Moral Dilemmas

[SweetErika]

I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this one, but recently I've come to a place where long-standing beliefs conflicted somewhat with current needs. It feels hypocritical: I'm making an exception for myself for one reason (though I feel the same about others doing it for the same reason), yet still deem the act 'wrong' for other reasons. I'm left wondering how to reconcile the differences and where I really stand on the issue.

Anyway, situations like this are common and come up for nearly everyone at some point, I think. What moral dilemmas or conflicts in beliefs have/might you or someone you know (hypotheticals and 'friends' are fine) been faced with? How did/would you deal with them? I should probably point out I'm seeking discussion, not advice for myself on this specific situation.

Other questions and discussion on the general topic are most welcome.

 

[Melesse]

Well...lol. What I did wasn't a one time thing lol.

I have always prided myself on my honesty. I never cheated in school, I don't tell lies at all to get myself out of trouble. If I do something wrong, I own up and take the rap.

Except when it comes to sex.

Every girl I have dated I have cheated on, and either lied through omission or straight up lied to about it. Why? I dunno, for some reason when it comes to getting some, my mind just takes a completely different track, bypassing that part of my mind altogether. I'm a helluva nice guy, polite, intelligent, fun to talk to, I keep secrets extremely well...you just cannot trust me when it comes to sex.

The really sick part is that I recognize the hypocrisy, I see it, I even sort of understand where it comes from, but it doesn't bother me one bit. I lie to get myself out of trouble (non-sexual) and I agonize over it for days. I lied to a gf once about another girl and I never gave it another thought. Did not bother me at all.

I have spent quite alot of time analyzing it since I noticed this about myself a couple years ago. I find myself a fascinating subject. I haven't figured out how to deal with it yet.

Melesse

 

[only_more_so]

I know how I deal with it... Poorly!

Not to go into details but I went against a long held belief on a few occasions, and each time it has caused me long lasting angst. Of course, I am the sort of person that holds beliefs strongly and has a spectacular memory especially when it comes to my own screwups.

Anyway, I think the stronger you hold the belief that you are going against the more discomfort it will cause you, not just now, but in the long run. Some people are blessed with a lack of self-recrimination, others are not. So that is how some people act hypocritcally, but don't even seem to realize it while others suffer pangs from their actions.

So the question is which are you?

 

[SweetErika]

Well...lol. What I did wasn't a one time thing lol.

I have always prided myself on my honesty. I never cheated in school, I don't tell lies at all to get myself out of trouble. If I do something wrong, I own up and take the rap.

Except when it comes to sex.

Every girl I have dated I have cheated on, and either lied through omission or straight up lied to about it. Why? I dunno, for some reason when it comes to getting some, my mind just takes a completely different track, bypassing that part of my mind altogether. I'm a helluva nice guy, polite, intelligent, fun to talk to, I keep secrets extremely well...you just cannot trust me when it comes to sex.

The really sick part is that I recognize the hypocrisy, I see it, I even sort of understand where it comes from, but it doesn't bother me one bit. I lie to get myself out of trouble (non-sexual) and I agonize over it for days. I lied to a gf once about another girl and I never gave it another thought. Did not bother me at all.

I have spent quite alot of time analyzing it since I noticed this about myself a couple years ago. I find myself a fascinating subject. I haven't figured out how to deal with it yet.

Melesse

Interesting. Thanks for your honest reply, BTW. Have you figured out if you believe there are exceptions, or reasons it's okay to lie about sex/cheating? What do you think when you hear about others cheating...is your first impression that they shouldn't do that?

 

[Eilan]

I need to think about this one.

 

[SweetErika]

I know how I deal with it... Poorly!

Not to go into details but I went against a long held belief on a few occasions, and each time it has caused me long lasting angst. Of course, I am the sort of person that holds beliefs strongly and has a spectacular memory especially when it comes to my own screwups.

Yep, I'm that way too. Most of the time I see that as a good thing: I remember it vividly, still feel guilty, and generally don't repeat the mistake. This recent situation is not in the "screwup" category though, so it's more a matter of being conflicted on if I should still draw a line between right and wrong based on purpose.

Anyway, I think the stronger you hold the belief that you are going against the more discomfort it will cause you, not just now, but in the long run. Some people are blessed with a lack of self-recrimination, others are not. So that is how some people act hypocritcally, but don't even seem to realize it while others suffer pangs from their actions.

So the question is which are you?

I really like how you put this. Do you think a lack of self-recrimination is really a blessing?

 

[only_more_so]

I really like how you put this. Do you think a lack of self-recrimination is really a blessing?

In some ways it is. Why beat yourself up over something that no one else even remembers? The lesson learned factor is often eclipsed by the punishment factor. It would be nice to only have enough recrimination to learn the lesson and not to still suffer.

Everyone lives by their own moral compass, whether I or anyone else agrees or not. My compass is much less forgiving about deviations which strictly restricts what I do and don't do. Unfortunately many of my natural inclinations are to do what morally I won't allow myself to do. This conflict creates strife. There are other people who have even stricter moral compasses, but seemingly have no inclination, or even understanding of the things they are missing out on.

 

[bobsgirl]

In the past 18 months I have dealt with some long-held personal rules about temptation and finding fulfillment outside of marriage. Whether I did or didn't isn't the point. The point is that I believed looking outside your marriage for whatever it was you were missing, was wrong. Period. And I was pretty much of a tight ass about it. I had never even been tempted before in all 28 years of my marriage. But...

You know, it's very difficult and painful to realize that what was once true, now isn't. I understand now, really understand the why of married people looking outside their marriage. I know I will never judge anyone by that particular yardstick again.

Don't know if I answered your question, but damn, this is a great topic.

 

[TBKahuna123]

I consistently have a hard time reconciling my religious beliefs, or at least the teachings of the Catholic Church. with my sex life. See I understand the reasonings behind a lot of the church's views of sex, but I don't necessarily agree with them. It's been a moral dilema because I had to decide if I truly didn't agree with the strict interpretation or if I was just making excuses for my desires. Even now this comes up occasionally.

Here on Lit, I struggle all the time giving advice on use of condoms. Again, the church takes a stance against birth control, and I feel I have a moral repsonsibility to follow those teachings as I am part of that church. However, I also feel it would be morally unethical to not counsel young people about Safe Sex, which ultimately, means condoms. This is a moral dilema that I face here a lot, and I have to dealt with it by weighing the choices. I've decided that I can live with compromising my beliefs easier than I can live with the possibility of comrpomising some young person's health. Or potentially Life.

 

[Quoll]

I consistently have a hard time reconciling my religious beliefs, or at least the teachings of the Catholic Church. with my sex life. See I understand the reasonings behind a lot of the church's views of sex, but I don't necessarily agree with them. It's been a moral dilema because I had to decide if I truly didn't agree with the strict interpretation or if I was just making excuses for my desires. Even now this comes up occasionally.

Here on Lit, I struggle all the time giving advice on use of condoms. Again, the church takes a stance against birth control, and I feel I have a moral repsonsibility to follow those teachings as I am part of that church. However, I also feel it would be morally unethical to not counsel young people about Safe Sex, which ultimately, means condoms. This is a moral dilema that I face here a lot, and I have to dealt with it by weighing the choices. I've decided that I can live with compromising my beliefs easier than I can live with the possibility of comrpomising some young person's health. Or potentially Life.

As someone who was Bred, Born and Brought up as a catholic, and someone who has grown to loathe the (IMO) hypocrisy and control of all religions, I believe your interpretation is what it should be all about, caring about people, not ourselves. *closing the lid on that particular box*

 

[Cathleen]

I have had many changes in my 'hard rules' over the years. There were behaviors that I knew I'd never need to worry about - I'd just never do them. I looked suspect at those who participated; self-righteousness was an easy way to live, because I knew I'd never be so weak, so careless, etc.

HA! What I didn't know was I hadn't lived long enough to find myself in positions that I never imagined. Being human means one definite truth, that we are perfectly imperfect. No matter how moral or mighty I thought I was, over time I found myself in situations that surprised me. Sometimes I was quite conscious of my behaviors or motives, other times it was circumstance.

I think motives matter... being painfully truthful about my motives helps me see how or why I was in the situation I found myself. Many times caring about others puts me into situations that surprise me. Learning that there are times I support behaviors I never would have dreamed for myself or my friends and loved ones.

I guess it's about time, looking back I see experiences that didn't conform to my standards, living takes flexibility and the openness to see there are many more answers then yes or no.

 

[Cathleen]

As someone who was Bred, Born and Brought up as a catholic, and someone who has grown to loathe the (IMO) hypocrisy and control of all religions, I believe your interpretation is what it should be all about, caring about people, not ourselves. *closing the lid on that particular box*

Totally - life is about people, helping and being helped. Religion is man made and full of hard lines. Life is all about curves.

 

[Quoll]

Even though Cate has pretty much summed it up for me I'll post anyway, I need the practice.
Depression
Suicide
Child rearing
Marriage
Work
All of these are things that I used to have very strong opinions about and probably still do (just not the same ones).
I guess it's the walk a mile in my shoes thing, until you are actually faced with having to make the choice of having to deal with something, it is relatively easy to stay strong to our ideals, life unfortunately/fortunately has a way of making us rethink our position on many things, personally I see it as growth, change is a learning experience, we may not always like the lesson learnt, but as Ned Kelly once said "Such is Life."

 

[Cathleen]

Kind of like we need to test those beliefs. It's easy to have beliefs but when I take them for a test drive, the course isn't layed out in an oval, it's unseen and needs to be taken as it comes. I have been humbled many times in life, I see it as a good thing.

 

[wicked woman]

I guess it's about time, looking back I see experiences that didn't conform to my standards, living takes flexibility and the openness to see there are many more answers then yes or no.

Cate, once again your pondering has resulted in something wonderful.


Hundreds of times! Even as far back as growing up in a family that never thought of me as 'just' a girl...so while I hoped to have children, planned on going back to a satisfying career after. Had no idea that those maternal hormones would be know 'better' and have me yearning to stay home with my babies.


I think I face my dilemmas by having an open mind to start with. If we live in a black and white world we face fewer of them. I rationalize a lot...contemplate trying the new way on for size...research...discuss...check out my gut feelings (the head versus the heart thing)...then sometimes actually try it on for size to see how it fits...re-evaluate. Often end up expanding my horizons. Don't think I'm going to hell yet...but then who knows?

 

[kerkri04]

I also face a delema and welcome advice.

I've been married 35+ years.Following a total hysterectomy 15 years ago my wife lost all intrest in sex, intimacy, and even affection. This is killing me and has caused a lot of tension in our marriage.

Shes told me I should find someone else for my sexual needs. She even pointed out that several former presidents lived like this. I don't want to break up our marriage.My delemmas:

Would it be wrong?

How do I find another woman who would be satisfied with mainly just a physical relationship?

Would that be fair to the other woman?

 

[timberwolf05]

Moral Dilemmas ?

if ya dont have morals ya dont have an issue

do whatever ya want in life coz ya only got ONE shot

make it good

 

[Norajane]

I don't know if this is a Moral Dilemma, but last night I found myself replying to a thread in the AH about an essay one of the authors wrote about menstruation and how women in our society felt about it.

I didn't actually disagree with her general premise, but some of the comments in her thread really made me feel like she thought all of us women were deluded and pity-worthy because we didn't worship the moon goddess each month, or something like that. So even though I thought I would never make any disparaging remarks about a woman's views about menstruation, I found myself telling her she was being condescending and patronizing to the rest of us.

And like I said, I don't even really disagree with her! I think menstrual huts are great, at least the online versions I've been involved with. I feel like I've been a bad sister in the sisterhood.

 

[bobsgirl]

... I feel like I've been a bad sister in the sisterhood.

Not in our sisterhood!

 

[Norajane]

Not in our sisterhood!

 

[eudaemonia]

My delemmas:

Would it be wrong?

Try asking the question this way, "Would it be wrong, for me (given the hand I've been dealt)?" I do think once you've answer this question, whether to answer the other two will be settled.

How do I find another woman who would be satisfied with mainly just a physical relationship?

Would that be fair to the other woman?

See above reply.

You really are caught between a rock and hard place here. This is probably one of the most excruciating of human dilemmas one could face. I wish you all the best.

 

[SweetErika]

Wow! I need time to digest all of the great thoughts here! Bobsgirl, TBK, kerk, WW, Norajane...thanks for your candor, and I think you all gave great examples of that internal struggle and reformation of beliefs.

I have had many changes in my 'hard rules' over the years. There were behaviors that I knew I'd never need to worry about - I'd just never do them. I looked suspect at those who participated; self-righteousness was an easy way to live, because I knew I'd never be so weak, so careless, etc.

HA! What I didn't know was I hadn't lived long enough to find myself in positions that I never imagined. Being human means one definite truth, that we are perfectly imperfect. No matter how moral or mighty I thought I was, over time I found myself in situations that surprised me. Sometimes I was quite conscious of my behaviors or motives, other times it was circumstance.

I think motives matter... being painfully truthful about my motives helps me see how or why I was in the situation I found myself. Many times caring about others puts me into situations that surprise me. Learning that there are times I support behaviors I never would have dreamed for myself or my friends and loved ones.

I guess it's about time, looking back I see experiences that didn't conform to my standards, living takes flexibility and the openness to see there are many more answers then yes or no.

Cate, beautifully said, as always. You really ought to record all of this wisdom in book form, my friend. Everything here resonates with me, and certainly helps me figure out this current situation. I'm writing down the bold parts for the future...they seem to have a way of escaping me when I need them most.

All of these are things that I used to have very strong opinions about and probably still do (just not the same ones).
I guess it's the walk a mile in my shoes thing, until you are actually faced with having to make the choice of having to deal with something, it is relatively easy to stay strong to our ideals, life unfortunately/fortunately has a way of making us rethink our position on many things, personally I see it as growth, change is a learning experience, we may not always like the lesson learnt, but as Ned Kelly once said "Such is Life."

How true, quoll. I've walked many, many miles in the past few years, an my beliefs have changed dramatically with every single one. I used to think I knew what I'd do in those situations, and in some cases being so certain and planning so well has caused me A LOT of pain and guilt. Now I usually just throw my hands up and say, "I won't know until I'm there, and I'll do the best I can at that time."

These dilemmas/trials/whatever really have a way of making us more empathetic, compassionate beings, don't they?

 

[Melesse]

Interesting. Thanks for your honest reply, BTW. Have you figured out if you believe there are exceptions, or reasons it's okay to lie about sex/cheating? What do you think when you hear about others cheating...is your first impression that they shouldn't do that?

Mixed bag on that. I know academically it's wrong to cheat and lie about it, but I suffer no moral pangs. Additionally, I don't condemn others that cheat, b/c I know how easy it is to just put certain things away in a little box and ignore them for awhile.

While I personally believe that humans are polyamorous, and marriage is a silly institution, I think those beliefs are after the fact justifications. I think the real reason is one of excitement. I've never been able to stay interested in a girl sexually for more then a month. I still love/like them, but I get bored and wander after that, sometimes before. Most of the reason is my fetishes and interests.

PLain old sex is exciting the first time or two with a new partner, due to it's newness, but then I need something more.

We all have weaknesses, we just need to learn to face them, and understand them, and either embrace them or fight them.

Melesse

 

[Eilan]

I don't know if this is a Moral Dilemma, but last night I found myself replying to a thread in the AH about an essay one of the authors wrote about menstruation and how women in our society felt about it.

I haven't read the essay in question yet, but I did pop into the thread. Interesting. . .

Even as far back as growing up in a family that never thought of me as 'just' a girl...so while I hoped to have children, planned on going back to a satisfying career after. Had no idea that those maternal hormones would be know 'better' and have me yearning to stay home with my babies.

This hit me pretty hard as well, and though I continued to work, it caused problems in my first marriage. I'd always thought I'd do the career mom thing, but I missed being with my babies. I resented having to work, and my ex resented that I wanted to stay home.

Because I was the first member of my family to go to college, people expected a lot of me, and in terms of career choices, I haven't lived up to those expectations. According to some of my family members, I've wasted my education, even though I'm of the opinion that education isn't wasted.

A little more on topic. . .

Yes, there have been things that I've said I'd never do because they're morally "incorrect" (or whatever). When my ex cheated on me, I said that I'd never get involved with someone who was married because I didn't want to play a part in hurting someone else the way that I was hurt.

I met my husband when my ex and I had been separated for about 8 months. My hubby was still married to his ex; they were still living together, in fact. I pursued the relationship anyway. During their marriage, my husband's ex had cheated on him with at least three people. At the time that we met, she'd been seeing this guy for about a year--and had pretty much cut off all contact with my husband because she felt that she'd be "cheating" on her BF. She'd told my husband that she was going to move out as soon as she could afford to do so, and in the meantime, he should start seeing other people.

Several months passed, and he was too depressed to date; eventually, though, he felt that he was ready to move on, and we met shortly thereafter. Incidentally, my husband's ex was devastated when we started seeing each other, even though she'd told him that he should move on, and even though she was still with her BF. While there's a part of me that says, "Fuck her--she hurt **** many times while they were together. Why shouldn't he be happy?" there's also a part of me that feels a little guilty because I contributed to her hurt feelings. Obviously, though, I feel a lot less guilty now than I did almost five years ago.

I suppose that some people might consider that my husband and I were both both cheating on our respective spouses, but I'm not sure that I see it that way. I suppose we were--after all, we were fucking each other while we were both (legally) married to other people.

And then there was a one-time threesome situation that my hubby and I had with someone who was married. I knew that he was married. I knew that the marriage was in serious trouble, and I justified my actions by saying that since this guy's divorce was inevitable, it didn't matter what I did. But it ended up mattering. To me. I thought I could handle it, but I couldn't. And it bothers me to this day.

 

[Cathleen]

<snip>

Several months passed, and he was too depressed to date; eventually, though, he felt that he was ready to move on, and we met shortly thereafter. Incidentally, my husband's ex was devastated when we started seeing each other, even though she'd told him that he should move on, and even though she was still with her BF. While there's a part of me that says, "Fuck her--she hurt **** many times while they were together. Why shouldn't he be happy?" there's also a part of me that feels a little guilty because I contributed to her hurt feelings. Obviously, though, I feel a lot less guilty now than I did almost five years ago.

This doesn't surprise me. I've found myself rationalizing my behaviors but when I'm on the other side I feel the pain and then learn I was rationalizing - it's in my face and can't be denied then. My reaction to that knowledge hurts inside and being human I want out of pain as quickly as possible - even in the face of duplicity.

<snip>

And then there was a one-time threesome situation that my hubby and I had with someone who was married. I knew that he was married. I knew that the marriage was in serious trouble, and I justified my actions by saying that since this guy's divorce was inevitable, it didn't matter what I did. But it ended up mattering. To me. I thought I could handle it, but I couldn't. And it bothers me to this day.

I understand how you're still bothered today, Eilan, very easily I understand. It can take a lot of time to release ourselves, to forgive ourselves for the part we played in a hurtful situation. I am facing that today. I have faced it before too. That is what hurts the most... even though this situation is different in many ways, the feeling of self-loathing is there.

This being human thing is tough stuff. At least for me. I know some friends will say I'm too hard on myself or examine my every action too much but having done the opposite when I was younger, I prefer my self-examination. I think it makes me a better person, just for me.

Today I fell and once again I'm humbled, once again I've learned something about myself - that helps me. One absolute truth I've learned in life... not one of us gets through life unscathed.

~long sigh~