Mosque at Ground Zero

[Boxlicker101]

Ummm I'm going to call BULLSHIT on most of what ami and other conservative pussies have been whining about. I'm an AMERICAN MUSLIM. I know what I want. Religious freedom.

Most of what you have said about Islam is complete BULLSHIT. Sharia law only applies to Muslims NOT non-Muslims; its kind of like claiming that Jews want to force kosher foods on you. My people never even had the Caliphate really because we had the Imamate; we don't care about secular power at all. And we've never really made a huge effort to convert our neighbors let alone the world because we've been a persecuted minority for most of our history!

I have no problem with a Mosque at ground zero because this is AMERICA! I support freedom of speech and private property. If you don't like it then DON'T PATRONIZE the Mosque. DO you know how many of the victims of 9-11 were Muslim? I mean American Muslims? Do you even know how many of us there are in this country?

You conservative fascists get your panties in a knot because we don't believe in Christianity. We don't care about your religion or status or culture. All we want is the respect to practice our own religion in peace. You already believe in God so why should I care about whether you are Muslim or not? Quite frankly you sound like a prick anyway but we don't believe people go to hell for following another faith. Unlike you.

America's demographics are changing. Deal with it. I've been a minority here for a long time. You WASPs will be too one day. Things change. It just means you'll loose a little status.

I hope you know this is much more than a mosque under proposal. If it were just a mosque, there would probably not be much of an issue, but this is a 13 story cultural center which, I suppose, includes a mosque.

If you look at my Post 86, there is a link to an organization that wants a world-wide caliphate. This is too large a group to be called a fringe, and there are other goups with similar aims. They want to make Sharia the law of the land they want to conquer and they want to outlaw other faiths.

You said you were never part of the caliphate. It ceased to exist long ago, but once ruled from The Iberian Peninsula to what is now Pakistan and parts of India. Do your ancestors come from that area?

I know there were Muslims killed in the World Trade Center. I would guess there are about a million or so Muslims in the USA, but that is strictly a guess. I have never thought about it much. I see women and girls sometimes, whom I assume to be Muslims because of their head scarves. I don't worry about it one way or another. I would have no way of knowing the religion of a man, unless that man were dressed in a way peculiar to that religion, nor would I care.

Most of the people on this forum aren't particularly Christians either. Most of us are Atheists or Agnostics. This cultural center is not seen as an affront to Christianity; it is seen more of an "In your face, Infidels" gesture, if it is seen as anything. In other words, an affront to the USA, not to Christianity.

WASPS are a minority even now. Protestants, at least professing ones, are a majority, and whites are a majority, but most white people are not Anglo-Saxon. That ethnicity may be a plurality, but it is not even close to being a majority.

 

[Pure]

to box and other scare mongers

Originally Posted by Katyusha
No. There's a specific sect of Islam that wants to bring the world under their umbrella. There's a specific sect that's fanatical to the point of murder and destruction.

And the same can be said of any group of people anywhere in the world. They ALL have their lunatic fringe.[...]
It just isn't so.
---

[box] Have you ever heard of any Islamic sect disavowing the goal of a worldwide caliphate? Here is what one group thinks: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2003/11/ne...and-jihad.html

I can go back and google "worlewide caliphate' and find many other examples.

What is the Christian group you mentioned that wants to rule the world? Personally, I have never heard of one, but there might be such a group. How about the equivalent Jewish group?
----

pure: Katyusha is correct. You, like our Randist, are ignorant.

Christians who want world dominion (rule) by their religion are hardly scarce: here are some links to 'dominionists'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism

and "reconstructionists"; the latter wish to the US gov't to enact and follow biblical law (a bit like Calvin).

i've appended some excerpts.

document on the worldly "kingdom" by a coalition group:
http://www.churchcouncil.org/Reformation_net/COR_Docs/Christian_Worldview_Kingdom_God.pdf

World Net Daily:
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45486


reconstruction basic website: Rushdoony his successors: Francis Schaeffer etc.

http://chalcedon.edu/

Christian Reconstruction

The best description of the tenets of Christian Reconstruction, as espoused by Dr. R. J. Rushdoony, is found in his "Christian Manifesto"
[excerpts; not original numbering]

1. Sovereignty is an attribute of God alone, not of man nor the state. God alone is Lord or Sovereign over all things; over state, school, family, vocations, society and all things else.
2. The Bible is given as the common law of men and nations and was for most of U. S. History the common law, as Justice Story declared.
3. Civil rulers who rule without the Lord and His law word are, as Augustine said, no different than a mafia, only more powerful.
4. The state is not the government, but one form of government among many, others being the self-government of the Christian man, the family, the school, the church, vocations and society. The state is civil government, a ministry of justice.
5. The Christian man is the only true free man in all the world, and he is called to exercise dominion over all the earth.
6. Humanism is the way of death and is the essence of original sin, or man trying to be his own god.
7. All men, things, and institutions must serve God, or be judged by Him

Creeds […]

The second foundation of social order is the state. The state is the social organization of the creed, the legal structuring of the moral system of a society. The state cannot be amoral, because its every law is the codification of its basic morality. The state cannot be religiously neutral, because it is the religious organization of society in terms of law. […] The state is no less a religious organization than the church, and in some societies more so. In Christian society, church and state are both religious orders, the church as a ministry of grace and the state as a ministry of justice. In pagan society, the state takes priority as the religious order: the temple or the shrine then become aspects of the state's life and function[…]

The purpose of the state varies in terms of its religion. Basically, the state can be either messianic or ministerial, either a savior or a ministry of justice. For Biblical religion, the state is the ministry of justice; for non-Christian religions, for political religions, the state is man's savior. The two concepts are mutually exclusive, and there can be no compromise between them

Dominion

Taken from The Institutes of Biblical Law, pp. 448-452

Man was created in the image of God and commanded to subdue the earth and to have dominion over it (Gen. 1:26-27). Not only is it man's calling to exercise dominion, but it is also his nature to do so. Since God is the absolute and sovereign Lord and Creator, whose dominion is total and whose power is without limits, man, created in His image, shares in this communicable attribute of God. Man was created to exercise dominion under God and as God's appointed vicegerent over the earth. Dominion is thus a basic urge of man's nature. […]

[…]God's purpose is not the dominion of sin but the dominion of redeemed man over the earth under God. According to St. Paul, the very creation around us groans and travails, waiting for the godly dominion of the children of God (Rom. 8:19-23). Because of the fall, creation is now under the dominion of sinful man and is being laid waste by his perverted use of power. Even as the plant turns to the light, so creation turns with longing to the restored dominion of godly man. Even as dust and stones move in terms of gravity, so they move also in terms of God's purposed dominion of man over them. The people of God must therefore be schooled into the nature and requirements of godly dominion. […]

 

[manyeyedhydra]

I hope you know this is much more than a mosque under proposal. If it were just a mosque, there would probably not be much of an issue, but this is a 13 story cultural center which, I suppose, includes a mosque.

If you look at my Post 86, there is a link to an organization that wants a world-wide caliphate. This is too large a group to be called a fringe, and there are other goups with similar aims. They want to make Sharia the law of the land they want to conquer and they want to outlaw other faiths.

These statements are not connected in any way or form, yet a casual relationship is implied by having the second follow the first. It's these kind of dishonest tricks that really bug me about a lot of the arguments that come from the right.

They have the same relevance to each other as the following two statements:

Barack Obama is a Christian and, as president of the United States, has access to codes required to launch nuclear weapons.

Some sects of Christianity would like to start a nuclear war as they believe it will trigger the rapture.

 

[Pure]

re box's guess

box I would guess there are about a million or so Muslims in the USA,

pure:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_numb.htm

most estimates for US muslims are in the 2-5 million range. the former is less than 1% and the latter about 2% of the American population. the majority might be 'cultural', i.e. non mosque attending.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

US Christian population (at least nominal) is likely about 75% of the total. About two thirds of these are protestant.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

JAGGED

You have the same idiotic delusion everyone has: You demand the world march to your tune while denying the same perogative to everyone else. The man with the largest gun wins.

 

[djserani]

THe only problem I have with "Christian" estimates is that "Christian" is such a broad term and unfortunately encompasses a lot of folks with VASTLY different views on religion.

But it's hard to separate a lot of those out. :/ (For instance, I'm considered 'Christian', but I don't fit in with most of the accepted "denominations" and, so, to be lumped in with many of them is...frustrating.)

ANYway...

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
I hope you know this is much more than a mosque under proposal. If it were just a mosque, there would probably not be much of an issue, but this is a 13 story cultural center which, I suppose, includes a mosque.

If you look at my Post 86, there is a link to an organization that wants a world-wide caliphate. This is too large a group to be called a fringe, and there are other goups with similar aims. They want to make Sharia the law of the land they want to conquer and they want to outlaw other faiths.

These statements are not connected in any way or form, yet a casual relationship is implied by having the second follow the first. It's these kind of dishonest tricks that really bug me about a lot of the arguments that come from the right.

They have the same relevance to each other as the following two statements:

Barack Obama is a Christian and, as president of the United States, has access to codes required to launch nuclear weapons.

Some sects of Christianity would like to start a nuclear war as they believe it will trigger the rapture.

The only connection between the two paragraphs is they were a response to something somebody else posted. I can constuct my posts anyway I please.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

The only connection between the two paragraphs is they were a response to something somebody else posted. I ca constuct my posts anyway I please.

You can, but you shouldn't complain when somebody calls you out and drives a bulldozer over an argument constructed from such ropey logic.

Give me evidence that the same Muslim groups involved in building the ground zero mosque also have intentions to forcibly convert America to a Caliphate and I might take your side. Otherwise your comments are just noise.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
The only connection between the two paragraphs is they were a response to something somebody else posted. I can constuct my posts anyway I please.

You can, but you shouldn't complain when somebody calls you out and drives a bulldozer over an argument constructed from such ropey logic.

Give me evidence that the same Muslim groups involved in building the ground zero mosque also have intentions to forcibly convert America to a Caliphate and I might take your side. Otherwise your comments are just noise.

I was merely refuting a statement somebody else made, and it has nothing to do with the mosque in question.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

I was merely refuting a statement somebody else made, and it has nothing to do with the mosque in question.

If that's the case then I apologise.

It did look an awfully lot like you were trying to argue a mosque/cultural centre at that site would be a bad idea because the Muslims would use it to spread their vision of a global caliphate. I guess this isn't the case, so everything's all rosy

 

[Dragonlipz]

JAGGED

You have the same idiotic delusion everyone has: You demand the world march to your tune while denying the same perogative to everyone else. The man with the largest gun wins.

My guns are huge but they haven't won over YOU yet!!!

 

[Dragonlipz]

From the link provided by sqaurejohn:



~~~

On television tonight, "Honor Killings" common place in Muslim countries is now happening in America.

And you want this next to Ground Zero?

Amicus

You would probably love this to occur at 'Ground Zero'. Your racist, intolerant, self is showing and that black dude you lusted after back in the seventies says that you're not that good........

 

[Dragonlipz]

Aimless, random butterfiles don't have cages, m'dear, keep on fluttering about, the more you flit the more you expose...

ami

This is especially true in your case...........

 

[Dragonlipz]

[/I]

~~~

Forgive me, Katyusha, but it is just so.

The root of the evil is in the Koran or Q'uran, however you want to view it. Why so many women defend the laws of Islam that subjugate women can only reflect your subconscious desire to be utterly controlled.

Ever think of it that way?

Why else would you tout and protect a religion that is still in the Dark Ages?

Amicus

The Muslims are a lot like you...................aren't they?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I read that a group of investors plans to open a gay bar next door to the mosque...to reach out to the Muslims in the spirit of tolerance.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by amicus
[/i]

~~~

Forgive me, Katyusha, but it is just so.

The root of the evil is in the Koran or Q'uran, however you want to view it. Why so many women defend the laws of Islam that subjugate women can only reflect your subconscious desire to be utterly controlled.

Ever think of it that way?

Why else would you tout and protect a religion that is still in the Dark Ages?

Amicus

The Muslims are a lot like you...................aren't they?

Without defending Amicus, and without saying anything good about Christian fundies, I think Muslim fanatics are the worst. And I include WBC in that comparison too.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I read that a group of investors plans to open a gay bar next door to the mosque...to reach out to the Muslims in the spirit of tolerance.

That sounds great if they can do it. Maybe a strip club and a porno theater too.

 

[sr71plt]

That sounds great if they can do it. Maybe a strip club and a porno theater too.

And now I guess you'll wander around and quote this as fact without realizing that JBJ just made it up to be cute and as a fire restarter.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

And now I guess you'll wander around and quote this as fact without realizing that JBJ just made it up to be cute and as a fire restarter.

The investors wanna reach out to gay Muslims.

 

[sr71plt]

The investors wanna reach out to gay Muslims.

And I suppose that's why you were sent a prospectus.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/08/10/Gay_Bar_Proposed_Next_to_Ground_Zero_Mosque/

Read it yourself.

 

[sr71plt]

http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/08/10/Gay_Bar_Proposed_Next_to_Ground_Zero_Mosque/

Read it yourself.

Nah, it's you they want to invest in it, apparently.

 

[Boxlicker101]

And now I guess you'll wander around and quote this as fact without realizing that JBJ just made it up to be cute and as a fire restarter.

No, I won't, although I didn't realize JBJ didn't make it up. Greg Gutfield is a comedian, and I don't believe this is a serious proposal. I bet it would be an embarassment to the Muslims running the culture center if they did it, and seerved booze as well as non-alcoholic beverages.

 

[Jagged]

JAGGED

You have the same idiotic delusion everyone has: You demand the world march to your tune while denying the same perogative to everyone else. The man with the largest gun wins.

Wow that was deep and well thought out wasn't it.

 

[amicus]

The Obama administration has tagged the Imam behind the building of the Mosque at Ground Zero, as a representative of the United States to spread the word of, 'bridge building' between the Muslims and the Infidels to the Middle East,

Explain that please?

Amicus

edited to add: that particular Imam refuses to describe Hamas as a Terrorist Organization...add that to your rationalizations.