isn't? I don't believe it is, but I don't know for sure it isn't.

I don't know that this will happen, but it might, although I'm not saying that it will...

No wonder you're so fucking confused all the time.

 

[Liar]

Do you know for sure it isn't? I don't believe it is, but I don't know for sure it isn't.

Do I you know for sure you are not a ten foot fat smurf with a unicorn horn shaped like the Eiffel Tower sticking out of your forehead?

I don't believe you are but I don't know for sure you're not.

 

[Huckleman2000]

Someone should tell Sarah Palin that we found oil under ground zero.

 

[amicus]

No one questions the legality of building any Mosque anywhere; what Obama found out over the weekend was, that the 'wisdom' of confronting the victims of 9/11 with an adjacent Islamic structure. The uproar is nationwide and even Harry Reid voiced disagreement with Obama.

I had a better weekend, not that it matters...I gained a daughter and one and a half grandchildren...the 'C' section is planned for 1/1/11...

All is well in the world of Amicus, thank you.

 

[amicus]

This ignores so much history. Where did we get algebra? Arabic numerals -- dd you ever wonder why they were called that? It was the Moslem world that prepared the way for the scientific revolution.

Much of what we consider core Western values, particularly our treatment of women, is a very, very recent development in the West. And within ten miles of me there is a group as repressive as any in Afghanistian or Iran.[/QUOTE]

~~~

The name of the project near 9/11, is 'Cordoba' based on a Muslim conquest in Spain during which they built a Mosque on the site of a destroyed Christian Church.

One could call up the history of Germanic Tribes and a coalition of peoples subjugated under the Roman Empire and make a case for the Germans, if one were so inclined.

I have often paid tribute to Chinese Culture, 5,000 years ago in terms of advanced pottery techniques and fireworks. To the Phonecians and their seafaring skills. Even prior to the world of Islam, yes, Arab culture centered in Iraq was the pride of the known world.

One might make claims that the Roman Empire brought civilization through conquest to many peoples; one might make the same claim of the British Empire that brought civilization to an even wider scope around the world.

I would like to see religion and religous conflict fade into history and not be a factor in the modern world but that is not to be for perhaps another 10,000 years of human history when faith and belief are finally retired and reason prevails.

One cannot always provide a thumbnail of the history behind a Post or an assertion; but any who doubt that what we are living through is a resurgence of religion in the middle east, is simply not facing the reality of the situration.

Modern day Muslem controlled societies range from the middle east through Africa into Malaysia and Indonesia and the Philippines, has a foothold in Canada and if rife and rampant throughout Europe.

Those who cannot see the approacing conflict between the Muslim East and the Christian West are simply wearing blinders to avoid reality.

Amicus

 

[Guest]

. . . .

 

[oggbashan]

The rulers of Cordoba BOUGHT the church. They used it for both Muslim and Christian worship until the numbers of Muslims required an enlargement of the Mosque.

It is now a CHRISTIAN Cathedral that respects the Muslim architecture.

The Muslim rulers of Cordoba and Andalusia did not expect Christians to become Muslims. Christians held offices in the state.

It was some time after the reconquest that Spain expected all Muslims to become Christian, or leave, and used the Inquisition to severely punish any who showed any sign of reverting to Islam.

The Mosque at Cordoba, if it symbolised anything other than the number of worshippers at the time it was built, was an example of a Muslim state that tolerated and protected Christians.

Og

 

[cloudy]

The Mosque at Cordoba, if it symbolised anything other than the number of worshippers at the time it was built, was an example of a Muslim state that tolerated and protected Christians.

Og

Something that the Christian rulers who took over failed miserably to do in return. In fact, they were so intolerant that they required all Muslims to either convert or leave.

If people want to refer to history, they could at least do it honestly, like Og.