More about torture

thebullet

Rebel without applause
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Feb 25, 2003
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Is this American?
By Molly Ivins
Creators Syndicate

Thursday 02 December 2004

Austin - It is both peculiar and chilling to find
oneself discussing the problem of American torture. I
have considered support of basic human rights and
dignity so much a part of our national identity that
this feels as strange as though I'd suddenly become
Chinese or found Fidel Castro in the refrigerator.

One's first response to the report by the
International Red Cross about torture at our prison at Guantánamo is denial. "I don't want to think about it; I don't want to hear about it; we're the good guys, they're the bad guys; shut up. And besides, they attacked us first."

But our country has opposed torture since its
founding. One of our founding principles is that cruel
and unusual punishment is both illegal and wrong.
Every year, our State Department issues a report
grading other countries on their support for or
violations of human rights.

The first requirement here is that we look at what
we are doing - and not blink, not use euphemisms.
Despite the Red Cross' polite language, this is not
"tantamount to torture." It's torture. It is not
"detainee abuse." It's torture. If they were doing it
to you, you would know it was torture. It must be
hidden away, because it's happening in Cuba or
elsewhere abroad.

Yes, it's true, we did sort of know this already.
It was clear when the Abu Ghraib scandal broke in Iraq
that the infection had come from Guantánamo. The
infamous memos by Alberto Gonzales, our next attorney
general, and by John Ashcroft's "Justice" Department
pretty well laid it out.

In a way, Abu Ghraib, as bizarrely sadistic as it
was, is easier to understand than this cold,
relentless and apparently endless procedure at Gitmo.
At least Abu Ghraib took place in the context of war.
At Guantánamo, there is no threat to anyone -
Americans are not being killed or hurt there.

The Red Cross report says, "The construction of
such a system, whose stated purpose is the production
of intelligence, cannot be considered other than an
intentional system of cruel, unusual and degrading
treatment, and a form of torture."

Our country, the one you and I are responsible
for, has imprisoned these "illegal combatants" for
three years now. What the hell else do we expect to
get out of them? We don't even release their names or
say what they're charged with - whether they're
Taliban, Al Qaeda or just some farmers who happened to
get in the way (in Afghanistan, farmers and soldiers
are apt to be the same).

If this hasn't been established in three years,
when will it be? How long are they to be subjected to "humiliating acts, solitary confinement, temperature extremes, use of forced positions"?

In the name of Jesus Christ Almighty, why are
people representing our government, paid by us,
writing filth on the Korans of helpless prisoners? Is
this American? Is it Christian? What are our moral
values? Where are the clergymen on this? Speak out,
speak up.

The creepiest aspect of the Red Cross report is
the involvement of doctors and psychiatrists in
something called "Biscuit" teams. Get used to that
acronym: It stands for Behavioral Science Consultation
Team and will end up in the same category of national
shame as Wounded Knee. According to The New York
Times, Biscuit teams are "composed of psychologists
and psychological workers who advise the
interrogators." Shades of Dr. Mengele.

An earlier Red Cross report questioned whether "psychological torture" was taking place. I guess that's what you call sleep deprivation and prolonged exposure to extremely loud noises while shackled to a chair. The beatings reported would not be psychological torture. I pass over the apparently abandoned practice of sexual taunting. The Red Cross also reports a far greater incidence of mental illness caused by stress.

If you have neither the imagination nor the
empathy to envision yourself in such circumstances,
please consider why the senior commanders in the
military are so horrified by this. It's very simple.
Because, if we do this, if we break international law
and the conventions of warfare, then the same thing
can be done to American soldiers who are captured
abroad. Any country can use exactly the same lame
rationale about "enemy combatants" to torture American
troops in any kind of conflict. Then we would protest
to the Red Cross, of course.

I suppose one could argue that we're fighting
people who chop off the heads of their prisoners, so
there. Since when have we taken up Abu al-Zarqawi as a
role model? In the famous hypothetical example, you
might consider torture justified if you had a
terrorist who knew where a bomb was planted that was
about to go off. But three years later? Some people
have got to be held accountable for this, and that
would include Congress.

My question is: What are you going to do about
this? It's your country, your money, your government.
You own it, you run it, you are the board of
directors. They are doing this in your name. The
people we elect to public office do what you want them
to. Perhaps you should get in touch with them.
 
This is going to come out in terrible terminology but...

I always thought we (the US and UK) were better than this! We get on our high horses when someone is kidnapped, interrogated and killed.

What are we doing now? The same.

This is riddiculous and I'm, quite frankly, terrified for our soldiers who may be captured by enemy forces.

*sigh*
 
This is riddiculous and I'm, quite frankly, terrified for our soldiers who may be captured by enemy forces.

You are right to be afraid for our soldiers. But I'm also afraid for our citizens. I'm certain that the Bush administration has no conscience concerning things that they consider to be politically in their best interest. The torture of American citizens is just around the corner, folks.
 
thebullet said:
You are right to be afraid for our soldiers. But I'm also afraid for our citizens. I'm certain that the Bush administration has no conscience concerning things that they consider to be politically in their best interest. The torture of American citizens is just around the corner, folks.

Is it too late to cancel my plane tickets?
 
People wonder why the anti-Bush people were so devastated when we lost the election: this is it. This is what we were afraid would happen. It wasn't just about politics, it was about the soul of America and what we stand for.

It's just shameful.

---dr.M.
 
Do something about it!!!

Go here and write your rep:

http://www.house.gov/writerep/

It's fast and easy and it won't get you in trouble (yet)

If you suck at writing letters, just cut and paste this:

I object in the strongest terms to the use of torture in the interrogation of prisoners at Guantanomo or Abu Ghraib for whatever reason.

I demand you do whatever's in your power to stop this flagrant abuse of human rights and compel the US to honor the provisions of the Geneva Accords on the treatment of prisoners of war.


---dr.M.
 
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Do something about it!!!

Go here and write your rep:

http://www.house.gov/writerep/

Hey, Dr M. we do that all the time. Our rep and our Senators look at us as if we were a pimple on their collective asses.
I'm not saying it won't work 100% of the time, and maybe we should keep the pressure on to let these rubber-stamp fools know what the people really think of their pussy-like ways.

In my experience, it doesn't work. But like the old joke about the guy who was having a heart attack and someone in the crowd yelled "Give him an enema!" When asked why, the guy said, "It wouldn't hurt."
 
An interesting view on where the drive for this originates from.

War on Evil

And time for my favourite quote.

What you resist, you become.
 
"All that's necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

I forget who said that, but it's something worth remembering.

---dr.M.
 
dr_mabeuse said:
"All that's necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
I forget who said that, but it's something worth remembering.---dr.M.
Someone misquoting, I think.

“The hottest seats in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great moral crises, choose to do nothing.” – Dante Alighieri

“All that is essential for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing”. – Edmund Burke


So, a saying something like that has been around, at least, since the 13th Century.

Good advice only seems to be acceptable in world events when accompanied by the most swords, muskets and bombs.
 
And if it isn't torture being conducted by americans on US territory, it is torture being conducted by US allies. Have you heard of the N379P?

It is (according to this report from a normally very credible news report program in Sweden) a small jet plane with a special militaty unit that transports terrorist suspects to allied countries like Egypt and Uzbekistan where torture is not illegal (or commonly practiced anyway), and have them "interrogated" there.

And we swedes are once again reduced to the fucking cowards we were during the WWII. Why haven't our government raised hell over this? We sure as hell would had 10 or 20 years ago.Embarrassing.

Here is the beginning of a translated transcript from the documentary (is theat the right word? Report story...you know what I mean)


Kalla Fakta, Swedish TV4:
--------------------------

Disguised American agents imprison and humiliate prisoners on Swedish soil.
This Spring Kalla Fakta revealed how two Egyptians were brutally removed from Sweden to face torture in Egypt. We have of course investigated the case.

Tonight we can reveal that the Swedish government has covered up witness statements about torture before the UN Committee against Torture, which is now investigating the event.

But we can also reveal that what happened at Bromma airport wasn’t a singular event. In a unique look at the event, we can tonight for the first time show how extensive the United State’s illegal man hunt has been since the terror attacks on September 11th, 2001.

The disguised agents who landed at Bromma airport belonged to a secret commando unit that answers directly to the Pentagon, and whose task it is to retrieve people who in some way have come to the American intelligence community’s attention and move them to countries where they can be tortured into giving up information.
This secret commando unit has executed at least 72 missions all over the world. The same plane that landed at Bromma airport flies non-stop between destinations such as Cairo, Kabul and Guantànamo in Cuba.

The rest of the trascript is here. (It's for some dumb reason a Word file.)

--------------------------
 
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And a digested English article on the subject:

US accused of ‘torture flights’
Stephen Grey

AN executive jet is being used by the American intelligence agencies to fly terrorist suspects to countries that routinely use torture in their prisons.

The movements of the Gulfstream 5 leased by agents from the United States defence department and the CIA are detailed in confidential logs obtained by The Sunday Times which cover more than 300 flights.

Countries with poor human rights records to which the Americans have delivered prisoners include Egypt, Syria and Uzbekistan, according to the files. The logs have prompted allegations from critics that the agency is using such regimes to carry out “torture by proxy” — a charge denied by the American government.

...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1357699,00.html
 
Joe Wordsworth said:
I wonder if torture is ever justifiable.
Morals aside, is it even effective in an interrogation? If I beat someone hard and long enough, they will confess to whatever it is they think I want to hear, to make me stop. But it that the truth?

...says the guy with the handle Liar. Oh well.

#L
 
Originally posted by Liar
Morals aside, is it even effective in an interrogation? If I beat someone hard and long enough, they will confess to whatever it is they think I want to hear, to make me stop. But it that the truth?

...says the guy with the handle Liar. Oh well.

#L

Torture is pretty effective. We did some work on it in the Psych Department, a study of it really. People often think of torture as the Hollywood "some guy strapped to a chair, screaming in pain and willing to say anything to get them to stop", but that's not really how it works.

Effective torture takes time. It takes trust. It isn't that the person says what you want... its that the person gives up on believing that it will matter for him. If you put the screws to someone, will they confess to things that they didn't do? Sure.

If you deprive someone of human interaction, build up a level of trust with an attendant or a guard or counsellor, introduce positive reinforcement with regards to successive approximations of information that is patently false or just indesireable and encourage the other variety.

People break.

We've done it, academically, by acceident a number of times.
 
They did it wholesale in North Korea. Our military has wanted the "brainwashing" techniques ever since. It was something in the enemy arsenal which wasn't yet in our own, at the time. The science and art of it is long known, now.
 
Joe Wordsworth said:
I wonder if torture is ever justifiable.

No, it isn't. It is the most extreme form of a priori investigation. There is no presumption of innocence. There is no habeas corpus. There is no one on your side.

Torture is always made under the assumption that the person is guilty and we now merely have to get him (or her) to admit it. Which they do almost always do. I know of one case where a man died under torture, at the hands of Klaus Barbie, with out giving away a thing.

Maybe the idea should be personalised. What would you think if it was you getting the cattle prod shoved up your ass?
 
Originally posted by rgraham666
It is the most extreme form of a priori investigation.

This... I don't get. How?

Torture is always made under the assumption that the person is guilty and we now merely have to get him (or her) to admit it. Which they do almost always do. I know of one case where a man died under torture, at the hands of Klaus Barbie, with out giving away a thing.

I don't know. It may be that its made under the assumption that they might be guilty and it would be most benificial to have certitude. That's a tough one.

Maybe the idea should be personalised. What would you think if it was you getting the cattle prod shoved up your ass?

Not really a relavent question, I don't think. I don't want the cop pulling me over if I am speeding. I don't want the jail term from committing a crime, even if I've done it. I wouldn't want to be tortured... but my desire for it not happening shouldn't be the key factor in that equation.
 
Joe Wordsworth said:
Torture is pretty effective. We did some work on it in the Psych Department, a study of it really. People often think of torture as the Hollywood "some guy strapped to a chair, screaming in pain and willing to say anything to get them to stop", but that's not really how it works.

Effective torture takes time. It takes trust. It isn't that the person says what you want... its that the person gives up on believing that it will matter for him. If you put the screws to someone, will they confess to things that they didn't do? Sure.

If you deprive someone of human interaction, build up a level of trust with an attendant or a guard or counsellor, introduce positive reinforcement with regards to successive approximations of information that is patently false or just indesireable and encourage the other variety.

People break.

We've done it, academically, by acceident a number of times.

I would think that academic torture is somewhat less real than actual torture.
 
Joe W. said:
but my desire for it not happening shouldn't be the key factor in that equation.

Joe some things are not ammenable to philosphical discussions. You are trying to apply philosphical guidlelines to some of mankind's most reprehensible activities.

Joe, it is sophistry, pure and simple. You will never be able to use vague philosophically-based arguments to convince anyone other than a person with no heart and fewer brains that torture has its place in human society.
 
thebullet said:
. . . You will never be able to . . . convince anyone other than a person with no heart and fewer brains that torture has its place in human society.
Which does, of course, explain why this administration is so hellbent upon employing it, doesn't it!
 
Joe W. said:
Effective torture takes time. It takes trust. It isn't that the person says what you want... its that the person gives up on believing that it will matter for him. If you put the screws to someone, will they confess to things that they didn't do? Sure.

Joe, what the fuck are you talking about? You sit there dreaming of brainwashing and good=guy bad-guy cops while there are people in American prisons and prisoner of war camps who are being held without charge and having broomsticks stuck up their asses, accosted by huge German Shepards, made to perform what to them are dispicable acts. You just don't get it, Joe.
 
Originally posted by Goldie Munro
I would think that academic torture is somewhat less real than actual torture.

The Stanford Prison Study... Little Albert... I agree its somewhat less. My point wasn't that it was equal, but its an indicator that it works.

Originally posted by thebullet
Joe some things are not ammenable to philosphical discussions. You are trying to apply philosphical guidlelines to some of mankind's most reprehensible activities.

You'll have to forgive me, but in the Courtrooms that things like this are decided; and the reports that authorize operative use... the philosophical justifications are essential. In the end, the decision isn't "We should use torture"... it's "We have decided that its ethical to do so, based on key arguments". Man's most reprehensible activities are decided with philosophy. That, for better or worse, is a truth.

Joe, it is sophistry, pure and simple. You will never be able to use vague philosophically-based arguments to convince anyone other than a person with no heart and fewer brains that torture has its place in human society.

Its Reason, and Reason has no place with Sophistry. Its not rhetoric or persuasion, its analysis. Will I ever be able to convince someone that torture has a place using it? I can't answer that. I don't think anyone can. That is asking for future prediction and anyone whose going to say they know is either ignorant or fraudulent. Better question is "will someone be able to argue to rational satisfaction, on people with heart and brains, that torture has a place?"

It seems as though that has already been done.
 
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