MILFs, Lolitas, Femme Fatales, Ingenues... the enduring appeal of male gaze driven female tropes

[John_Vandermeer]

I know I already started a MILFs thread a couple of weeks back...that almost came to blows. Just kidding. But I still find it an interesting observation how much fiction--in various formats--has one of a handful classic female character tropes written for the male gaze at its core: the four mentioned not being exhaustive of course but being some key ones. Even as we expect more female agency than they did, say, in the 1950s and earlier. Even as more writers and readers--female and male--push back on a few boxed stock characters. Somebody writes an interesting new take on a Lolita, or a femme fatale, or something like that, and it takes off (note a Lolita doesn't have to be a pubescent girl, a 20yo female can be one to a 40yo male. So plenty of Lolitas in Lit).

So when you look at your work objectively--and this question I might expect a different distribution of answers for male and female writers--how often do you think you have, consciously or unconsciously, used one of those tropes and made it your own? I know there will be plenty "I do not do that" answers. But honestly. And don't you love the results sometimes? Want to give examples from your stories? I know I plead guilty.

 

[SimonDoom]

It shouldn't be surprising at all. Whether or not men are "hard-wired" to gaze at women or whether it's socially ingrained, just speaking for myself and most guys I knew, by the time we're teenagers we're programmed like Pavlovian rats to respond to the sight of women. I remember the excitement caused by the arrival of the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue at the middle school library. Many men also have variations of the virgin/whore complex. They like the "good girl gone bad" trope. We're twisted in knots, psychologically, with conflicts in our expectations of the opposite sex. It can mess things up in real-world dealings with people. But it sure makes erotica fun.

It especially shouldn't be surprising that we would play with elemental themes in erotic literature because a central point of erotica is to arouse, and we're aroused (many if not most of us) by very basic, elemental things. Big breasts. Lean legs. Curves. The sway of hips. The batting of eyelashes. A long look. To this day I have memories of how, for instance, a girl looked at me at a middle school dance. Memories like that inspire creation.

I've played with all these tropes, but MILFs are my go-to. As a man in my 50s I'm far more interested in women over 40 than younger women. I'm a sucker for the "nice mom next door who's letting her bad girl out" concept. A lot of that stems from personal familiarity--things like insufferably long periods standing on the sideline watching one of my kids' soccer or little league games, and glancing at one of the moms, and thinking, "I wonder what's ticking inside her?"

After I got divorced, I realized there really IS a lot more ticking than one sees on the outside.

Also, I'm a visual person so my stories often feature visual/male-gazey themes: exhibitionism, voyeurism, photography, internet exposure, etc. It never gets old.

 

[Euphony]

Most of us have stewed to prunedom in the patriarchal jacuzzi so even the ardent progressives will revert from time to time (to say nothing of a conscious choice to play with the tropes and reform)

Personal beliefs influence our fiction for sure but rarely is soapboxing the thrust of my creative energies. Mostly I am eye bleedingly bored of a trope and want to reshape it into something that captures my interest or explore something I've seen around but not really mentally milled beyond surface level "oh, I can kinda get that" status.

Writing helps me process the world around me, existentially big and tropey small so it's all in bounds.

 

[John_Vandermeer]

Many men also have variations of the virgin/whore complex. They like the "good girl gone bad" trope.

I'm a sucker for the "nice mom next door who's letting her bad girl out" concept. A lot of that stems from personal familiarity

Yes virgin/whore is definitely another top of the list one. And the "X next door" version of whatever "X" is certainly has an elemental appeal. Femme fatale next door (another way to say, "in your regular life") is my top one, but it does intersect with others every now and then, like MILF, Lolita, or virgin/whore.

 

[EmilyMiller]

So when you look at your work objectively--and this question I might expect a different distribution of answers for male and female writers--how often do you think you have, consciously or unconsciously, used one of those tropes and made it your own? I know there will be plenty "I do not do that" answers. But honestly. And don't you love the results sometimes? Want to give examples from your stories? I know I plead guilty.

As a walking, talking trope myself (petite, sexually adventurous, blonde), I find it hard to answer this question.

The closest to a MILF I’ve written (though her gravida / partum is not referenced) is Chief Officer Alvarez (also my first Latina/o character) in Coleoidphilia.

Em

 

[yowser]

Raises hand nervously, speaks in low voice.

I confess to MILF usage on a couple occasions (only once deliberately, Father.)

By all measures except score (and this is in LW so applying the standard correction factor appropriate to that category would boost it into 'Scarlet H' range easily) my most popular story involves a MILF, Suzanne. However, it turns out I wrote the character first and it turned out she was one, although that wasn't my intent. (Small town mores, playing with conservative values, daring sexuality in a close-knit community, etc.) She was a person first, then it appeared the label fit.

Second instance was conscious (five Hail Marys): a riff on a music festival infatuation. No excuses, will maybe never happen again.

 

[MrPixel]

Technically, I have a MILF as a main character in my series. But I never refer to her that way, I just have fun with her being "a mom" about certain things relative to the ensemble, especially tugging the MMC's leash from time to time (figuratively, guys). "MILF" is locker room talk, and, besides, the MMC respects the ladies more than that.

 

[ElectricBlue]

My stories tend towards older, confident, executive type corporate women, because I've worked with many over the years; or younger, vivacious women paying their way through a degree by working as a waitress in a coffee shop, again because I've met many - especially around the time I hit my pace as a writer. It really is write who you know, who you meet.

Generally speaking, my women are shorter and slim (because in real life, they're my type), or tall and slender, because they're the ones who catch my eye, especially if they know how to walk in heels, which most women don't.

This does not, however, explain my Fantastic Hotel stories, which feature a moth and a ladybeetle. But they both wear tight dresses, which might have something to do with it.

 

[TheRedChamber]

"Oh my God! Listen to me! I've turned into my father. I was so busy worrying about turning into my mother that I did not see this coming" - Rachel, Friends

Becky was a waitress. No wait, she was a librarian. But not like a bookish boring librarian. She didn't have glasses. Well, she did, but not like big librarian glasses, normal glasses - not exactly sexy but not unsexy either. Actually she'd had a few jobs. She once worked at Alton Towers for a summer. See, she's fun! She's also smart, but not, like, intimidatingly smart. And kind. Her work at the library involves her working with special needs children. But not like everyday. Only on Tuesdays when she goes round on the book mobile. Her favourite singer is Susan Vega.

Becky...actually the name Becky probably gives the wrong impression. Let's call her Lucy. No wait that's too 'I Love Lucy'. We can call her Fiona, as long as you all promise not to think of Shrek...

Anyway Fiona lost her virginity at 18 to a guy she'd been dating for a couple of months. But not like on her 18th birthday. I don't want you to think of her as cheap. Her birthday was in February and they slept together in May. It was alright - not great not terrible and they did it a few more times before they broke up. No drama, he was going to Edinburgh University and she was going to Southampton and it seemed like too much work. She studied Marine Biology. Not that she dreamt of being a mermaid or anything. She just likes tropical fish. But not to an obsessive degree.

She has breasts obviously, but it's probably best not to focus on them too much. She's not flat chested but she's not exactly Lola Ferarri either. Like, if a Peeping Tom caught a glimpse of her while she was in the changing rooms at River Island he'd be like 'Yep, those are breasts' and have a reasonably satisfying wank but it wouldn't make his list of Top Ten Peeps or anything.

So Fiona has some sex. Not as much as her friend Sophie but way more than her other friend Lucy (we can use Lucy here, I'm only going to name drop her a couple of times so whatever...) Usually Fiona will wait for the second date to have sex but she's also done it on the first date and sometimes the third or not at all. She didn't feel bad about that single one night stand but that guy turned out not to be as hot as she thought. By the way, all this information is off a body count of...erm...seven? That sounds okay for a 25 year old, right? She orgasms sometimes and not others. Hard to pin down why - a combination of factors really. Her blow-job technique is good enough that none of her boyfriends have ever complained about it.

Come to think of it, my portfolio is lacking a bit of diversity. Could we make her black? So, all that stuff above, keep all of that, don't go adding in any stereotypes or anything - no sass or attitude or enormous earrings or weave or anything and definitely don't mentally add any weight. What ever mental image you've already got just keep that. She's exactly the same only she's now Black British. Got it?

Actually maybe we should change the Susan Vega? Would it be weird if we kept it? Just hold on a second while I call a friend. Whatever you do don't click away and start to read one of those stories with those simple tropy girls...

 

[Jmanchu]

I know I already started a MILFs thread a couple of weeks back...that almost came to blows. Just kidding. But I still find it an interesting observation how much fiction--in various formats--has one of a handful classic female character tropes written for the male gaze at its core: the four mentioned not being exhaustive of course but being some key ones. Even as we expect more female agency than they did, say, in the 1950s and earlier. Even as more writers and readers--female and male--push back on a few boxed stock characters. Somebody writes an interesting new take on a Lolita, or a femme fatale, or something like that, and it takes off (note a Lolita doesn't have to be a pubescent girl, a 20yo female can be one to a 40yo male. So plenty of Lolitas in Lit).

So when you look at your work objectively--and this question I might expect a different distribution of answers for male and female writers--how often do you think you have, consciously or unconsciously, used one of those tropes and made it your own? I know there will be plenty "I do not do that" answers. But honestly. And don't you love the results sometimes? Want to give examples from your stories? I know I plead guilty.

I do have a few "milfy" types in some of my stories as well as more innocent, youthful types(all WIP, but some are about ready to be sent or looked at via beta readers/editors). I notice that the women in my stories tend to be sassy. Some are very much so, very free-spirited, playful, comfortable with expressing their beautiful selves, and not being shy about using the power of their feminine wiles and charm as a weapon. Bad Bitches. Others are more girly or ladylike, more innocent and demurer in demeanor but still have a subtle sass to them. Nothing wrong with preferences.

Also, just like us guys, girls have their types and fetishes too. I mean shit like "Twilight" which my girlfriend and her stepmom like, and other stories like "Vampire Chronicles" or anything with werewolves and vampires is one example of that. And speaking of milfs and their charm, I know a lot of girls do have a thing for the "daddy" type of guy as much as us guys like our milfs. I mean, girls do enjoy tropes of their own. It's not just a "male gaze" thing. And there are girls that definitely like milfs and femme fatales.

And if we're talking about femme fatales, a femme fatale is just a capable and classy baddy that has a deadly side. A charming dangerous woman that knows her way around guns and guys? What's not to like? And speaking of which, I do have a femme fatale story in the works with dangerous spy games and luxury lifestyles. And I'm not sorry.

 

[onehitwanda]

Becky was a waitress. No wait, she was a librarian. But not like a bookish boring librarian. She didn't have glasses. Well, she did, but not like big librarian glasses, normal glasses - not exactly sexy but not unsexy either. Actually she'd had a few jobs. She once worked at Alton Towers for a summer. See, she's fun! She's also smart, but not, like, intimidatingly smart. And kind. Her work at the library involves her working with special needs children. But not like everyday. Only on Tuesdays when she goes round on the book mobile. Her favourite singer is Susan Vega.

Becky...actually the name Becky probably gives the wrong impression. Let's call her Lucy. No wait that's too 'I Love Lucy'. We can call her Fiona, as long as you all promise not to think of Shrek...

Anyway Fiona lost her virginity at 18 to a guy she'd been dating for a couple of months. But not like on her 18th birthday. I don't want you to think of her as cheap. Her birthday was in February and they slept together in May. It was alright - not great not terrible and they did it a few more times before they broke up. No drama, he was going to Edinburgh University and she was going to Southampton and it seemed like too much work. She studied Marine Biology. Not that she dreamt of being a mermaid or anything. She just likes tropical fish. But not to an obsessive degree.

She has breasts obviously, but it's probably best not to focus on them too much. She's not flat chested but she's not exactly Lola Ferarri either. Like, if a Peeping Tom caught a glimpse of her while she was in the changing rooms at River Island he'd be like 'Yep, those are breasts' and have a reasonably satisfying wank but it wouldn't make his list of Top Ten Peeps or anything.

So Fiona has some sex. Not as much as her friend Sophie but way more than her other friend Lucy (we can use Lucy here, I'm only going to name drop her a couple of times so whatever...) Usually Fiona will wait for the second date to have sex but she's also done it on the first date and sometimes the third or not at all. She didn't feel bad about that single one night stand but that guy turned out not to be as hot as she thought. By the way, all this information is off a body count of...erm...seven? That sounds okay for a 25 year old, right? She orgasms sometimes and not others. Hard to pin down why - a combination of factors really. Her blow-job technique is good enough that none of her boyfriends have ever complained about it.

Come to think of it, my portfolio is lacking a bit of diversity. Could we make her black? So, all that stuff above, keep all of that, don't go adding in any stereotypes or anything - no sass or attitude or enormous earrings or weave or anything and definitely don't mentally add any weight. What ever mental image you've already got just keep that. She's exactly the same only she's now Black British. Got it?

She sounds lovely.

 

[Djmac1031]

As a male writer, my stories are, of course, going to gravitate (mostly, I have rare exceptions) towards the male POV.

And no matter how respectful and modern my male characters are, it still becomes a case of Male Gaze:

"I respected her as a person and a woman, but still, I couldn't help but look at her tits, because they were amazing."

Male Gaze is simply a fact of erotica.

No, not ALL erotica. I'm not speaking for all writers who write other gender perspectives.

Just saying it exists as a standard for many stories, and nothing wrong with that per say.

As long as we learn to behave ourselves in real life when it comes to how we treat others.

 

[Dearelliot]

I adore brown eyed, dark haired, tall thin busty Milfs and Gilfs, and my stories reflect my taste. All of them are dominant, and none of them are under the age of 40...and most are over 50.
I doubt I could even write a story about an eighteen year old blonde woman.

 

[elizaloo]

My first story here was a complete trope; sexy MILF aunt seduces/is seduced by her 'nephew' - actually husband's nephew as that was the situation I found myself in IRL; albeit he was only heavily flirting and it spiked a story for me.

I tend to write women who are me also; natural white blonde, green eyed and curvy. I've been told my ass is a trope in itself.

 

[TheRedChamber]

She sounds lovely.

Thank you.

Wait..fuck...I've just realized that 'perfectly normal average girl' is a trope as well. Usually in stories where they get abducted by aliens and sent to the Sky Harem of the Lizard King of Asblarty Seven.

 

[gunhilltrain]

You'll have to judge that for yourselves; I'm not going to analyze my own work in that kind of detail. The Geek Pride story will be from a female first-person POV. There is another, unrelated one coming out with the same thing. The most recent one I published has a third woman describing her experiences.

Are they believable? I don't know; I just made it up.

 

[tenyari]

interesting observation how much fiction--in various formats--has one of a handful classic female character tropes written for the male gaze at its core

I kind of hate the term 'male gaze' because what do we expect of men and women but to be attracted to each other?

What exactly is wrong with us following nearly 4 billion years of biological impulses - evolved and refined from "hey you're a pretty cute zygote" to what we have now?

Erotica is bound to slam up against the people that want the world to be asexual. I'd say 'F-em' but that's exactly what they don't want anyone doing.

My work... my work is very much rooted in these tropes. I'm writing in the CMNF genre. Naked female protagonists who are getting into all kinds of erotic situations and having fun in so doing.

What I'm doing is having my characters enjoy and take control in their sexuality and sexual appeal. Which I find a lot more natural than trying to rebel against the last few billion years.

There is such a thing as unwanted gaze, that persists even when you tell the person to bug off. But stopping harassment is no reason to end all sexual flirtation and visual enjoyment. Doing that just feels like over-reach doomed to fail as it slams up against basic biology.

 

[John_Vandermeer]

I kind of hate the term 'male gaze' because what do we expect of men and women but to be attracted to each other?

What exactly is wrong with us following nearly 4 billion years of biological impulses - evolved and refined from "hey you're a pretty cute zygote" to what we have now?

Erotica is bound to slam up against the people that want the world to be asexual. I'd say 'F-em' but that's exactly what they don't want anyone doing.

My work... my work is very much rooted in these tropes. I'm writing in the CMNF genre. Naked female protagonists who are getting into all kinds of erotic situations and having fun in so doing.

What I'm doing is having my characters enjoy and take control in their sexuality and sexual appeal. Which I find a lot more natural than trying to rebel against the last few billion years.

There is such a thing as unwanted gaze, that persists even when you tell the person to bug off. But stopping harassment is no reason to end all sexual flirtation and visual enjoyment. Doing that just feels like over-reach doomed to fail as it slams up against basic biology.

No question that sexual activity often starts with the sexualisation of those we are attracted to. And that all that evolution has led us to a situation where the gender sexualization is asymmetrical. I don't take the term "male gaze" as judgemental, though I do recognize it is meant as such by some groups: particularly those that invented it. I merely recognize it as real.

As I said, I pleaded guilty of shameless trope borrowing at very beginning. And of male gaze sexualization. One of my best received novella chapters--votes and comments--narrated a trip to the mall, where the FMC "dolls up" store after store for the MMC: hair/nails/makeup, shoes, tops/bottoms, and finally lingerie. I obviouly have no idea the demographics of the readers, but even if they were a bunch of males with the same fetishes I have, it struck a chord. The FMC in this case was an easy to spot cross between a femme fatale, and a Lolita.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Surprised that DILFs has never caught on. "Dads I'd Like to . . ."

 

[gunhilltrain]

Also, maybe there should be a male equivalent of Lolita - all of these 30-something teachers who have affairs with their underage students. A number of these guys eventfully drop a dime on their teachers. I doubt that I would have done that. But maybe we only see the few cases where they get caught. How many more remain in private?

 

[ElectricBlue]

Also, maybe there should be a male equivalent of Lolita - all of these 30-something teachers who have affairs with their underage students. A number of these guys eventfully drop a dime on their teachers. I doubt that I would have done that. But maybe we only see the few cases where they get caught. How many more remain in private?

There is.

Go find Tampa, by Alissa Nutting, loosely based on any number of cases involving female teachers seducing teenage boys.

Here in Australia there's just been closure on a high profile case involving a headmistress and teenage girls (three sisters), which involved extradition from Israel.

 

[gunhilltrain]

There is.

Go find Tampa, by Alissa Nutting, loosely based on any number of cases involving female teachers seducing teenage boys.

Here in Australia there's just been closure on a high profile case involving a headmistress and teenage girls (three sisters), which involved extradition from Israel.

Of course, but what is the term used for these guys - a term equivalent to Lolita? This is none. Just "under-aged guys."

How about "Hermie," as in the narrator of Summer of '42? Not very good, I admit.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Surprised that DILFs has never caught on. "Dads I'd Like to . . ."

Not as popular as MILF, but DILF is used enough that it's made it into various dictionaries:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dilf

I think I posted this a few weeks back but here it is again

 

[gunhilltrain]

Not as popular as MILF, but DILF is used enough that it's made it into various dictionaries:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dilf

I think I posted this a few weeks back but here it is again .

That's one of the advantages of being on Lit. I'm always learning something new.

 

[Comshaw]

I know I already started a MILFs thread a couple of weeks back...that almost came to blows. Just kidding. But I still find it an interesting observation how much fiction--in various formats--has one of a handful classic female character tropes written for the male gaze at its core: the four mentioned not being exhaustive of course but being some key ones. Even as we expect more female agency than they did, say, in the 1950s and earlier. Even as more writers and readers--female and male--push back on a few boxed stock characters. Somebody writes an interesting new take on a Lolita, or a femme fatale, or something like that, and it takes off (note a Lolita doesn't have to be a pubescent girl, a 20yo female can be one to a 40yo male. So plenty of Lolitas in Lit).

So when you look at your work objectively--and this question I might expect a different distribution of answers for male and female writers--how often do you think you have, consciously or unconsciously, used one of those tropes and made it your own? I know there will be plenty "I do not do that" answers. But honestly. And don't you love the results sometimes? Want to give examples from your stories? I know I plead guilty.

How often do I use a "trope" in my stories?
Let's first look at the definition of trope as it pertains to literature from dictionary.com: 1)a recurring theme or motif, as in literature or art: 2)a convention or device that establishes a predictable or stereotypical representation of a character, setting, or scenario in a creative work .
According to the first definition, every one of my stories has what you describe as a "trope" character in it. Every...damn...one. Why do I say that? Because every character type that can be written has been written somewhere by someone. So EVERY character type used is trope.

An example: The "High Noon" character trope, a good guy, or small group of good guys, facing off against the bad guys and coming out on top. How many times has that one been played out? The movies "Outland", "Serenity", any Jack Reacher story or movie, "The Karate Kid", "Aliens", "Seven Samurai" "The Magnificent Seven" just to name a few. So there isn't any way to write a story along those lines, with those character types, without using a "trope". That said, every one of the aforementioned are, even though they follow a reoccurring theme, different and unique. The character type may be the same, but they are different and unique because of the makeup of the characters. Malcolm Reynolds isn't the same person Kambei is nor will he respond in the same way. Because of that, the character types might be in the same category, or a trope if you will, but the characters are unique and different, which makes the story unique and different. Unique and different most times translates into engaging and entertaining.

If you mean the second definition of trope, I can't think of a story where I used a stereotypical trope character. I try not to by investing each character with as much depth as I can; which has a tendency to do away with the predictability of a character. But now that you have me thinking on it, I'll have to go back and review my stories to see if I have or not.


Comshaw